You forgot about the whole sub/dom mentality that seems far more prevelant in Japanese society than in the western world. And lets not forget about some of th fetishes they have invented. Tenticle porn is now about 200 years old...
They do have some pretty distinct fetishes...
But so does everyone else.... and their fetishes are actually pretty tame compared to some of the shit coming out of europe...
They sexualize a lot of things that are pretty fucked, but then again so do we.... they are just more accepting of it, and a bit less hypocritical, I will admit that.
You have a point there.
And what with the 'Easternisation' of the Western Wrold in Cyberpunk 2020, I wonder how that will affect the world of 2077. Will the east still be so influencial in both style and culture? How will that affect the overall perception of sex and sexuality?
The media will still continue as it is, getting more pervasive of everything, becoming a bit more depraved and messed up, while demonizing open sexuality and and tasteful depictions at the same time....
I mean right now we live in an age where Teen Idols grow up and Twerk in front of the country, where shows about childrens beauty pageants are filled with suggestive, sometimes downright open sexual innuendo. And at the same time we have people flipping their shit if grown woman pops out a tit during the superbowl, and Vagina is considered inappropriate to say in front of the supreme court while discussing the issue of womens productive rights.
We get Jersey Shore, and the rest of the reality show dregs of taste and talent, but at the same time, we get brief glimpses of brilliance like Sons Of Anarchy or Walking Dead...
In the world of Cyberpunk, this divide between taste and intelligence, and crap aimed at the lowest rung of the common denominator ladder, will just grow, and get bigger. It won't be one or the other, it will be both... but the crap will always outnumber the brilliant.
And sexuality in the streetws and on the media of Cyberpunk will be the same way. Full on Porn channels on your basic cable packages, but News anchors demonizing it every step of the way.
The East is a big place. Thailand is pretty open, sexually.
Now this is from a very masculine viewpoint. Although I see what you mean I still think one shouldn't underestimate the power of the steady decline in quality of display of erotic or sexual content (if this sentence makes sense at all). There might be a natural point where the majority of people will feel jaded by an overly blunt visualization especially in media (and that is where things are headed) while at the same time the viewer get sort of stripped of his ability to use his imagination..
When I see women in movies and visual media from the 50s, 60s or 70s even, they (to me - I know I'm generalizing) appear generally portrayed in a more feminine way. Madonna was - if already heavily polarizing - at the same time innovative and fresh but today you have up-and-coming acts desperate to flash their primary/secondary sexual genitals I mean characteristics whenever there is an audience.
Could be that people just adapt and wait for the next revelation in sexuality _or_ it could be that they reach a point where they start to look away in tedium. Ok, there is an increasing audience obviously, but it just generally gets younger and as things usually go, growing up you tend to leave things behind that you feel you have seen enough of.
PS: Also I'm not against female self-fulfilment just saying that some aspects of the way some people decided to achieve it might get really dull with the time, especially if there's nothing else behind it.
PPS: I still expect to see a lot of crazy but also professionally erotic characters in CP2077 - if only for the fact that we're going to play it in 2015
now!!! petition against sexual waywardness between children and adolescents (with the kind support of The Believer)
ok now I'm way off topic - sorry
Also Japan has got some crazy aspects sex-culture wise but what aficionados get for a reaction there is hardly a roll of one's eyes.
Again, this is a dystopia cyberpunk world. The worst characteristics should be front and center, not the best or the most hopeful. I expect people will look for distractions from their dreary lives in different forms. Drugs, porn, gambling, body modifications, illegal fights..etc. Something to distract you. Sex will be even more prevalent. Remember time square during the 70's? It used to be nothing but porn and peep shows until the city cleaned it up. I would expect that it has returned but in this new corporate culture. Sex is a product like everything else, the porn peep shows are now porn memories, porn vr games, or women/men with the exotic playbeing package(the fact is is sold in the books should tell you a lot about the setting) most of the legal ones owned by corporations. With underground rings going even farther with illegal versions that push the boundaries.
There will always be those that will decry the decay of society and those that will try and go further to shock people. If you brought people from the 50's today and stuck them in a mall. They would probably have a heart attack at all these sinners running around and do not even show them what is on the internet. However, again, the future of cyberpunk will be a darker place, not a brighter one. All the negative aspects of everything should be sticking out, not the positive.
That reminds me, if netrunning is the internet, their should be virtual porn islands on there. I mean, the internet is flooded with porn now, you expect me to believe the future will be any different. There was a joke that went, if the government blocked porn, all internet activity would cease except for one page called "Bring back the porn".
Since we are on the subject, what do you think the next porn tech will be?
