Oversexualizaton in Cyberpunk

[Sydanyo]

What people in this thread seem to be missing, perhaps because they don't know Cyberpunk 2020, is that the C-SWAT guy holding a gun to her head has no magical powers to make her kneel and surrender.

Anyone with an EMP of 1 or 2 has a significant amount of cyberware, and looking at a full body replacement with armblades like that, I can't but think she's a solo. I mean, sure, some other class might have gotten armblades like that (for what reason though, I don't know, since they're made for killing people), but a full body replacement and weaponry? If she's a solo, there's a good chance she's not exactly flat out outgunned by the C-SWAT solo. Depends of course on their stats and skills, and whether they're on pharmaceuticals. The C-SWAT most likely isn't, while she most likely is. Imagine her having a REF of 10 plus cyberware and bioware (12 or 14 maybe, can't remember exactly), with a combat sense of 10 (well who knows how elite she is), and melee of 10.

Add drugs, and you've got a solo rolling 25-30 + d10 as initiative, while the cops shooting at her roll something like 5-7 + d10. Yeah, if she wanted, she could have cut them down long before the C-SWAT arrived. The slow-motion bullets also tell a story about her massive REF. Amped up solos can actually dodge bullets.

In any case, it could be a die toss between the C-SWAT and the psycho. Why do you think he recruits her? They can kit her out in new cyber and bioware, but they can't magically raise her combat sense and other abilities. Meaning, she's most likely highly trained and experienced to begin with. Why send anything else against elite solos in cyberpsychosis?

In any event, the only reason she would be kneeling like that is because she has made the conscious choice - as much as she's self-aware in her psychosis - to have the C-SWAT officer kill her. Suicide by cop. It's evident from how she simply closes her eyes and accepts the inevitable.

To be in a "submissive pose" she would first have to have been subdued. She hasn't been. She's in that pose completely and perfectly willingly. Whether that pose is sexy or not, since it's completely and utterly willing (she wants to die), it should be all good, right?

 

[blarty]

There are many that would think that this scene creates a far worse portrayal of a sexualised nature, than the cyberpunk trailer....

[video=youtube_share;ykiGd-qzcwg]http://youtu.be/ykiGd-qzcwg[/video]

And that was released over 30 years ago....

 

[Garrison72]

To be in a "submissive pose" she would first have to have been subdued. She hasn't been. She's in that pose completely and perfectly willingly. Whether that pose is sexy or not, since it's completely and utterly willing (she wants to die), it should be all good, right?

Exactly. She's resigned herself to her fate since she closes her eyes at the end, waiting for execution. She hasn't submitted to anything, she's given up. But panties have a way of throwing some people off.

 

[CadetSF]

As Max Headroom says, "I am the ultimate pro-pro-product". Sex and sexuality factor heavily because sex sells and in the cyberpunk future everyone is their own product, put on the market for the right price. I honestly think the trailer is pretty fine as she is more covered up than a bikini and there's nothing sexual at all about her pose. If anything as others have said, the hint of sexuality is more of a false flag before you start watching the bullets impacting and ricocheting off her body.

Cyberpunk is and should be about extremes. You should have people with the Zeiss eyes, bodysculpt, and even sexual implants (Deus Ex had a nice side story about that in Hengsha) focused solely in the flesh and the opposite of the extreme of the physically decrepit hacker living and existing as completely within cyberspace as possible.

 

[dalmacija1]

@C. MacLeod
I agree with much of your posts and it is clear that you're well educated and familiar with the world o CyberPunk 2020 and CyberPunk as a whole.
I was too young to play the original Cyberpunk 2020 or read its books (I'm very thankful to you and the whole community for sharing some of the links from original books so that we can enjoy the world and its setting and be prepared for CyberPunk 2077).


Personally I think the question of this thread can be found in many links of the original book (I haven't found it but can we have some thread solely made of links from MacLeod, wisdom000 and other guys on one place 'cause those are really fine and interesting literature that can help the newbies to find out the true CyberPunk atmosphere?).

Although there are many interesting questions I think this thread got on the wrong train and It's mainly used to present the problems of modern day society that in the CyberPunk world are more flexibile and liberal. But we cannot deny the fact that in the past 20 years a lot of liberalisation happened in the sex rights area and that in some way sex problems of CyberPunk worlds are the modern day society problems.

In the game i want mature world 'cause that was promised and don't forget it's just a game. It wont change the world, nor make it a better or worst place, it only might change your perspection on some "hot" questions that media today is presenting.

