Milva already WAS hard to play. There was nothing izi about it, starting with the very basic fact as you could not move an opponent's unit if you didn't have a deathblow target. Its interaction with Madoc and unitless was a problem, which could have been fixed in a different, smarter way. Halfing the value of the card while keeping the same provisions is not sending it to "meme realm." It's sending it to the trash bin for everyone, and in fact hitting people who were playing her in normal Movement decks harder, because in unitless she probably will still work.
Ah, you are correct, only if you spend a coin, it's a total of 6, but if you buff brute and ignatius then it's a 4 for 8.
If you have a confession extractor in the graveyard, or Vigilantes on the board, or a then this card dies immediately upon deployment for an instant 7 coins. If you have brute and Ignatius in deck, then it's 4 for 9.
I've recently seen a literal first-timer rise from rank 25 to 2480 ST MMR in 5 days playing Milva unitless almost exclusively, with some Jackpot on the side.
After literally picking the game up for the first time. A Russian streamer Jeensoff, If you're wondering. Not a brainy nerd type either, very much a casual kind of streamer, impatient and chat-oriented, the guy didn't even bother with reading card descriptions carefully and kept making rookie mistakes. Oh, and absolutely failed at even figuring out how Assimilate/Pirates are supposed to work after numerous attempts. You get the picture.
And even this guy had no issues playing Milva after a couple of initial blunders. If that's not a definition of a braindead card, I don't know what is.
Sure, however I would attribute these points to The Brute, Ignatius etc, given that you otherwise undersell their points and oversell Scapegoat.
If you attribute the damage from Confession Extractor to the bounty givers you oversell them and present Confession Extractor in terms of its value as a Profit 5 for 5 provisions (unless you double count).
The most fair description would be a 6 for 4 which enables synergies by advancing it themes gameplan (and which is proactive, which is relevant for Bounty).
I mean, I just looked him up and he's never been above 2400 ST this season, so... I don't know what's the definition of what, but I think people tend to exaggerate a whole lot when talking about ST cards for some reason.
K, let me put it like this - realistically, how hard is it currently to bring something into Milva's deathblow range with a deck containing movement bombs, some random damage pings from Cat Witchers, Cat Saboteurs, Gaetan, Gezras and 2/3-damage leader charges, and then maybe some more from Sentries if you're inclined to play them in melee and possibly some more damage from Sorcs? And, secondly, how often are you absolutely forced to play movement offensively without an appropriate deathblow target and expose your Milva?
I'm not even bringing up Madoc who sets up targets all day pretty much automatically. After all, you acknowledged this interaction as problematic, so whatever. Let's assume "pure" movement, as per your original argument. So, no Cataclysm or Dimertium Bombs, none of that nonsense. Let's also pretend Rock Barrage and 3-pts bodies like Beggars don't exist, just for the good measure. So now - how many more ways to set up Milva does this deck need to have for you to consider her easy to play? And finally, even without Madoc, how is your opponent supposed to keep up with 2 to 4 potentially combo-breaking removals in a single turn, assuming they play something that needs to stick (orders/engines/Sabbath setup/Firesworn tokens)?
The control-oriented decks of ST bear great resemblance to NG, that's why they are criticized that much. They're simply not fun to play against.
Realistically, what will happen is you using 1-2 of your three leader charges JUST to keep Milva off the board. Read: you are spending between 33-66% of your leader ability every match just to make sure your 11p card doesn't brick. Yes, there will be targets, but no, it's not easy. If you have 2 4-body cards on the board and a bomb you can't use it, or you will end up using a leader charge. If you have row-locked unit or a defender protecting a row, you can't move it with malena to get at a target, without bricking Milva again, or using leader to get her off the board. If there are units on both enemy rows and none of them a 2, you can't use your bomb at all, or again you're using charges. Yes, you will find targets and yes you will remove your enemy's units, and yes, you have other cards to play, but this is a constant consideration during the match. It's anything but braindead. This is an 11p card that makes you actively think and play ENTIRE GAME in order to get value out of it. And yes, it's oppressive, especially in combination with Madoc and traps, but this isn't a let me deploy for 60 points kind of deal, or let me idle behind a defender and boost constantly out of damage range while I clean board or spam units type of situation, or let me spam tutors and keep replaying an untouchable card from deck and back in over and over. In short, this wasn't a card that made the game so bad that it had to be put down.
