Other games and Cyberpunk 2077: what could latter borrow from them?

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SigilFey;n9799221 said:
Hmmm...more details?

I mean more of the core mechanics (how it works), not the tactics (which character does what in what order and to whom). that comes with "how it works".

Wizardry, M&M and the like are all party based blobbers. What I mean with what I said is.... Imagine (I can't give a better reference) that there was no 6 to 8 member party in Wiz8, but it was just a singular character with 6 to 8 action points to spend during his phase of queuing up actions.

Or, perhaps a bit more clearly... Think about the VATS thing in the new Fallout games (excluding 4 where the game doesn't pause), but with far more mechanical depth through more options for actions (itneractivity, movement, shooting, evading, companion commands...) and having a continuous nature (that after a sequence, it pauses again for another batch of actions -- unless the player specifically decides to continue in real time). That kind of thing, roughly.

Mass Effect games were cover-shooters with a party command feature as far as I know (I only played the first, but the following games were said to be even more of shooters). DA:O was a BG clone (realtime with pause combat, which is not bad, but that's not what I'm after), and DA:I looked like a third person hack and slash where you could switch characters on the fly. None of those really work the way I suggested.
 
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kofeiiniturpa;n9799341 said:
...just a singular character with 6 to 8 action points to spend during his phase of queuing up actions.

I follow now. So, my character would have skills in, say, gunplay, melee, tech, medical, etc. I spend points on whatever skills to pull off actions "every turn". So, I could queue up 3 points to suppress an area, 1 point to hunker down behind cover, and my last 2 points to use a medical device. I really like the idea, and I do hope they incorporate something like that. Something purely tactical.

I would like to see it somehow involve friendly NPCs as well. Perhaps, a number of "Tactical Points" (Tac-Points) that would either regenerate over time or that we had to earn by doing certain things in combat. We could then use those points like a currency during combat to call for covering fire, set up a coordinated attack, specify a target for another person, pull off a cool, Matrix-style diving attack to get out of a bad spot...

It might be interesting if the Tac-Points only accrue when things go badly. Get nailed in a gunfight and take a huge chunk of damage -- gain a Tac-Point. Two friendly NPCs get taken out -- gain a Tac-Point. Choose to zig when you were supposed to zag, get completely cut off from your team behind enemy lines -- gain three Tac-Points. In a way, throwing a bone to the player and avoiding the dreaded "reload / retry" thing.
 
metalmaniac21;n9782841 said:
Let's try summarize all suggestions that sound like "Look how X done in Y, it's something Cyberpunk 2077 could use" here.

Taking this a little more broad than the 1 ,2, 3 approach and looking at RPGs element by element:

World Design / Setting - Open World (TW3, GTAV, Horizon Zero Dawn) mixed with near future tech noir society (Deus Ex Human Revolution, Deus Ex Mankind Divided, Mass Effect 2 (Illium & Lair of the Shadow Broker), Remember Me (otherwise awful action game ... but really interesting near future setting)). All of this mixes in with level design and quest design when dealing with an open world game because all of the quests are out there in the world. Use of Vertical space may end up being really interesting. Mixing the difficulties of the open world with a cyberpunk milieu is essential for the game to be successful. So mixing the design of the former listed games with the atmosphere of the latter listed games will be important. Also would really like there to be day / night & weather cycles.

Something I don't think is necessary is massive interactivity with items in the world like most Bethesda games have. I mean it's cool ... but I'd rather see memory space and development time devoted to other places. Finally I hope virtual reality is it's own really interesting place in CP since its escapism is such a central theme of the setting.

Quest Design - TW3, Horizon. This goes hand in hand with the above stuff ... these two games do open world quest design correctly. The only think I would prefer they do differently is give a very specific location where the next part of the quest ought to be ... so that it makes sense that you know the specific place on your map. Or if you only get a neighborhood ... have the whole neighborhood highlighted ... not just a pin-pointed spot. Obviously their should be main quests as well as side quests and other activities as well.

Exploration - Zelda: Breath of the Wild - It should be a focus of the game and important in getting the full flavor of the world ... but not essential to completing the game. There should be little tidbits of information that effect your ability to converse about topics with NPCs ... but nothing that's absolutely necessary. There should definitely be rewards for the player that checks out the areas that are off the beaten path.

Factions - Morrowind - but more restrictive. First of all ... have factions. I love the idea of having factions and making it so you can only be a member of so many. Certain factions have principles that mean you can join other opposed factions. Also perhaps have a faction cap? One person can only be a member of so many things before they run out of time. Make all the factions feel distinct from one another ... and they all have opinions of the other factions.

