Pacifist Play-through?

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I definitely want to see lethal choice as being something with consequences in BOTH directions.

Example from a game a lot of us know: The DX:HR Prologue.

So you've got this group of heavily-armed, apparently well-trained (except for their ability to look behind the furniture), mercenaries. You have the choice of killing them or stealth, no non-lethal takedown option. You don't know their objectives, but you DO know that behind you is an office building full of unarmed civilians, and that the mercenaries are apparently heading in that direction and killing everyone they see. Is Pacifism/Stealth really a morally better choice here? If this was a game where C&C come into play, shouldn't pacifism have adverse consequences?
 
Oh, I very much agree. The decision tree leading to the termination of another human is, outside of reflexive defensive action, typically quite complex I think. You are, after all, violating a basic precept of every human society - Thou Shalt Not Kill. Human life is sacred-ish. Unless you are at war, a national government, dodging the plague...anyway.

So, yeah, I really would like to see situations where killing seems to be "good" because all the other choices are worse. and having a person killed has a very similar series of contradictions and moral implications.

Games trivialize murder far too often for my taste, even when it's necessary.
 
Games trivialize murder far too often for my taste, even when it's necessary.

So very much agreed. Don't get me wrong, context is everything, mind you - if there are actively-hostile targets coming my way, I'm gonna do my damnedest to get them before they get me, but in other situations...

I feel that the more humanized the violence is, the more it should be optional in the game. Basically, the less the opponents are "faceless mook" types and the more realistic the violence, then the better the game is if there's a way to avoid a lethal encounter.

For example, say one of the objectives in a mission involves entering a guarded and locked room. There are two guards, each with a pistol and a key.
In scenario 1, they are generic nameless-and-voiceless stormtrooper types, identical helmets and gear, etc. I'd have no real concern about going in guns hot, blamblamblam, take the key.
In scenario 2, they have visible faces and nametags, but the game has Mortal Kombat style "cartoon gore" bloodsplatters and other exaggerated stuff. Here I'd be a bit hesitant to just open up, but it's funny seeing them spray crimson everywhere like walking sacks of spaghetti-sauce, so again, blamblamblam, key get.
In scenario 3, same as 2, but the two guards are idly conversing and the game violence is lifelike, with ragdoll physics and pained cries and such. Now here, I'm not too keen on a headlong confrontation, so time to consider an alternate route or some means of distraction and hoping my lockpicking skill is high enough.

Violence, in most situations, should always be the player's choice, not a forced thing. Think of the Metal Gear Solid series - in most games, it was entirely possible to go the entire game and never actually kill a single person, bosses included. Alternatively, you could be a psychotic little gun-monkey and hose down everyone and everything with so many bullets you could melt down the spent casing, build a boat with the recycled metal, then sink that boat with the weight of more spent casings. Both styles have their difficulties and challenges, but they both can work, and you are rewarded either way.

The drawback to that is that, even the "no kill" way is just avoiding otherwise-guaranteed lethal encounters, because the enemy goons only function in the way of "player not found"/"attack player". Which isn't the most easy sort of thing to mesh with the potential of a "pacifist playthrough". So the enemy needs some adjusting too, in at least some situations.

I mean, say I come across two slacker minions playing a game or something while trying to think up excuses for why they're not hunting me down with the others.

One of them shouts "Hey wait, don't shoot! We don't have to even admit we found each other, maybe we can just walk away...."

And then the other one rushes me shouting about how they found me and now I have to die.

What could be awesome here would be the two guys actually start fighting each other. The 'lets walk away' guy might want to fight his partner because he's obviously trying to get in the way of things and making things worse. Then, you, as the player, could make the choice to either:

A. Go ahead and shoot them both while they're distracted and take the target loot and run
B. Help the 'cool' dude by shooting the crazy guy and then maybe actually help each other, or
C. Take all the loot in the room and leave them to kill each other.

Why am I so much in favor of steering away from the tunnelvision'd "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" method?