 

[dreambled]

The problem with this is that it is always the women that are the ones who are the sexual object, and this prevails in video games the most. You cannot make excuses for this if only the women are the ones who come to mind when you think of "Sex" or any other word derived from that. If Cyberpunk has a sexual attitude about it that says it prevails for all genders, then don't just show women who are wearing skin tight outfits that only cover their torso. Show us some scantly clad sexy looking men. I don't just mean one or two, if things are to be equal then women should share the same fashion sense as men do and vice versa. Meaning women should be all decked out in armor, or wearing corporate suits, to barely wearing anything at all, and you should be able to see that with the same quantity in what men wear.

 

[username_3641919]

Yea that's kinda nonsense. They do get attention from females, don't worry.

And the game is set in 2077, I am sure they can heavily try balancing the revealing outfits between men and women. The important thing is to have variety. Have some women wear sexualized clothes, and have others wear "normal ones." Same with men. All the while making sure both are interesting characters and not just skin.

Biologically, what he says makes sense though. Human beings have developed a system of procreation that that puts the woman in the role of attractor and men in the role of responder. That's not cultural, it's the result of (or possibly a contributing factor to) the successful evolution of our species. It's also not wrong, immoral or unfair. You see the same thing everywhere else in the animal kingdom as well. One gender puts on the big showy displays to attract a mate (usually the male) while the other responds to those displays. It just happens that with our little group of mammals, it's the females who put themselves on display to attract a mate.

Now intellect, self-awareness, societal evolution and other factors, have basically made that mating dance more complex, more intricate and given it more steps, but the underlying beat of the music is hardcoded into our genetics. We are simply predisposed to react to sexuality in a certain way. There is PLENTY of room for variation though and I'm the last person to try and restrict it. In fact, it would be entirely hypocritical of me. But rationally, I still have to acknowledge that human behaviour has been in development for millions of years, longer even than there have been actual humans, and we are all subject to it. What we see now is just accumulation of countless revisions.

So that being said, it's easy for me to dismiss the misplaced outrage many have regarding the oversexualization of media and the so-called sexual objectification of women. We as a society decry the practice, yet it continues on unabated. In fact, it's picking up steam as we let more and more of our cultural defensiveness drop. And the reason is that it's NOT unnatural. People, men and women, are just slipping into the roles that evolution has carved out for us.

It may sound like I'm some kind of hardcore traditionalist when it comes to gender roles, but I'm not. As much as I know why we behave as we do, I also see nothing wrong with using our brains and deciding to swim against the stream. As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing wrong with men wanting to "pretty themselves up" in order to attract a woman (or a man, that matter), because I know there are women out there (yes, and men), who are looking for exactly that. And that's cool by me. Just because we are born with a genetic imperative to behave in a certain way, doesn't mean we need to, or should feel the need to follow it. But we also shouldn't be surprised when most people do.

So give me the sexy chrome cyberbabes, please. I won't disparage them for 'displaying their colors' if they don't disparage me for 'responding' to it.

 

[Sydanyo]

The fact that we usually see women, and not men, in sexy attire and poses, could also be that the majority of the people in the western world seems to agree that most women are beautiful, while most men are not. In other words, if I were to make more generalizations, most men prefer women because of their beauty, and a large portion of women think women are better on the eyes as well.

You have to please the majority.

Also, one would think the guy, even in his armor and headgear, might be attractive to some, right? A clearly well-built, imposing authority figure of a man. Does he need to show skin to be attractive?

I mean, the girl doesn't need to be showing skin either, but to me she's not, she's showing her full body replacement, and her fake skin. I'm sure people who don't realize that if she does have a full body replacement, the only human part she has left is her brain and spine, find her fully cybernetic body attractive, but I myself just can't see it that way. Her breasts are metal and silicone, her private parts most likely do not even exist, unless she has cyberware for that purpose. What's there to get excited about?

She could, of course, just have cybernetic limbs and some kind of facial plating (can't remember all of the cyberware out there), but it looks like an FBR to me.

Not only is she not real, but pixels, but she's also basically a robot as well. Yet people think it's a seductive and sexually charged picture? Well, to each their own, but you can't go complaining about that then.

I mean, if you find a toaster sexy, do you complain about toaster commercials?

 

[Sardukhar]

@C. MacLeod


Personally I think the question of this thread can be found in many links of the original book (I haven't found it but can we have some thread solely made of links from MacLeod, wisdom000 and other guys on one place 'cause those are really fine and interesting literature that can help the newbies to find out the true CyberPunk atmosphere?).
.

http://www.cyberpunk.net/forum/en/threads/52-Online-CP2020-Resources

Voila. GO FORTH AND GAZE.

