Patch Notes 9.3

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Well, one of the things what we're saying is that BGF is not an engine, so what you are saying don't really hit the point. But, is clearly we're not going to reach a close position so... let's move on. :beer:
On another note: We want more soldiers for NG!! :think:
 
I have a question, The older foltest pride, Who need cards like The old Priscila to gain charges.

It was an engine?

Hefty helge and fire scorpion, The cards Who needs The player to play tactics cards to gain charges. They are engines?

If The answer for both it Yes, só BGF its an engine too.

If The answer is no, please, tell me, what they are?

For me you have cards with Deploy ability and cards with pure body. Those cards arent engine.

In other hand we have cards with order, passive skills (wich buf or give damage If a condition is reach) those cards are engine. So BGF and any other spender is an engine.

So not comparing SE with BGF but kain has One point. One of the arguments to nerf SE was "an engine cant comes to board with 6 power" while there is other engine (in case, BGF) with 6 power body.

Like He said in an older topic, that is hipocrisy
 
I have a question, The older foltest pride, Who need cards like The old Priscila to gain charges.

It was an engine?

Hefty helge and fire scorpion, The cards Who needs The player to play tactics cards to gain charges. They are engines?

If The answer for both it Yes, só BGF its an engine too.

If The answer is no, please, tell me, what they are?

For me you have cards with Deploy ability and cards with pure body. Those cards arent engine.

In other hand we have cards with order, passive skills (wich buf or give damage If a condition is reach) those cards are engine. So BGF and any other spender is an engine.

So not comparing SE with BGF but kain has One point. One of the arguments to nerf SE was "an engine cant comes to board with 6 power" while there is other engine (in case, BGF) with 6 power body.

Like He said in an older topic, that is hipocrisy
That's what i'm saying. It doesn't matter if people call it a spender or an engine. It is just as important to SY as SE was to MO. It can put down a similar amount of points with SE but for some reason people want it at 6 power. Hey man, i want SE at 6 power too but if i can't have that and i have to worry about 5p removal then SY should worry about their own engines when it comes to 5p removal.
And yes, i will call it an engine. Someone pointed out a few posts ago that an engine is a card that can generate points each round (or something like that). So by that definition, BGF is an engine.

With that being said, i will no longer reply to messages debating the difference between engines and "spenders". I believe i was clear enough on this matter.
 
for the reference, this is the topic.


Also, @rrc i am your friend and i putting your topic only because you create it. But knowing you i think you should think that BGF also needs a nerf, special if you are convinced he is an engine.

In other hand i understood what you said about spend the other coins and dont generate points by itself, but you need to understand that a coin without spender is nothing.

And one more time i am not comparing SE with BGF strengh, even because one its 6 provision and the other is 5 provision, so in a perfect world, SE should be better than BGF.

Buuut, in other hand, like i said, if one of the arguments its a bronze engine shouldnt come to board with 6 body, that thing should be apply to BGF too.

For the last i tried to compare SE with blightmakers - wich its a 6 provision card - to show how blightmker can be stronger than SE (of course in a long round, with a lot of relicts SE willl be better, but i already showed in this topic that wont happen in all the games)
 

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People like NG because it's a luck faction, people love bribery or getting a lucky mill on you. Most of the time they lose and do terribly, but for whatever reason, there are a lot of gamblers in Gwent.

Personally, I hate it, most NG decks are just dice rolls, very boring, but to each his own I guess. Kinda sad that most of the remaining players of Gwent are just the types who enjoy dice rolling, and the strategic players seem to be gone.
If most of the time they lost, NG wouldn't have such a high play rate. All they need to do is mill your most valuable card and you've pretty much lost. Adding Sunset Wanderer has encouraged that even more because now they have a way to keep up with points while they mill your deck. Whenever the devs add a powerful Neutral card, just assume they designed it for NG. Before, even if they mill your best card you had a slight chance of still outpointing them. Now they have blightmaker and Sunset Wanderer so good luck.
 

rrc

Forum veteran
for the reference, this is the topic.


Also, @rrc i am your friend and i putting your topic only because you create it. But knowing you i think you should think that BGF also needs a nerf, special if you are convinced he is an engine.