Character Development - This one is tricky. I'm honestly not sure of a game that I think would translate well over to this one. The best I can use is the source material CP 2020 rather than some other video game. A huge part of it is the initial character customization I'm gonna quote my on what I would like to see.

1. First name - you get to choose it.
2. Appearance - you choose from one of ten defaults (south Asian, east Asian, African, Caucasian & Hispanic ... male and female for each). You can then further customize eye color, hair color & style, scars & tattoos. I personally hope we can't alter facial structures, as it results in a diluted product visually IMO. This also picks your surname for you.
3. Family - choose from one of six families (both parents alive, together - both parents alive but separate - mother deceased - father deceased - both parents deceased w/siblings - orphaned). Choice can effect starting socio-economic status. Gives you a unique quest line and dialogue.
4. Best friend - choose from one of six NPCs (a description of each history is included) - gives you a unique quest line and dialogue.
5. Worst enemy - choose from one of six NPCs (a description of each history is included) - gives you a unique quest line and dialogue.
6. Former romantic interest - choose from one of six NPCs (3 male, 3 female) or the option to have none (a description of each history is included) - gives you a unique quest line and dialogue.
7. Role - choose a role (with set background info included) from the nine classic options.
8. Stats - I think there should be six stats - Body Type (strength & constitution) - Reflexes - Empathy - Cool - Intelligence - Tech. I think luck, attractiveness & movement allowance should be scrapped. Luck and attractiveness because in a video game all it will result in is a % increase and MA because it seems like the type of thing that could result in some really complicated coding.

Now then the next part is how your character develops through the story as far as stat & skill progression goes. I really hope the game borrows heavily from CP 2020 here too (with a little Elder Scrolls V Skyrim mixed in). I hope it's mostly skill based ... quoting myself again below as to how the skills might be organized.
Body Type – controls base damage for all melee attacks, total hit points & carry capacityReflexes – controls base damage for all ranged attacks, stealth & damage avoided while dodging or drivingIntelligence – controls information available to player, ease of searching & ability to hackTech – controls ability to craft items, modify items and use various forms of techEmpathy – controls dialogue available to player, ability to influence & prices received from salesCool – controls base reputation with NPCs, ability to resist effects & ability to bluff
BrawlingStealthEducationPhotograph & FilmHuman PerceptionStreetwise
MeleeDodgeNoticeSmithyBargainWardrobe and Grooming
FencingDrivingTrackFirst AidPersuasionIntimidation
EndurancePilotElectronicsPick PocketBriberyInterrogation
AthleticsSmall armsBiologyChemistrySeductionResistance
Heavy WeaponsLong armsInterfaceCybertechLeadershipDeception
Toughness (Nomad)Combat Sense (Solo)Business (Corp.)Jury Rig (Techie)Credibility (Media)Street Deal (Fixer)
Cyberwarfare (Netrunner) Performance (Rockerboy)Authority (Cop)






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...
All skills would be available from the start, each role gets 6 skills (including their special) from the start plus an additional 4 skill points to spend where they wish. Rather than experience points, completing quests gets you skill points you can invest in new skills (or sometimes just cash or gear). The PC will have a total of 37 skills and 222 (37 skills x 6 ranks) potential skill ranks to invest in with something less than that (maybe 150-ish) of skill points available in the game. Here is a suggested list of career skill possibilities.
I
RockerboyPerformanceStreetwiseResistanceWardrobe & GroomingBrawlingSeduction
NetrunnerCyberwarfareElectronicsInterfaceEducationDeceptionStreetwise
MediaCredibilityHuman PerceptionPersuasionPhotograph & FilmBriberyInterrogation
SoloCombat SenseNoticeStealthSmall ArmsLong ArmsBrawling
TechieJury RigChemistrySmithyElectronicsBargainFirst Aid
NomadToughnessNoticeEnduranceBrawlingDrivingMelee
CorporateBusinessEducationHuman PerceptionBargainPersuasionWardrobe & Grooming
FixerStreet DealStreetwiseDeceptionBriberySmall ArmsBrawling
CopAuthorityNoticeHuman PerceptionDrivingSmall ArmsBrawling
I

Now how I would like Skyrim to mix in is that in Skyrim using a skill nets you experience towards that skill. I think that is the most natural way to develop
a character I've ever seen. Kudos Skyrim ... you did something right! Now how I imagine that could transfer to a skill point based system like CP 2020 is that you receive skill points for completing quests. However the type of skill point you receive is dependent on what you did to complete the quest. Sneak you way in? +1 SP in reflexes. Rough up your opponent? +1 in Body Type. Hack all their computers? +1 to Intelligence. Talk your way out of it without resorting to violence? +1 in Empathy. That type of system would seem really interesting to me. Thus the skills the character developed would reflect the choices and play style you go through. May not work ... but I think it would be cool.