I can see robot/A.I lovers(would be cool if we could order one). There is already the playbeing enhancement, With exotic's/body sculpting/genetic engineering, they can have cloned or remade people who look/act like famous people in a prostitute ring, What about body jacking? I can see some people offering services that allow people to "rent" bodies, basically their real body is hooked up to a netrunner machine and they take over a body they can possess and do with it as they please...etc
Anybody seen the kara demo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0KTUysrwgQ that heavy rain creators showed a while back. I expect something like that as robotic servents, but minus the free will. Should be expensive so not everyone has one, but something you could get later in the game. Anybody play vampire the masquerade? Remember the thrall you could keep at your place? That was actually kind of cool.
There will always be those that will decry the decay of society and those that will try and go further to shock people. If you brought people from the 50's today and stuck them in a mall. They would probably have a heart attack at all these sinners running around and do not even show them what is on the internet. However, again, the future of cyberpunk will be a darker place, not a brighter one. All the negative aspects of everything should be sticking out, not the positive.
That reminds me, if netrunning is the internet, their should be virtual porn islands on there. I mean, the internet is flooded with porn now, you expect me to believe the future will be any different. There was a joke that went, if the government blocked porn, all internet activity would cease except for one page called "Bring back the porn".
Since we are on the subject, what do you think the next porn tech will be?
I can see robot/A.I lovers(would be cool if we could order one). There is already the playbeing enhancement, With exotic's/body sculpting/genetic engineering, they can have cloned or remade people who look/act like famous people in a prostitute ring, What about body jacking? I can see some people offering services that allow people to "rent" bodies, basically their real body is hooked up to a netrunner machine and they take over a body they can possess and do with it as they please...etc
Anybody seen the kara demo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0KTUysrwgQ that heavy rain creators showed a while back. I expect something like that as robotic servents, but minus the free will. Should be expensive so not everyone has one, but something you could get later in the game. Anybody play vampire the masquerade? Remember the thrall you could keep at your place? That was actually kind of cool.
There's this line in Futurama where Fry goes, "Well, thanks to the Internet, I'm now bored with sex."
Personally, I'd like to see sexual content more understated than in-your-face; sexuality is kind of like religion in that it's not only one of those things that's incredibly personal to a lot of people, but also viewed and enjoyed in completely different ways by different people. Because of that and my general impression that the more open a culture becomes about something the less you see it used for shock value/marketing/etcetera, I'd much prefer the sexual aspects of the world to be downplayed in favor of other elements.
Besides, it's a game. I'm not for shying away from controversy, but it could get incredibly cringe-worthy incredibly fast if it's not handled subtly.
Personally, I'd like to see sexual content more understated than in-your-face; sexuality is kind of like religion in that it's not only one of those things that's incredibly personal to a lot of people, but also viewed and enjoyed in completely different ways by different people. Because of that and my general impression that the more open a culture becomes about something the less you see it used for shock value/marketing/etcetera, I'd much prefer the sexual aspects of the world to be downplayed in favor of other elements.
Besides, it's a game. I'm not for shying away from controversy, but it could get incredibly cringe-worthy incredibly fast if it's not handled subtly.
Sorry, but if people have a problem with sexuality in a game, they really should NOT be playing a CDP games and stick with disneyfied games like EA and bethesda games. Did you play the witcher games? The sexuality was a big part of it and I think the majority of CDP fans would be pissed if we went backwards and toned/censored any game to please people who have issues with it(and they would STILL bitch about something). I want the game to not shy away from sexuality at all. It should be in your face in the sense that it feels like a real dystopia setting.
We have had porn in magazines/internet for a while and yet people still have babies, prostitutes still exist, strip clubs are still around, people still dress sexualized. Nothing has changed except how easy and prevalent porn is getting.
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I totally agree with your comment about CP being a dystopia and the worst should be right there.
The comment above, no. Witcher 1 and 2 were not particularly sexual or sexy games. Not by percentage of content or depiction of acts or, well, nearly any measure other than one: the rest of the RPGs out there that avoid it nearly altogether.
Compared to movies, television or, god forbid that last bastion of passive sexuality, literature, Witcher 2 was quite tame. CDPR includes it, i think, because it makes sense to them to have some sex in a grown-up game with grown-up relationships, rather than pretend it's not a factor. I would go so far as saying they push it a bit, because they like sex. Plain and simple.
They like sex, they include it in their game so you can watch it or jack off to it or whatever. Same reason they include sword fights, ( phrasing) and dialogue choices. They think sex is just a part of the story and it's fun to create and watch. Voila.
If you do have a problem with sexuality in a game, then, yes, you SHOULD be playing Witcher 1 and 2. Because you can skip the sex parts easily and the REST of the game(s) are great! Sex is optional.
If it's a dystopia, sex should not be in your face. It should be hidden, controlled and punished. Like most of the good things in the world.
The sex trade might be in your face, the exploitation of the helpless, the dehumanization of sex, sure. But not the fun parts. That's not very dystopic.