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Especially if you're playing NG I guess
No, not really... ST is the same for many people what NG is to you. There are a lot of opinions and points of view.Realistically, what will happen is you using 1-2 of your three leader charges JUST to keep Milva off the board. Read: you are spending between 33-66% of your leader ability every match just to make sure your 11p card doesn't brick. Yes, there will be targets, but no, it's not easy. If you have 2 4-body cards on the board and a bomb you can't use it, or you will end up using a leader charge. If you have row-locked unit or a defender protecting a row, you can't move it with malena to get at a target, without bricking Milva again, or using leader to get her off the board. If there are units on both enemy rows and none of them a 2, you can't use your bomb at all, or again you're using charges. Yes, you will find targets and yes you will remove your enemy's units, and yes, you have other cards to play, but this is a constant consideration during the match. It's anything but braindead. This is an 11p card that makes you actively think and play ENTIRE GAME in order to get value out of it. And yes, it's oppressive, especially in combination with Madoc and traps, but this isn't a let me deploy for 60 points kind of deal, or let me idle behind a defender and boost constantly out of damage range while I clean board or spam units type of situation, or let me spam tutors and keep replaying an untouchable card from deck and back in over and over. In short, this wasn't a card that made the game so bad that it had to be put down.
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Especially if you're playing NG I guess
I am somewhat disappointed in this patch. I find very little to be excited about and most of the "balance adjustments" are either meaningless or harmful. It is easy to misjudge something if one doesn't actually play it, but here is a tentative reaction -- from most disappointing to most appreciated.
1. Only one change to NR -- and that on a card that was and will remain insignificant. NR is not in a good place right now. Maybe killing ST removal decks will help the engine based archetypes -- but these are the NR archetypes least in need of help.
2. No changes to SK. The new onslaught is poorly conceived -- overdoing shields for pirates while making the leader almost useless with any other archetype -- I am really hoping it will be fixed soon. Fucusya remains too many points for a single turn. In my opinion, if a card merits being valued at 14 provisions, it is too powerful at any provision value. Melusine remains too binary -- essentially forcing opponent to either use a heatwave or have graveyard removal. Boosting base value is extremely powerful in factions with easy access to their graveyards. I would also hope to see the ability to generate and boost multiple copies of crow-clan preachers tuned down a bit -- although this is probably best handled by addressing the overpowered (in some factions) Mushy Truffle. Finally, and I admit this is personal taste, but I keep hoping for a return to the 8-provision Artis. I would rather he be easy to include in a deck or have enough defense to survive 5 point removal than have the stupid, usually antisynergistic, ability to play a cultist.
3. The nerf to Milva: sharp shooter effectively kills the card. Yes, something needed to be done -- ideally something subtly that addressed the interaction with Madoc style no-unit play, but this was not it. Just consider when Milva is helpful now (i.e coming out from the deck and meeting Deathblow requirement).
4. The change to Old Speartip merely creates another horribly binary card -- but not one good enough to make any monsters archetype seriously viable. No card should play for 19 points if unanswered -- especially when it places a 19 point card in the graveyard which could be utilized by either Witches Sabbath or Ozzrel. It is not particularly hard to either damage or lock old speartip: asleep to deny the absurd value, but particularly with defender, not all decks with all draws can do this -- the very essence of a binary card. Also, Old Speartip: Asleep now becomes useless unless one also owns Old Speartip.
5. The change to King of Beggars (the card most needing a nerf) is actually a buff in many decks. Not only can he potentially play for more value (returning 12 coins instead of only 9), which also makes him more binary as well, there is less issue of him jumping out of the deck prematurely if one wants to play more tribute cards. I was already playing with good success a cheesy meme deck featuring King of Beggars with both Savola and Salamander (hoping to have King of Beggars in hand when I played the first and in deck for the second). Now I don't even need to worry about having KoB in hand!
6. Buffs to Roach and Knickers were probably unnecessary (athough they might appear that way when compared to over-powered King of Beggers, Cerys: Fearless, and Milva: Sharpshooter). But the buffs are not enough to encourage their use in decks that don't presently use them. But they give big boost to several decks that don't need them (Lippy, Hyperthin, Clog).
7. I think Invigorate was already badly under-estimated. The ST changes make hand-buff even more powerful. It may never be tier 1 because it struggles with control. But it will become even more binary with ridiculous carryover potential.
8. I strongly hope for fixes to the interface -- at least for mobile devices. Even with one minute to make turns, there are certain archetypes I cannot play (e.g. NR Witchers) because I don't have time to click every selection 5 times to get it to correctly register -- and still getting the wrong selection about a third of the time.
9. The Hale family at least merits a second look -- though I. doubt I will want to use them even now.
10. Scapegoat becomes even more niche.
11. Mourntart is closer to usable, but he is so anti-synergistic with actually good cards that I cant see him incorporated into most monsters strategies. He might have meme potential -- but mainly in very binary decks.
12. Huckster might be playable now.
13. Fisher King is approaching viability in some decks
14. Tourney Shalamar, Rience and Vilgefortz: Renegade are worth another look. They have potential in some decks and I look forward to trying them.