Choices and Consequences - another part of character development is choices and consequences. Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect 2 and TW3 are the three games I think show this best. TW3 did a good job of making choices matter through the course of the game. As did DAI ... I would love it if CP2077 had a system like Dragon Age Keep if the game ends up having any sequels. Mass Effect 2 was awesome in that the choices you made effected who lived at the end of the game. In the Dark Future of Night City ... I think something like that would be appropriate.

Combat - Mass Effect 3, MGSV, Horizon Zero Dawn. So mixing open world stealth, ranged & melee styles of the latter two games with companions who have abilities as well from ME3 would be my preference. To make all the play styles work with controllers, I think they solution is to make the controller map dependent on the type of weapon you have. Out of combat is one set of actions, in-combat with no weapon or a melee weapon is a second map, and in combat with a ranged weapon is a third. I hope in melee you can parry / block as well as dodge. For companions I like ME3 because it was polished, but you could also give your companions commands. I could live with an ME: Andromeda system where the companions act independently of the PC ... but I like having the control more. The point is I hope it's a game that can function either solo or with a party. I would prefer that you only have party members at times when it makes sense for the story.

User Interface - No game I've played does this really well. UI is normally a mess in RPGs. I would like it if you actually pull out a device and look at it as if your checking it out. You'll need pages for Glossary, Inventory, World Map, Quests, & Character Stats and Skills. . I hope Glossary includes known info on people, places, items, enemies, etc etc. It should basically function like access to the net ... maybe even with the right equipment access to Virtual Reality at all times. Inventory I think should be highly limited. Maybe Deus Ex HR is the best example I can think of. I know some people don't like that grid style. But I do ... and I think something other than the TW3 weight system where you could carry 20 swords at once would be appropriate. I like the idea of having storage space everywhere too ... so you can keep extra stuff on your bike or in your car ... your storage at home can only hold so much ... etc etc. Seems like the most realistic system. World Map ... self explanatory. Although as I said above ... only highlight a specific spot if we are told the next objective is exactly there. Quests - nothing to complicated. However I would like it if the completed quests show up in chronological order to make them easy to find after the fact and make it so you can read easily. Character page ought to have skills, & stats. I'm not sure if cyberware should be its own page, part of inventory or part of character.

Oh and one more thing. HUD has to be totally customizable like TW3. Let me turn off the minimap please.

Crafting - Fallout 4. Make it so you can only craft stuff at specific locations. Make weapons clothing & cyberwear highly customizable in both appearance and functionality. The one thing I would do differently is don't make it about collecting junk to craft the items. In cyberpunk it would make more sense if you normally have to purchase the items, or components if you can make them youself as a techie or whatever. However ... running around trying to find 10 of thingamabob x has never really been all that fun. Make crafting economy based and make money really important. That's cybrepunk.

Story - TW3. It ought to be both narratively compelling as well as choice driven. It's as complicated as that. Awesome characters, awesome adventures, great dialogue, cool mysteries, branching narratives, and an end world state that actually reflects the choices you made in the game. Don't go back to just before the main quest ended once it's complete. I know that's asking a lot ... but I have faith it can be done. Also get the right balance between player character customization and personality.

So yeah that's what I would like. Though I'm super flexible and will be happy with whatever they come up with so long as it works :).
 
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For narrative design, I'd look at the original Fallouts and possibly New Vegas. The Witcher games were way too heavyhandedly scripted, and so were Biowares games, and on the other side, Bethesda's stuff is way too loose where nothing matters and nothing makes a difference.

An open, player driven narrative that gives a strong initiative to start moving forward and then builds up from strong characterizations and stories at the side of the road, so to speak, to a reactive conclusion based on how the player has played and where he reached with his ending. In such manner that everything you do might count towards something even while you are "not on the main mission".

I think a good start would be setting the PC as a new arrival in NC. He needs to build up a certain rep or earn a certain amount of money (or what ever) to be able to reach someone or something that'll push the main mission and story further. The PC is given completely free reign on how to earn what he needs, but what ever he does and to whomever to get what is needed, there will be consequences. He might be able to stay somewhat neutral, but there will always be someone who's toes he has stepped on, which in turn makes his life harder in certain ways and closes off certain doors in the future.

That kind of freeform playing that still keeps track of what is being done and reacts to it, would be neat. Don't tell the player how he needs to play and what he needs to do, just give him the initial direction and set him loose, let him weave his own net. But also dare to make him accountable of his actions and make the world remember. Anything's allowed, but everything action has a consequence, big or small.