 

[username_3643051]

The repressed zealously religious puritania of today is hardly a good example of how a world should work, so going to a mall to see how the indoctrinated and brainwashed people of today's society act will tell us nothing of how things can or should be.

Also, if your thinking is that women are "trying to get laid" by wearing something sexy, today, let alone in the world of Cyberpunk 2020/2077, then I don't think you know women very well.

I am a woman.

 

[username_3643051]

It is the year 2077. I see more of a melding between man and woman. Men can graft in a uterus and give birth (C-section) or even a vagina. Women can be fitted with ... male gender sexual organ(s). The sky's the limit. Want more than two breasts because you are a breeder and want to feed more than 2 children at once... Get extra boobies!

Point being... Cyberpunk 2020, 2013, 2015 (whatever), isn't what I'm expecting. I want more. I want to play in a future that isn't known to me.

I hope to see the future Cyberpunk world that's more androgynous in fashion and norms. Hopefully, the developers are thinking outside the box... and not staying firmly entrenched is the same old boring "meh" another T&A game.

 

[kaytlin]

The fact that we usually see women, and not men, in sexy attire and poses, could also be that the majority of the people in the western world seems to agree that most women are beautiful, while most men are not. In other words, if I were to make more generalizations, most men prefer women because of their beauty, and a large portion of women think women are better on the eyes as well.

Not sure if serious...

 

[Sardukhar]

I am a woman.

Me, too!

Oh, wait, wait. No I'm not. No matter how long I've been married, I just can't seem to get it right. Maybe next year!

Anyway, BEING a woman doesn't mean you know women well - they sure baffle my beloved, for example. And all you fleshies male and female baffle me. Why you haven't expired from your own confusions yet I'll never know.

Topical bit to show I'm trying: I, too, would like to see MUCH more boldness in this game sexually and sexuality wise. Androgyny, homesexuality, transdressing, bondage, neutral gender, you name it. We're sure to see boldness in terms of violence...sex would seem to be fair play.

 

[Sydanyo]

I am a woman.

As sardukhar pointed out, the fact that you are a woman doesn't mean you automatically understand women. To be fair, I'm also not saying you don't. However, by no means do I claim to be an expert, but to say that as a general rule women dress provocatively in order to get laid is just a bit out there.

Not sure if serious...

No more and no less serious stating that than people are who think that way.

 

[Dona.794]

Oh man, this forum is impossible to keep up with. First off - Netweaver and C. MacLeod, thank you kindly for your answers. There's a lot to be learned about this RPG and how things work in it, thank you for helping us who are not familiar with it yet.

Second, I don't think the critics of the trailer are right on point either. Kneeling is considered submissive, but it's not the case here. I think the main scene has very bold imagery - a woman who just killed about a dozen people, and a man pointing a gun at her head. There's nothing 'submissive' about it, unless you count her surrendering to the faith as submission. People are going a bit overboard in that regard. But can we not come up with excuses for her clothing, so she just happened to be half-naked because absolutely nothing could have fit the story of a two-minute trailer? Please. Call it like you see it. It's a promotional trailer made to draw attention (of both gamers and developers), and this is doing the job. Like CDPR aren't masters of getting all kinds of attention for stuff like this. Write what you want about me, just spell my name right, isn't that how the saying goes?

I'll also use this post to draw attention to the poor, neglected Mr Augmented Abs - he's contributing to the "clothing has a different meaning" deal of this game, too, by not wearing any extra protection we'd expect him to (being a cop and dealing with guns and other life-threatening stuff). Critics seem to overlook this, although his design contributes to painting the world.

Topical bit to show I'm trying: I, too, would like to see MUCH more boldness in this game sexually and sexuality wise. Androgyny, homesexuality, transdressing, bondage, neutral gender, you name it. We're sure to see boldness in terms of violence...sex would seem to be fair play.

Same.

 

[Sydanyo]

But can we not come up with excuses for her clothing, so she just happened to be half-naked because absolutely nothing could have fit the story of a two-minute trailer? Please. Call it like you see it.

I don't think the issue here is that the lady on the video has sexy and provocative attire, a beauty-enhancing full body replacement or cyberware, and even sculpted features to maximize her ATT(ractiveness). All of those things are relatively obvious when you look at her. That's the way she's been imagined to be by whoever created her. So yes, she's been created to be sexy and beautiful.

The issue here is that there are people in this thread who seem to think that all of the aforementioned isn't a normal everyday thing in Cyberpunk 2020. Because it is. It has been thus for 25 years now. "Chrome babes" have been around for a long long time, and that's an integral part of Cyberpunk 2020. Just look at the covers of the four Chromebooks, or at the several illustrations in the rulebooks and sourcebooks.