1. Only one change to NR -- and that on a card that was and will remain insignificant. NR is not in a good place right now. Maybe killing ST removal decks will help the engine based archetypes -- but these are the NR archetypes least in need of help.
2. No changes to SK. The new onslaught is poorly conceived -- overdoing shields for pirates while making the leader almost useless with any other archetype -- I am really hoping it will be fixed soon. Fucusya remains too many points for a single turn. In my opinion, if a card merits being valued at 14 provisions, it is too powerful at any provision value. Melusine remains too binary -- essentially forcing opponent to either use a heatwave or have graveyard removal. Boosting base value is extremely powerful in factions with easy access to their graveyards. I would also hope to see the ability to generate and boost multiple copies of crow-clan preachers tuned down a bit -- although this is probably best handled by addressing the overpowered (in some factions) Mushy Truffle. Finally, and I admit this is personal taste, but I keep hoping for a return to the 8-provision Artis. I would rather he be easy to include in a deck or have enough defense to survive 5 point removal than have the stupid, usually antisynergistic, ability to play a cultist.
3. The nerf to Milva: sharp shooter effectively kills the card. Yes, something needed to be done -- ideally something subtly that addressed the interaction with Madoc style no-unit play, but this was not it. Just consider when Milva is helpful now (i.e coming out from the deck and meeting Deathblow requirement).
- If opponent has a 1 point card on the board, Milva can be called by any movement of any other enemy unit and target that 1 point card. This is really only likely to occur when opponent plays a summon style deck (or Madoc sets her up -- which increases rather than reduces the undesirable interaction)
- If opponent has a 2 point unit on the board which can be moved without damage. How often will you want to spend a turn to remove a 2-point unit?
- If opponent has a 4 point unit on the board which you move with a leader charge. This might happen fairly often, but how often is it actually worth a leader charge?
- If opponent has a 6 point unit which you can move with a bomb that causes 4 points of damage. This occurs, but is hardly frequent. And boosts can sometimes be used to play around this condition.
- If the right number of units are on the board to allow a cat witcher saboteur to damage the leftmost unit on a row by all but 2 points. This is not common and can almost always be played around.
4. The change to Old Speartip merely creates another horribly binary card -- but not one good enough to make any monsters archetype seriously viable. No card should play for 19 points if unanswered -- especially when it places a 19 point card in the graveyard which could be utilized by either Witches Sabbath or Ozzrel. It is not particularly hard to either damage or lock old speartip: asleep to deny the absurd value, but particularly with defender, not all decks with all draws can do this -- the very essence of a binary card. Also, Old Speartip: Asleep now becomes useless unless one also owns Old Speartip.
5. The change to King of Beggars (the card most needing a nerf) is actually a buff in many decks. Not only can he potentially play for more value (returning 12 coins instead of only 9), which also makes him more binary as well, there is less issue of him jumping out of the deck prematurely if one wants to play more tribute cards. I was already playing with good success a cheesy meme deck featuring King of Beggars with both Savola and Salamander (hoping to have King of Beggars in hand when I played the first and in deck for the second). Now I don't even need to worry about having KoB in hand!
6. Buffs to Roach and Knickers were probably unnecessary (athough they might appear that way when compared to over-powered King of Beggers, Cerys: Fearless, and Milva: Sharpshooter). But the buffs are not enough to encourage their use in decks that don't presently use them. But they give big boost to several decks that don't need them (Lippy, Hyperthin, Clog).
7. I think Invigorate was already badly under-estimated. The ST changes make hand-buff even more powerful. It may never be tier 1 because it struggles with control. But it will become even more binary with ridiculous carryover potential.
8. I strongly hope for fixes to the interface -- at least for mobile devices. Even with one minute to make turns, there are certain archetypes I cannot play (e.g. NR Witchers) because I don't have time to click every selection 5 times to get it to correctly register -- and still getting the wrong selection about a third of the time.
9. The Hale family at least merits a second look -- though I. doubt I will want to use them even now.
10. Scapegoat becomes even more niche.
11. Mourntart is closer to usable, but he is so anti-synergistic with actually good cards that I cant see him incorporated into most monsters strategies. He might have meme potential -- but mainly in very binary decks.
12. Huckster might be playable now.
13. Fisher King is approaching viability in some decks
14. Tourney Shalamar, Rience and Vilgefortz: Renegade are worth another look. They have potential in some decks and I look forward to trying them.