The more I think about the violence thing, the more it interests me - because back in the day, it was the parents and the 'moral guardians' who were criticizing it - now it's the reviewers and the gamers themselves. Partly because many of us have become the parents. Truth is, a lot of people are complaining about violence in video games they themselves play. I think what we're seeing here is pretty similar to the Iron Age of Comics in that there's only so far you can go into "Darker and Edgier" territory before it ceases to be any fun.

We have killed literally billions of people in video games and even the most peaceful of us likely has slain tens of thousands of people personally. In Metal Gear Revengeance alone, the killing of just cybernetic people can measure in the hundreds. Even if you don't believe that video game violence is harmful, there's plenty of argument it can get BORING after a while.

Likewise, it can become uncomfortable or even flat-out tasteless as video games become more and more photo-realistic. Take the new Tomb Raider game's controversy over Lara Croft being groped by the Russian guy (I don't use the word "attempted rape" because he strangles her no matter what happens and seems to just be eyeing her). Throw in also the fact that her deaths in animation used to be fun and now just seem gratituous.

We're passing over the Uncanny Valley where we don't care what happens to these pixels. In Ninja Gaiden, I wiped out hundreds of mooks because they simply popped out of existence when I stabbed them. Now, in video games, you have it so that mooks talk about their wives and children back home or how afraid they are.

The personalization can get a little uncomfortable.
 
What's pacifist playing? To me it sounds more like talk my ass out of trouble. Every single time. I don't think that's good idea for a game. Of course - talk out of some tough situations should be an option. But roles should be designed to actually do some harm (or to sneak away, whatever).

If the question is about option not to use lethal force at all (say sneak away from every encounter), I have no objection. But fashion today seems like if there's non-lethal option to play the game, it's the only right way to play the game, otherwise player is like some demon, Lucifer, Satan,... And that better not be Cyberpunk's case.
I mean - in hostile world, hostile means should be respected as an option. Respected, not demonized as in Deus Ex: Human Revolution.
How about some Flash-like option? You know really boost speed and knockout the enemy without killing it, but also without sneaking?
If sneaky, non-lethal option is included, I want same level of respect for every other way of playing the game, same level of care in level design and writing.
 
I think both should add their own kind of danger in story instead of "non lethal playthrough" just be a challenge due to limited non-lethal ammo, etc.
What's the danger of killing? Maybe enraging someone and have him or her seek vengeance on you (a relative, ally or something of the victim), have this person's good contributions to something not be seen (maybe that person could have helped us later... it reminds me of a certain "gentlemen's agreement" for not killing a loved one of this gentleman).

What's the danger of not killing? You give your enemy a second chance. Have them recover from unconsciousness (unlike DE:HR's slip, where you had this augmentation which didn't serve a purpose). And again, here gentlemen's agreement is directly applicable. Maybe even have humanity loss when we kill in non-threat scenarios without a psychological defense like being convinced that "this is a war and it's ok to kill in a war" with the sequels of these being post traumatic stress disorder (which might make us less accurate in similar situations) or rendering the character a psychopath.

I would also like for non-lethal attacks on us to serve a purpose other than game over. In the original DE you could be attacked with narcotic crossbow darts which made our regular health go down until we died. Wouldn't it be much cooler if the outcome was being captured and maybe be subjetcs of interrogation or torture?
 
yeaaah...pacifism will work so well with Boosters, Chromers, and other MS-13 types.....

As I said, context is everything - if there are actively-hostile targets coming my way, I'm gonna do my damnedest to get them before they get me, I'm not gonna try to stop a rampaging juiced-up ganger with some silver-tongued persuasions or pretending to hide in a cardboard box..
 
As has been echoed in various other spots in this thread already, I'd be interested in seeing if they offer stealth and/or fast-talking options in certain encounters, instead of just outright combat.

Also, I'm curious if they'll be borrowing the morale / surrender mechanic they're working on for Witcher 3. From a storytelling perspective, sparing an opponent has the room for all KINDS of potential.
 
When finesse just won't do.

Wisdom: Kills Things Dead.™


Just saying, a video game that doesn't revolve around action just doesn't really sound all that appealing...