In other hand i understood what you said about spend the other coins and dont generate points by itself, but you need to understand that a coin without spender is nothing.

And one more time i am not comparing SE with BGF strengh, even because one its 6 provision and the other is 5 provision, so in a perfect world, SE should be better than BGF.

Buuut, in other hand, like i said, if one of the arguments its a bronze engine shouldnt come to board with 6 body, that thing should be apply to BGF too.

For the last i tried to compare SE with blightmakers - wich its a 6 provision card - to show how blightmker can be stronger than SE (of course in a long round, with a lot of relicts SE willl be better, but i already showed in this topic that wont happen in all the games)
Of course you are my friend and these discussions are not going to change that :beer:

If BGF is an engine, I would have included that too in that topic. If any bronze engine comes to board at 6, I would have added/mentioned that in that thread. I don't consider BGF as an engine. As you yourself mentioned, without the spenders coins mean nothings. Spenders are essential in any SY decks (except for the firesworm decks which don't want coins/spenders). SY was in dumpster until spenders became good/decent (unfortunately, Drill became too damn good, which is a problem). I wouldn't mind if BGF is nerfed to be 5 strength. He is one of the best spenders and will be staple in any SY deck (the flexibility to damage and instantly get points if boosted enemies are there and being a pocket for Drill). So, he can be at 5 strength and would still be in all LP decks. But he is not an engine. You can't just play BGF and pass to get +2 points per turn (Apprentice) or get +2, +3, +4, +5 points in subsequent turns (SE) just by the virtue of playing other cards for their full value. As such, he is not remove-or-lose kind of card. SE is and that is why I was wanting him to be in removal range of bronze cards.
 
SY was in dumpster until spenders became good/decent
A widespread delusion. Like pointed out by DRK in a different thread, in truth SY has never really been "bad", not in the same way factions normally fall out of meta, anyway. It was difficult to pilot and navigate (hence the unpopularity and the perceived weakness), but the points evaluation has always been outrageously good. A case in point - Saul and Seductresses simply were the best gold/bronze engines in the game without an equal long before the WotW. Bounty board wipe, although harder to execute, was possible even back in MM. Passiflora had been an absolute terror for a while before its nerf, and even though people largely abandoned it, in truth it remainded a decent t2 option even after it.
Point is, it's not just the drill. Considering how strong and flexible coin mechanic is, SY just has no business having overpowering numbers on top of that. It was supposed to be something of an elitist chessmaster faction from the start, and not the Gwent's easy mode capable of willing points into existence anytime you need them (coins are basically console tab from Skyrim, and have been for a while now). It's just...SY isn't popular when it's hard to play. It doesn't mean it's bad, and definitely doesn't mean it needs to be overbuffed to make it popular.
 
If most of the time they lost, NG wouldn't have such a high play rate. All they need to do is mill your most valuable card and you've pretty much lost. Adding Sunset Wanderer has encouraged that even more because now they have a way to keep up with points while they mill your deck. Whenever the devs add a powerful Neutral card, just assume they designed it for NG. Before, even if they mill your best card you had a slight chance of still outpointing them. Now they have blightmaker and Sunset Wanderer so good luck.

NG are great noob stompers, no doubt. Every season when I climb from 3 to pro, it's usually against a tidal wave of trashcan NG decks. NG has very easy and specific counters:

- Swarm
- Lippy (What good is mill if you can play your deck again)
- Lined Pockets (which counters everything)
- ST with lots of veil

And yes, they can always get a luck win, no big deal, just play again most of the time they get bad luck.
 
Nilfgaard is not the topic here. The faction barely even got any changes in 9.3.

Please take that discussion to some more appropriate thread if you want to continue it.
 
I have a question, The older foltest pride, Who need cards like The old Priscila to gain charges.

It was an engine?

Hefty helge and fire scorpion, The cards Who needs The player to play tactics cards to gain charges. They are engines?

If The answer for both it Yes, só BGF its an engine too.

If The answer is no, please, tell me, what they are?