As for your last assertion that in the real world "nothing has changed except how easy and prevalent porn is getting", that's a whole other topic. I'd just say things -have- changed, and a lot, and you might want to talk to your grandparents, (Who, believe it or not, also had porn.), about the breadth and depth of society's changing attitudes towards sex, in the last hundred years.
Yes. Did you? The sexuality most definitely wasn't a big part of them; they had sexual aspects (in the first game in the form of much-lambasted sex cards) but that was never, ever the focus, and despite the main character's salaciousness it was possible to go through them without engaging in much of that.
Backhandedly referring to subtlety as "disneyfying" does your argument a serious disservice, because the idea that less outright sexuality would be backwards is an insane idea that implies that the Witcher games' maturity is based on its sexual content rather than its writing. Dystopic doesn't necessarily equal amped-up sexuality, either, and your equivalence of the two as though it's a given is seriously questionable.
The sexuality in the previous games has been a distraction that detracts from the truly mature aspects of the game (see: Angry Joe's Witcher 2 review for an example of this), so I'd like to see a less blunt approach to it while maintaining that same high level of writing and grey morality. Showing a little skin like in the teaser is no big deal, of course, but search the page for "porn" and see how many times it comes up in your posts. In my mind, this game will have taken the absolute wrong path if I feel like I'm in the middle of a teenager's pornographic fantasy while playing.
See, a LOT (probably majority of CDP fans) of people will disagree that it was a distraction. Hell, people have waited for games to grow up and not treat their players (who the majority are in 20's 30's) as kids. I like angry joe and agree with a lot of his reviews, but he isn't the end all of gaming opinion. He lost a lot of cred when it is obvious he is a fanboy of bioware games and keeps defending them no matter how bad the company gets after EA got them.
EA and Bethesda only make disneyed and politically correct games. Fallout 3 was a joke, they stripped out the maturity and intelligent writing that were in f1/2, and removed all but very few token controversial stuff from the fallout universe. I will never forgive bethesda for destroying a great franchise. Do not even get me started on what EA has done to bioware.
When I say sexuality, I meant in the sense of how people dress and act. Look at the huge difference between how people react now and they did in the previous generations. Have you been to clubs? They have devolved to soft porn action with dry humping. Every generation tries to outdue/shock the previous ones. The trend will not stop.
When I say it is in your face, I meant people are not going to be hiding it like in a muslim country. Women/men will wear stuff that enhances their sexual appeal. That will be showing skin, getting sexy cybernetics or becoming an exotic. I mean, the whole point of becoming an exotic is to make you stick out.
There will always be a faction that decries it and the rest of the world will ignore it. However, if you look at the people who decry it the most are probably hypocrites and are the biggest freaks behind the scenes.
Do we really want another politically correct censored game? I sure don't.
And you feel that the best way to accommodate 20-30 year-olds is to include unchecked, in-your-face sexuality? Somehow, I don't think that's quite what we were talking about when we were all complaining about being treated as kids.
Quick thought experiment—how old do you suppose said people involved in that dry humping are? I've certainly missed all the people in business suits who are apparently grinding on each other.
And has it ever occurred to you that each generation isn't necessarily trying to outdo the previous one so much as rebelling against that previous generation's conventions? I've seen the nicest people come out of the worst parenting situations because they rebelled by being nice people (and some truly horrible pastor's daughters, as well), so the idea that society is on a one-way slope to unchecked debauchery strikes me as a hilarious oversimplification.
I must have accidentally suggested that everyone in the game wear burqas. That's my bad.
(But seriously, I don't mind showing skin and trying to stand out. That wasn't what I was talking about at all.)
Great tagline, but not really a realistic one. Who says that a softer touch and a focus on other elements that contribute to the world's dystopic allure equals politically correct and/or censored? It's a false equivalency based on your expectations rather than any actual evidence of CDPR's intentions, and your expectations seem to revolve around more sex stuff = more mature as though it's really that simple.
And you know, by that logic, Oblivion + a nude mod is the most mature game ever made. I'm thinking it's a tad more complex than that, personally.
We already had a kids version of cyberpunk called Deus Ex:HR. It is safe to bet that the fans of cdp expect no less than the maturity level (including sex) of the witcher series and actually to push the envelop even further in cyberpunk. Your asking CDP to turn its back on one of biggest reasons it has become such a famous developer and publisher. No thanks, I want CDP to not change into a generic company trying to please the generic idiot masses. Especially doing things like avoiding controversial topics because some people are easily offended. Games used to be about controversy, and would push the envelope. Fallout 1 and 2 (mostly 2) were cult favorites because they had a lot of mature subject matter. We want to return to those times when games had intelligent and mature subjects out in the open. Hell, in fallout 2 you could be a slaver, a porn star, had a shotgun wedding if you slept with a farmers daughter..etc. and those were GREAT! Now? Now nobody does anything like that because we have some morale police freaking out because they are offended and demand it be moved. Screw them I say, if it offends somebody, they should not be playing it. It is that simple. They should not have everybody elses fun ruined because of it.