For the story. A highly personal storyline that does not inherently involve anyone else, and can be completed that way too.
 
Hi,
i guess that it could be darker as about as gothic 2 was by atmosphere.
For example, White orchand in witcher 3, it was between cursed well by "devil" (of the well :) ), burned blacksmith's house, bandit camps,
drowners everywhere, tons of gold everywhere, gryph killing everyone, undead wraith on cemenery, everyone would kill you for boots, they hang guy there, yet nobody cares.
There are people sitting in tavern playing gwent and drinking,
there is this good fellow you save at start of the game, providing you goods all the time, staying there days and nights.
Nilfgard garrison, they are just staying there, whistling, sitting - and 10 steps out of their doors there is poisonous gas, drowners, barrels of explosive, wolves, etc... :D

I think that problem with this is that events only happen by processing in quest.
E.g. three guys want to fight Geralt, but only after he finishes drinking and walks to them. True gentlemans :D

Also, these colorful sunsets - of course it is natural, and from time to time it looks like this, but i would prefer to have more stable weather,
meaning overall darker would be better for white orchand. Normal days, darker nights, no colorful sunsets.

It would be very nice also to have milions of background noises, just to feel place alive.
In CP, it could be - phone ringing, car horn, traffic lights, people blowing noses, farting, crying, laughing, etc...
 
Rawls;n9803111 said:
Quest Design - TW3, Horizon. This goes hand in hand with the above stuff ... these two games do open world quest design correctly. The only think I would prefer they do differently is give a very specific location where the next part of the quest ought to be ... so that it makes sense that you know the specific place on your map. Or if you only get a neighborhood ... have the whole neighborhood highlighted ... not just a pin-pointed spot. Obviously their should be main quests as well as side quests and other activities as well.
Well, these two has good scripted scenes, but gameplay-wise it's boring yet mandatory batman vision all the time. I'd say Fallout: New Vegas again did better job from a roleplaying perspective without compromising story, enabling options for different builds, not for replaying value but to ensure *everyone* could finish a quest, of course with different outcomes. Even experimental Lonesome Road still worked, and that was a linear adventure, like modern "cinematic" shooters.
 
Rawls;n9803111 said:
I think luck, attractiveness & movement allowance should be scrapped. Luck and attractiveness because in a video game all it will result in is a % increase and MA because it seems like the type of thing that could result in some really complicated coding.
How so? Luck is good stat since Morrowind, enabling some crazy things like casting otherwise impossible spells from magic school player never studied or land crits in Fallout and finding some *legendary* loot. Attractiveness and Emphaty are not the same thing and most of the stats already just add/mult skills and other parameters. MA is necessary whenever there's a chance of having melee combat and parkour. In a video game equivalent it's a mix of Agility and Speed.
 
metalmaniac21;n9810241 said:
Luck is good stat since Morrowind, enabling some crazy things like casting otherwise impossible spells from magic school player never studied or land crits in Fallout and finding some *legendary* loot.
Strongly disagree. Luck only effects %s of how likely things are to occur or drop. Not interesting.

metalmaniac21;n9810241 said:
Attractiveness and Emphaty are not the same thing and most of the stats already just add/mult skills and other parameters.
I know ... but again attractiveness is going to be a % increase to reputation and not much else with perhaps some comments from NPCs here or there. Not interesting as a mechanic in a cRPG.

metalmaniac21;n9810241 said:
MA is necessary whenever there's a chance of having melee combat and parkour. In a video game equivalent it's a mix of Agility and Speed.
Sliding scale for this is a coding nightmare. Of the three I agree it's the most useful ... but it seems like it would greatly complicate other combat design decisions. Could be wrong about that ... but it's my perception.
 
Rawls;n9810331 said:
Strongly disagree. Luck only effects %s of how likely things are to occur or drop. Not interesting.

It’s also not so distracting that it’s in the way and needs to go.

Iirc, also in the PnP you could apply luck to your skilltests manually to gain a little advantage.

I know ... but again attractiveness is going to be a % increase to reputation and not much else with perhaps some comments from NPCs here or there. Not interesting as a mechanic in a cRPG.

This is a bit of a ”forest from the trees” situation here. There’s plenty of character interaction you can do and reactivity to gain with ATT and the related skills. It doesn’t need to be just % for rep and random npc comments.

And also, MA has plenty of possibilities in gameplay otherwise.

Think big.
 