(...)
Hefty Helge and Fire Scorpions are "active" engines, to me : they can generate extra points on the condition you play some Tactic Cards, for their full value (it's hard to put number on Tactic Cards because they are very situational but they don't trade any of their value to Hefty Helge). It takes a few turns and a condition to generate those points but they can exceed their provision cost. Their cap is limited and they need good targets.

Syndicate is a very unique faction. Spenders are crucial to help other cards, engines or not, to reach their maximum value IN POINTS and Bloody Good Friends is probably the best at the moment :
- bronze (x2)
- double tag
- insanity
- strong body to stick a little
- damages (better than boosts)...
- ...that you can dispatch where you want
- ...and when you want
- ...under armors
- ...without turn restriction

But WHERE are BGF's extra points ? If it was an engine, even a little one, it would be broken ! I won't get mad if it becomes 5 for 5. i don't think it would change a lot and it's not the main culprit.

BGF never was problematic until Tunnel Drill/Cleaver decks. It's the synergy of these decks that is crazy ! It never bricks, it flows, you can play all your points and trash the opponent's board in the same time. That's why I don't understand the patch : a buff to Sausage Maker, for example, a good candidate to fit in those decks...

Monsters took it hard. Poor Caranthir... I think Self Eater will benefit from the next Relicts to come, so I'm not worried for him. But I still don't see the point, comparing it to BGF.
 
Use whatever lingo you want, but spenders are not engines, spenders are spenders. Spenders do not generate value over time, coins come from coin generation. There are efficient spenders but they are still spenders.
 
Syndicate is a very unique faction. Spenders are crucial to help other cards, engines or not, to reach their maximum value IN POINTS and Bloody Good Friends is probably the best at the moment :
Yes, SY is unique in the sense that it has the coin mechanic. That's why their engines enable the usage of that coin. Calling them "spenders" doesn't change that. If all factions were to have their own "spenders" then yes, i would agree that that's a category of cards that's different from engines.
It's the same principle where the SE splits a few times and generates points that way. That's also considered an engine but you don't see MO players going "oh that's not an engine, that's a Relict Empowerer" like what are we even talking about here...

With that being said, yes it is the best engine that SY has atm that enables the use of coins (spender) and it comes on board at 6 points. As someone pointed out, that's "not fair" and it should be in the 5 point removal range.
Right now if you hit it with a 5 point removal the SY player doesn't lose the points it can generate through coins so the SY player doesn't have to commit another similar engine to make use of the coins mechanic. That's why i'm saying it's unfair and has to be toned down.

But WHERE are BGF's extra points ? If it was an engine, even a little one, it would be broken ! I won't get mad if it becomes 5 for 5. i don't think it would change a lot and it's not the main culprit.
The BGF's extra points come into play when you hit it with a 5 point removal but you don't kill the engine that enables the SY player to make use of the coin mechanic and you have to commit a second control card just to deny access to coins.

BGF never was problematic until Tunnel Drill/Cleaver decks. It's the synergy of these decks that is crazy ! It never bricks, it flows, you can play all your points and trash the opponent's board in the same time. That's why I don't understand the patch : a buff to Sausage Maker, for example, a good candidate to fit in those decks...
Of course, Drill is one of the most unfair cards in the game atm. It's right up there with Yennefer's Invocation and the locking mechanic where 4 provision units shut down 13 provision units. I didn't feel like i had to bring the Drill up because people have already pointed it out for a very long time and the devs didn't do anything about it so i'm guessing it's ok in their book?
Monsters took it hard. Poor Caranthir... I think Self Eater will benefit from the next Relicts to come, so I'm not worried for him. But I still don't see the point, comparing it to BGF.
Caranthir i don't really care about to be honest. It was way too op to have 3 Gerni or 3 Mammuna so yeah, i think that was a good change.
SE on the other hand, that affected my deck quite a bit. Killing my main 6 provision engine with a 5 provision removal denies me a ton of points and honestly i struggle quite a bit.
I made a deck that's very similar to my original but with the nerfed cards to see how viable they still are (didn't switch up to Koschey yet).
From rank 3 to rank 2 it was pretty easy. Now at rank 2 for some reason i can't get past half way with this deck. The main reason being the SE dies as soon as it hits the board and from there i can't really keep up with the points the other factions generate.