The slightly higher than normal amounts of sex stuff is what made them famous?
I guess they forgot to tell that to whoever made those bullet points about what they're focusing on with 2077. Quick, someone stop them before they ruin their fame with moderation and thoughtful consideration! We demand a futuristic bedroom thrusting simulator!
Games used to be about controversy? Might I ask when exactly this was?
The only game I can think of that actually aimed for controversy would be BMX XXX. Conversely, the Fallout games did what worked for the setting and story rather than throwing adult stuff in willy-nilly for its own sake, even realizing that some of the things they planned were a bad idea and removing them of their own volition.
So if I'm reading this right, you and some unnamed group of people want this game to be a political statement against censorship, and one that pushes further into territory many would find questionable for the purposes of sending a message to the industry at large?
Basically, screw what works for the game and all of that deep storytelling stuff that might be overshadowed by an overabundance of sexual content. Just give us mature stuff like lots and lots of sex because it's always mature. Right?
Funny, I did not know the game was already made and you have seen it. So you know for a fact the game will be better sanitized and disneyed? As for the witcher, I am pretty sure people praised ALL of the witcher 2 and not just the sex scenes. Anybody who focused only on the sex scenes, that is their immaturity and nobody elses problem. You obviously got some moral issue over this and it has nothing to do with making the game "better".
Now, now. No inciting. And avoid personal-ish attacks. It's so...gauche. Unless in jest, of course.
I don't think Azriel is saying they should give us lots and lots of sex - you're baiting him(?). And putting words into his mouth.
The idea is that CDPR shouldn't shy away from controversial topics, which they haven't, simply because it offends people. That makes sense. It also applies to putting sex in - it's irrelevant whether people are offended or not. What matters is the game vision.
Likewise, it is equally unwise to completely ignore what offends people in every way. Many taboos are there for good social reasons, Az.
Furthermore, it's bad business sense to do so. Don't worry too much about unduly offending customers - do worry about duly offending customers. CDPR is in a position to pay for these forums because they try not to make too many poor business decisions.
Also, Az, 226 and I are fans of CDPR and their games - we don't particularly care if they push the sex envelope. At all. So, probably you want to cut down on the sweeping generalizations. Unless you have some data. Polls, at least. Didn't we do a poll for this?
I don't think Azriel is saying they should give us lots and lots of sex - you're baiting him(?). And putting words into his mouth.
The idea is that CDPR shouldn't shy away from controversial topics, which they haven't, simply because it offends people. That makes sense. It also applies to putting sex in - it's irrelevant whether people are offended or not. What matters is the game vision.
Likewise, it is equally unwise to completely ignore what offends people in every way. Many taboos are there for good social reasons, Az.
Furthermore, it's bad business sense to do so. Don't worry too much about unduly offending customers - do worry about duly offending customers. CDPR is in a position to pay for these forums because they try not to make too many poor business decisions.
Also, Az, 226 and I are fans of CDPR and their games - we don't particularly care if they push the sex envelope. At all. So, probably you want to cut down on the sweeping generalizations. Unless you have some data. Polls, at least. Didn't we do a poll for this?
You know that was the point I was trying to make, right? The series' maturity doesn't stem from the sex stuff, but from those other elements, like the layered story that isn't just spoon-fed to you, branching story paths that each carry pros and cons, difficult decisions, and realistically-written characters who don't exist for fan service reasons but because they fit within the context of the larger story.
I don't mind sexual content, but I'd like to see it handled with a certain care (understated like I said earlier) rather than being shoehorned in to reinforce how super mature the games are. Just like shoehorning in random characters who exist solely for fan service would be a bad idea, pushing the envelope with sexual content without a valid story-related reason behind doing so comes across as fan service. There's also the issue of people having completely different ideas about what constitutes "good sexual" and "bad sexual," so trekking too far could mean alienating large swaths of people.
For example, I'm into biting. Doesn't mean that doing so on the first date is a particularly good idea, though, because not everyone shares my enthusiasm for the concept. Subtly easing into stuff like that is always a good idea, both in games and real life. That's the whole point I was trying to make.
I've been meaning to mention that biting thing for several posts, now. Glad to finally have the opportunity to over-share and make everyone uncomfortable.
Oh, totally. That's how I always win arguments—baiting until someone says something stupid and indefensible. Would you believe that you're the first person to call me out on it? That's actually kind of surprising now that I think about it.
But he started it. For real this time!
CD are the right for the job, as you said the already profed it with their Witcher games, they know how to handle sexual content