Really you need to make all that text when only you thinks the card is not broken and easy The use?Realistically, what will happen is you using 1-2 of your three leader charges JUST to keep Milva off the board. Read: you are spending between 33-66% of your leader ability every match just to make sure your 11p card doesn't brick. Yes, there will be targets, but no, it's not easy. If you have 2 4-body cards on the board and a bomb you can't use it, or you will end up using a leader charge. If you have row-locked unit or a defender protecting a row, you can't move it with malena to get at a target, without bricking Milva again, or using leader to get her off the board. If there are units on both enemy rows and none of them a 2, you can't use your bomb at all, or again you're using charges. Yes, you will find targets and yes you will remove your enemy's units, and yes, you have other cards to play, but this is a constant consideration during the match. It's anything but braindead. This is an 11p card that makes you actively think and play ENTIRE GAME in order to get value out of it. And yes, it's oppressive, especially in combination with Madoc and traps, but this isn't a let me deploy for 60 points kind of deal, or let me idle behind a defender and boost constantly out of damage range while I clean board or spam units type of situation, or let me spam tutors and keep replaying an untouchable card from deck and back in over and over. In short, this wasn't a card that made the game so bad that it had to be put down.
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Especially if you're playing NG I guess
Devs already nerf it anyway
Don't really know what you said there, but it's called a discussion. Participation is not mandatory.
Hmmmmm......
Buff to mill and clog????
8 games I play out of 10 is against the same ng crap , and now it's not nerfed, it's even buffed?????????
While syndicate and milva probably nerfed to hell, no buff no nr and monsters, which leaves the same skellige and buffed ng will only be present??
Is this a joke or what?... Please tell me it is...
Buff to mill and clog????
8 games I play out of 10 is against the same ng crap , and now it's not nerfed, it's even buffed?????????
While syndicate and milva probably nerfed to hell, no buff no nr and monsters, which leaves the same skellige and buffed ng will only be present??
Is this a joke or what?... Please tell me it is...
Draft update is a big fail by not updating core cards and packages. So many problems with those especially with cards changing recently. Should have added some of the new cards and fixed many of packages.
Also, stop offering Koshchey when I select Overwhelming Hunger.... provide deathwish. It's frustrating to select OH and be offered Koshchey, Stygga Castle and Kaer Morehn as my selections for a core card
Also, stop offering Koshchey when I select Overwhelming Hunger.... provide deathwish. It's frustrating to select OH and be offered Koshchey, Stygga Castle and Kaer Morehn as my selections for a core card
Well, there was an additional change to Draft. Not that anyone asked for this change
Instead of arguing about the merits of specific tweaks, I'm surprised nobody else seems to have the same complaints I do with this patch, and have done with many previous patches - namely the pathetic number of changes.
It's a game with 1300-odd cards, in which a few dozen are OP and maybe 200, 300 are completely unused because they simply aren't good enough, and the developers think that tweaking 22 cards is enough for a month's work.
Given that many of these cards could be transformed with simple changes to power/provision cost, which surely would be very little work, I just think this is inexcusable, and it keeps happening, month after month. I have never played a game anywhere near as frustrating as Gwent, because the potential is so great, but it simply isn't being realised.
It's a game with 1300-odd cards, in which a few dozen are OP and maybe 200, 300 are completely unused because they simply aren't good enough, and the developers think that tweaking 22 cards is enough for a month's work.
Given that many of these cards could be transformed with simple changes to power/provision cost, which surely would be very little work, I just think this is inexcusable, and it keeps happening, month after month. I have never played a game anywhere near as frustrating as Gwent, because the potential is so great, but it simply isn't being realised.
[...] It's not a very advanced concept, all things considered. A limiting one, sure, but still very far from being even remotely complex.
Especially because in a pure movement deck your own board comes first, and no card other than Making a Bomb actively forces you to use offensive movement. Above all, matching numbers to other numbers is literally the basic mechanic of Gwent, so...please. You don't consider Nature's Rebuke a very complex card, do you?
Yes, it was. And no, there's no way to make it reasonable without a significant rework, like making her trigger only with Deploys or something. The very idea of the card is terrible - the game is already oversaturated with efficient removal and crazy tempo options, and 2/3 instances of 5-str removal that don't prevent you from playing a card the same turn are the last straw that breaks the opponent's back. At best, it's a variable tempo on demand mechanic, and I've already covered why that's bad in a recent SY hate thread. At worst, you get to completely ruin you opponent's setup, while developing your own. This card, in its current form, can't have good numbers, because then it effectively makes certain slow archetypes impossible to win with, Madoc or no Madoc. The existence of KoB and Fucusya is no excuse to allow its viability either - rather, these cards are also incredibly problematic, but because they don't have to do with with removal/deathblows, they can at least be adjusted to a reasonable power with some value/provisions tinkering.
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The game's already broken. It could, at least, be broken in a fun, diverse way.
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