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With Cp2077 and the integration of gameplay mechanics related to the gun combat, I thought about what kind of system could be built so that every aspect and action taken to use and control the weapon in a manner that would allow a degree of skill and finesse without the game becoming a modern day standard shooter. I guess it's a way of taking existing shooter mechanics that's really taken for granted and turning them into a more realistic approach when it comes to using guns by having the player perform all necessary actions required to use it.

Simple Method: As with most shooters, you have simple and straight forward controls related to each action of the gun. Aim, shoot, reload with automatic reload after each magazine, and is quiet simplistic and with any real firearm there is much more to the actions of operating it then those main aspects and it would be cool to have these mechanics shown more in depth to represent these actions.

Complex Method: For example, imagine while you're playing the game and you're holding a gun of your choice. There are two sets of controls related to the mechanics used to operate the gun and each actions is mapped to its own controls or buttons.

One set of controls are the guns preparation actions, all mapped to separate buttons. Loading magazine and mag release button for unloading the magazine as separate actions, charging weapon is another, weapon malfunctions and clearing. cock and decock, Slide stop and release are separate actions for pistols. Switch weapon attachments setting on the fly, stock position, lights, scope and sights etc...

Once the weapon is loaded and hot, then the weapon is ready for combat and then you hit a button to battle ready the weapon and from here you can perform more traditional style gun combat. Controls for Aim, Shoot, hold for auto, repeated trigger press for semi auto and the action to switch fire modes, until weapon magazine is empty then its back to weapon prep and reload buttons combination. It sounds like a lot but this is where player skill could come into play as the better you are at doing these actions efficiently and in order the weapon combat will be smooth and quick as to someone who might break under pressure during a shoot out. Button context could look something like what Crysis does when you weapon modify. In this mode of weapon prep, you are vulnerable until your weapon is fully battle ready.

If done right it could be cool, if not it could be a nice mess and not translate well into a game. It would surely give weapons in the game a new appreciation. And would really make the weapons mean something.


 
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BeastModeIron;n9810671 said:
If done right it could be cool, if not it could be a nice mess and not translate well into a game. It would surely give weapons in the game a new appreciation. And would really make the weapons mean something.
What you suggested, while it certainly beings an unprecedented amount of realism to video game firearms use is a "bit" too complex.
 
Controls, Animations, Movement: Tomb Raider/MGSV

CDPR tried to go with more "weighty"/realistic type of control, but it really highlighted flaws in their technical skills, and it ended up having ( almost comically) opposite results...supernaturally agile acrobat/swordmaster ended up feeling far too clumsy and sluggish.

Progression system...Arcanum

I think conceptually, this is some of the best out there:


- Easy to comprehend and intuitive...all information is easily discerned from a single page
- Good balance of being able to define character and flexibility...( unlike Pillars and Baldur's Gate), you can create typical stereotype characters( melee half ogre), but also experiment and create more fun/flawed that still work by combining them with other mechanics
- Progression involves economy and npcs/world/quests...trainers in the world can teach you higher rank skills ( in logical sense...guards/combat, merchants/selling, etc), legendary ones have their own ( interesting) questlines that you need to complete
- Maxed stats add additional and useful benefits, making it much more rewarding
- Stats are not rigid, and are useful across different ( varied) builds ( like Willpower for fighters)
- Uses singular "resource", learning point, on each level up, which can be used on everything: stats/skills/spells/tech recipes/health/etc. This makes decision making much more engaging and system more "deep"
- Two systems that offset one another, integrated logically in whole setting...magic affinity vs technology

Exploration... Worldbuilding: Mankind Divide, Mechanics: Breath of the Wild

Sandbox Gameplay and companions( also from gameplay perspective): MGSV

Weapons/Itemization...Souls series.

Level Design: Dishonored
 

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Suhiira;n9814931 said:
What you suggested, while it certainly beings an unprecedented amount of realism to video game firearms use is a "bit" too complex.

Its just a matter of pressing the correct and corresponding buttons. It would be more suitable in a simulation style of "game"
 
BeastModeIron;n9828101 said:
Its just a matter of pressing the correct and corresponding buttons. It would be more suitable in a simulation style of "game"
And just how do you implement this on consoles with their very limited set of available buttons/controls?
 

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Suhiira;n9828181 said:
And just how do you implement this on consoles with their very limited set of available buttons/controls?

Depends on how many buttons is required and its not a limited as you think with sub control schemes. Consoles aren't as limited as everyone believes.
 
Sounds suspiciously like a recurring quicktime event, kind of like boxing in Witcher 2 but happening all the time. I don't know about that...
 
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BeastModeIron;n9828101 said:
Its just a matter of pressing the correct and corresponding buttons. It would be more suitable in a simulation style of "game"

 
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