Sure, she could've been depicted as something less beautiful and sexy. The question though, is "why"? The way she is now is 100% Cyberpunk 2020. Why do something that isn't Cyberpunk 2020 just to avoid looking like you're aiming it for horny teenagers? That makes no sense to me, at least.

If this video proves without a doubt that the style in which it was made was a conscious decision to aim and market it to a specific audience, then the fact of the matter is that the entire Cyberpunk 2020 game has always been aimed and marketed to that exact audience.

Why change now?

 

[gregski]

So... you think the logo is the central character of the scene?!!



Sorry, can't tell if you're still addressing me. I never said it was disgusting, just a cliche and a bit cynical. Not sure whether you're just pre-judging comments despite the actual words written in them or if your reading comprehension is a bit wobbly.

No, what I'm trying to say is that people are concentrating on 12 seconds of the trailer showing panties and some female body, while there are so many other things in this trailer that are getting FAR MORE exposition. Like guns, bullets, police force, nods to the original CP2020 setting, Night City architecture, flying cars, MAX TAC officer, blood and bodies laying around...

And while I'm at bodies, it's so funny to see people jumping on a pair of female panties and the fact that they are not in company of male ones, but I can't see people protesting about the developer depicting a street massacre of 14 people, with blood splattered and bodies scattered all over the place. Especially in the light of recent (and on-going) discussion about violence in games and how it theoretically affects people and their actions. Hell, there are even people saying that the trailer SHOULD show the killing, to give a context to the girl's appearance/pose and to show she's not submissive, but also powerful...

When the argument about violent games like COD encouraging/causing/promoting agression and gun crime/mass shootings is raised, the majority of gamers is like "bullshit, in no way games affect people's actions in real world, it's a mental health issue or it's gun control issue etc". But when a game teaser shows a female in her panties, all of a sudden it has an influence on the real world by promoting male gaze and gender inequality?

 

[wisdom000]

fuck it, I love me some panty shots.........

I have stayed away from the conversation, but honestly, I get so tired of having this conversation at every forum I go to. No ones mind is ever changed, no one ever really sees each others side of the argument, and it just goes on and on...

Is there sexualization there... yeah... is it problematic.... not really...

Nothing really about this video is problematic. The girls isn't being submissive, if anything she just seems kind of out of it. it's obvious she is not weak and helpless, she slaughtered a group of people. Is her attire out of place, maybe, but then again who cares, it illustrates that she is a full body conversion pretty well.

Do people have a right to be offended.... absolutely. Do they have valid points. yep, many of them do... Should game companies listen to their complaints.... thats up to the game company...

But this... this right here is probably not the hill you want to make your stand on... or maybe you do... but in this case it's not something that bothers me enough that I will stand anywhere but right here, watching the whole video, again and again, and reveling in all its glory... and yes that even means the fanservice...

 

[Dona.794]

Why change now?

Nah, they shouldn't, and I don't think many people on this forum expect them to (like what else would you expect from CDPR and CP2020 fans?) Though I do understand where people who aren't familiar with any of it are coming from with criticism, even though I disagree with it. Gregski is on point saying a pair of girl's panties seem to overshadow many more important things in other people's eyes. Whoever made the video knows it and used it to their advantage, as easy as that. Now, the "why" of people reacting a certain way is a whole another, complex issue, and I quite frankly don't have the energy to go there.

 

[datirishguy]

No, what I'm trying to say is that people are concentrating on 12 seconds of the trailer showing panties and some female body, while there are so many other things in this trailer that are getting FAR MORE exposition. Like guns, bullets, police force, nods to the original CP2020 setting, Night City architecture, flying cars, MAX TAC officer, blood and bodies laying around...

And while I'm at bodies, it's so funny to see people jumping on a pair of female panties and the fact that they are not in company of male ones, but I can't see people protesting about the developer depicting a street massacre of 14 people, with blood splattered and bodies scattered all over the place. Especially in the light of recent (and on-going) discussion about violence in games and how it theoretically affects people and their actions. Hell, there are even people saying that the trailer SHOULD show the killing, to give a context to the girl's appearance/pose and to show she's not submissive, but also powerful...

When the argument about violent games like COD encouraging/causing/promoting aggression and gun crime/mass shootings is raised, the majority of gamers is like "bullshit, in no way games affect people's actions in real world, it's a mental health issue or it's gun control issue etc". But when a game teaser shows a female in her panties, all of a sudden it has an influence on the real world by promoting male gaze and gender inequality?

Woah, this, this right here is a brilliant post, well said, Gregski.