That's where the comparison to BGF came. People made the argument engines shouldn't come on the board at 6 power because it's op. CDPR apparently agreed because they nerfed SE. So i ask them to stick to their decision and give equal treatment to all other factions.
I didn't think a 1 point nerf to SE would be that big of a deal but the points that it generated added up and they did make a difference in the long run. Same with BGF. The bleed/damage it can provide each turn adds up in the long run so it should be a 5 point removable engine just like SE.
 
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It's the same principle where the SE splits a few times and generates points that way. That's also considered an engine but you don't see MO players going "oh that's not an engine, that's a Relict Empowerer" like what are we even talking about here...

I don't really wanna engage in this but I need those 10 posts to start a thread so I might as well say something.

Well, no. Selfeaters grow 1/turn just by playing another card. And this card plays for full value. Friends play for 6 body, and the pings come from coins. Coins come from profit cards, which play for full value only WITH those coins.

As for SY, yeah, it needs to be nerfed, yes it does. But Friends are not the issue. And comparing Friends to the old Selfeaters is not very accurate. Selfeaters would grow to 18 by turn 5 as you play other relics for full value (~9). If you insist on counting coins as Friends' "engine value," ok, you do you, but then you gotta count profit cards as playing for 3 (or zero).

Also, your interpretation of the whole thing gives an uneducated reader a false impression that Pockets is somehow an engine deck. It is quite the opposite of that. It's a control deck, with lots of pointslam. Passi was a typical SY engine deck. The recent Cove/Jackpot had strong engine elements. Pockets has literally zero engines outside Witchfinder in the Witchfinder version.

Back on topic, the problem with SY is the Drill. 21 dmg (on 7 coins and full leader) in free pings in one turn makes too much stuff in Gwent unplayable. Other SY cards are great, it's a full package, but it's mostly the Drill. I like my autowins as much as the next guy, but Drill gotta go, really. It's a mystery why they did nothing about it.
 
If you insist on counting coins as Friends' "engine value," ok, you do you, but then you gotta count profit cards as playing for 3 (or zero).
Well, if you wanna look at it that way then all profit cards play for 3 or 0 without engines that make use of them. Like i said, since coins are a mechanic exclusive for SY then it's normal that their engines generate value in other ways than the other factions. Coins and the spenders have a symbiotic relationship.

All engines that generate points have certain requirements that have to be met in order to get those points.

Witch Apprentice - Achieve Sabbath
Selfeaters - Build a deck around relicts
Passiflora Peaches - Have 4 coins
Sly Seductres - Wait for the opponent to play cards... ??
Fire Scorpion - Build a deck with many tactics in it
Nauzicaa Sergeant - Make sure you have plenty of deploy cards
And the list can go on...

My point is, all those cards are engines that generate points in their own way and have their own, unique requirements to generate value. The only difference is, none of them come on board at 6 points.

And i understand what you're saying. That without the coins BGF can't generate value so the coins and the card value should be considered separately. But the thing is that all engines generate value only when they are helped by other cards in some way. That's why i consider BGF an engine that should be toned down.

And yes i also don't think that BGF is the biggest problem SY has. Drill is by far the most urgent thing that needs fixing but still, BGF is another one that had to be mentioned.
 
@KaynOfNosgoth

I agree that BGF at 5 power would be fair, regarding what you say. I think they'll make him "5 power, Profit : 1" or something like that. I don't see them remove 1 point on a bronze card that isn't broken.

The card would still be good : 1 point safe in the purse, with Insanity you can put bleeding on your opponent and deny some points of removal... It would be annoying to deal with a 2 points BGF but, as you say, more reachable and you wouldn't have to sacrifice a gold card. It's something to note for the next Patch.

Still, it's a spender but not an engine, to me. ( It never ends !! :) )
We disagree because the status of spenders is ambiguous as they are a necessary step to convert coins in points. I understand why one can see them as engines : they are a sort of part of it. But in the process, few of them create extra points on their own. Some cards are both spender AND engine : Sea Jackal and, of course, the abominable Tunnel Drill...