It's nice to have the option to avoid killing, if thats what you want... but I would rather the action dynamic not suffer to provide those choices...
 
It's nice to have the option to avoid killing, if thats what you want... but I would rather the action dynamic not suffer to provide those choices...

Pretty sure that's what we ALL want, Wis. Choice.

While some contextual "must do this" situations are understandable, it shouldn't always be a "kill everything or you fail and die" hardline binary.
If I want to roar up and down the corporate tower studded with enough flamethrowers and chainguns to give Rob Liefeld a six-foot-long envy-boner, I should have that option. But I should also have the option to stealth-mode my way into the building and sneak past the guards without spilling a drop of blood.
 
I'm in favour to be able to complete the game without killing anyone if possible. After playing games like MGS & Deus Ex: HR non-lethally (save the points which didn't provide an alternative) I find making that concerted effort to be very worthwhile.
 
Meh. Choice. I don't want you - or me- to have all this "choice". I don't want the choice to use magic. I don't want the choice to activate God Mode. I don't want the choice to fly around on my mutant super-powers. I don't want the choice to be Bruce Lee and have it viable.

This is Cyberpunk.

Lethal is the name of the game, eventually. You don't want to do it yourself, sure, I get that, but the story and the setting should include choices wherea ll the results are bad and SOMEone is going to die. Unfairly.

This isn't Thief or even Deus Ex. This is Cyberpunk and it's a bad, hard place. No one gets out without blood on their hands.
 
Lethal is the name of the game, eventually. You don't want to do it yourself, sure, I get that, but the story and the setting should include choices wherea ll the results are bad and SOMEone is going to die. Unfairly.

This isn't Thief or even Deus Ex. This is Cyberpunk and it's a bad, hard place. No one gets out without blood on their hands.

Well, that's what a non-lethal playthrough challenge is, it's not that easy to do it without killing anyone. But maybe if it just wasn't as easy to kill from the start, if you could feel like you could spare some lives... the moment when you just don't see the way out without dirtying your hands would be that much more powerful. And maybe there is a way, you just don't see it.
 
Oh, an excellent point. It's a fine balance between railroading the PC into your choices and illustrating a world where the bloody choice is, eventually, the only one left. So they have that feeling of being trapped by the choices they have made themselves.

Don't get me wrong - I have no problem with an attempt to stay clean during the game. But this is Cyberpunk - that should, eventually, inevitably, fail. And it should be your fault.

I also like the idea of a save/reload counter, so that we can all have some idea HOW MANY times we died. After all, in the PnP, you get one try and thaaat's all folks. Means people with characters a few months old start getting pretty paranoid. Great times!
 
Well, on the assumption that the game is going to warrant multiple playthroughs, I would like the option of being able to go fully non-lethal and get a Steam Achievement for it (OK, so I'm shallow)

But it should be very, very difficult to do so. And I definitely love the suggestion that the decisions of lethal/pacifist should have consequences beyond the trivial.

And save/reload counter is fine, as long as I'm not forced into a limited number of saves as a game mechanic. It's fine as a main-menu option, or tied to an "Insane" mode like TW2, but it's definitely an area where I wouldn't want the wishes of some to be forced on all players.
 
And save/reload counter is fine, as long as I'm not forced into a limited number of saves as a game mechanic.
Agreed with this. It's fine if it's just a counter to show how much you suck =p / how awesome you are, but I wouldn't be cool with the idea of a cap on how many times you can reload from a given save. Outside of some sort of Hardcore / Ironman mode, it seems excessive to penalize a player for (x) number of reloads. Even in CP2077.
 
Achievements,. So shallow.

Yeah, limited ( no) saves only for Hardcore, absolutely. Otherwise save as often and wherever you want. Some of us have lives, ( I hear) and can't devote the time to safely get to the next damn checkpoint. Hitman, I'm looking at you.

No, I'm thinking of just -tracking- how many times you die and reload. A Hall of Shame, as it were. Because shame motivates. Right, Redge? You know what I'm talking about. Where's that list of weakling techies you promised us, sorted by categories and whatnot? hmm? HMM?
 
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