That's all for me on this ! ^^
 

rrc

Forum veteran
@KaynOfNosgoth

But in the process, few of them create extra points on their own. Some cards are both spender AND engine : Sea Jackal and, of course, the abominable Tunnel Drill...

That's all for me on this ! ^^
Now Sea Jackal and Tunnel Drill are engines? I understand that they can convert the coins more effectively on super easy conditions. But can we call them as engines? In a general knowledge discussion of what is an engine and what is not, at least I am a bit confused and want to think more about Sea Jackals and Tunnel Drill, but calling BGF as engine never made any sense to me.

But this is a good point to think - is SJ and TD engines? Because when they spend the coins, they generate more points over and above the points the original coin generator card played for. I didn't consider SJ or TD as engines. At least now I am confused about SJ and TD. You made a very good point.

But I think we should take this 'Are Coin Spenders Engines?' discussion out of 9.3 Patch Notes. It is an interesting topic on its own and has nothing to do with 9.3 Patch Notes.
 
Now Sea Jackal and Tunnel Drill are engines? I understand that they can convert the coins more effectively on super easy conditions. But can we call them as engines? In a general knowledge discussion of what is an engine and what is not, at least I am a bit confused and want to think more about Sea Jackals and Tunnel Drill, but calling BGF as engine never made any sense to me.

But this is a good point to think - is SJ and TD engines? Because when they spend the coins, they generate more points over and above the points the original coin generator card played for. I didn't consider SJ or TD as engines. At least now I am confused about SJ and TD. You made a very good point.

But I think we should take this 'Are Coin Spenders Engines?' discussion out of 9.3 Patch Notes. It is an interesting topic on its own and has nothing to do with 9.3 Patch Notes.
These two are definitely way closer to an engine than BGF. Because they actually generate additional points through meeting conditions. BGF or Freakshow on the other hand are pure pointslam. But you're right, let's keep this out of the thread.
 
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Still, it's a spender but not an engine, to me. ( It never ends !! :) )
Well, then that's your opinion and i'll respect that. :) I did my best to explain my point of view and at this point if people still don't agree than i have nothing left to add.

But I think we should take this 'Are Coin Spenders Engines?' discussion out of 9.3 Patch Notes. It is an interesting topic on its own and has nothing to do with 9.3 Patch Notes.
Yep, i agree.
 
I agree that BGF at 5 power would be fair

5 for 4 plus spender is the norm. As is 6 for 5. 5 for 5 - nobody ever used that so they buffed it. If they nerf Friends, people will just switch to 2xArmorsmith, add a 5p crime and switch a 4p crime to another Jackal.

But 5 body 1 profit would actually be a cool slight nerf, or maybe buff? 1 profit is nice to get the boat out after 2 crimes and save the leader if not committing Justice in Round 1..

But this is a good point to think - is SJ and TD engines? Because when they spend the coins, they generate more points over and above the points the original coin generator card played for. I didn't consider SJ or TD as engines. At least now I am confused about SJ and TD. You made a very good point.


Theoretically, no, because despite adding value to coins they slam that value not generate it over timeout of nothing. Basically they add valuee to profit card post factum.

But it depends how you define engine and pointslam.
 
Tunnel Drill is definitely not an engine. It is a control/removal tool.

My own definition of an engine is a card that generates points passively, without you having to interact with it after you play it in order for it to gain value. I don't think there is an engine card in this game that generates value without a condition. Or I can't think of them now.

Sea Jackal sits at the twilight. He generates value, but not passively. Thus he is not entirely an engine. The term 'spender' is more appropriate. You generate coins and then interact with Sea Jackal to spend them.

BGF is not an engine either. He is a control/carryover tool. Carryover in the sense that bleeding does not provide immediate point value.

SY has its own engines. Peaches for example, or Saul, or Hound, or Seductress, or Bincy, or Fallen Knight, or Von Herst, or Townsfolk, all Intimidate units, etc. These are the type of units I consider to be engines in SY.
 
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