PC mouse and keyboard controls

[moonknightgog]

A commercial one. A reasonable one, where you compromise on many factors, including controls. Where PC is no better or more important than consoles. Belittling others wishes is one way of saying, "your priorities are not ours" but it's a highly prejudicial way of doing so.

Actually not. They are selling a game on PC, then they HAVE to optimize the interface for the PC primary controls (m/k).

 

[Sardukhar]

Actually not. They are selling a game on PC, then they HAVE to optimize the interface for the PC primary controls (m/k).

We-ell. No, they don't. They can, in fact, optimize for trackball. Or touchscreen. Whatever their engineers and marketing compromise on. As long as it doesn't increase complexity, add any other kind of cost, discernably reduce sales or - preferably - add to sales. Those are the goalposts. Make it work, make it reasonable to implement, try not to piss off too many people and if you're - really - on the ball, maybe even add to sales - but that's pretty hard to check. Great selling well-loved games - such as Skyrim - have had so-so implementation and that's that. The hardcore, PC-or-die crowd are a minority in terms of sales and in terms of implentation needs. Yay for modding?

Mostly, they'll -probably- go for a combo of console needs and PC needs. Hard to read, I know, but that's how it is. Hey, I hope it's not the case myself, but that's not the odds I'm betting on.

Here's how you can tell if your wants have pull: if you see a company respond to them in a clearly discernible manner. Now, we have had Reds post here saying the controls were fine for him and that's it. But that was in a very casual, non-specific manner. Hardly an indicator of the concern for PC-centric needs. Which, to be fair, often vary widely among users.

So that indicates they aren't forbidden to talk about it and also indicates it's either a nonissue for them or too close to release to worry about among the 100+ other issues they deal with.

 

[moonknightgog]

We-ell. No, they don't. They can, in fact, optimize for trackball. Or touchscreen. Whatever their engineers and marketing compromise on. As long as it doesn't increase complexity, add any other kind of cost, discernably reduce sales or - preferably - add to sales. Those are the goalposts. Make it work, make it reasonable to implement, try not to piss off too many people and if you're - really - on the ball, maybe even add to sales - but that's pretty hard to check. Great selling well-loved games - such as Skyrim - have had so-so implementation and that's that. The hardcore, PC-or-die crowd are a minority in terms of sales and in terms of implentation needs. Yay for modding?

Mostly, they'll -probably- go for a combo of console needs and PC needs. Hard to read, I know, but that's how it is. Hey, I hope it's not the case myself, but that's not the odds I'm betting on.

Here's how you can tell if your wants have pull: if you see a company respond to them in a clearly discernible manner. Now, we have had Reds post here saying the controls were fine for him and that's it. But that was in a very casual, non-specific manner. Hardly an indicator of the concern for PC-centric needs. Which, to be fair, often vary widely among users.

So that indicates they aren't forbidden to talk about it and also indicates it's either a nonissue for them or too close to release to worry about among the 100+ other issues they deal with.

Still, there is the fact that I'm paying money for the game. So, because I'm paying, my experience has to be as much comfortable as possible. If navigate through the menus is a pain in the ass, then next time I will think twice before buy their next game.
If I'm not so important just because I'm a minority and the fact that I'm a customer doesn't mean anything, then neither my money does. Don't you agree with that?

 

[Sardukhar]

If I'm not so important just because I'm a minority and the fact that I'm a customer doesn't mean anything, then neither my money does. Don't you agree with that?

An excellent point and leads us to the necessary disjunction beyween consumer of a product and producers. Short answer: no, you aren't that important, but your money is. Well, your money in terms of the market your money represents.

Look, we all have different wants. Every customer does, which scales with the complexity of the product. Most of us want an apple to be crisp, clean, no worms and flavourful. Also inexpensive. Everyone wants more for less. Some of us don't care that much about crispness, others rub it on their jeans to clean it, etc. You get what I'm saying. Everyone wants flavour.

So the trick, if you produce and market apples, is to find the -necessary- wants of your market and aim to fulfill those better than your competition. This can be done by also fulfilling the other wants - more crisp! Or costs less! This can also be done by persuading your market to want different things, that you can more easily supply.

So, in the case of your, moonknights wants and even needs, CDPR wants to fulfill your needs for a CRPG and as many of your wants as they can, while still making a viable product AND keeping you as a future customer. Note: when I say "you" I mean the demographic you represent, of course, as best as they can discern.

They know this will not always happen, of course. Any producer does. But they try to hit as many boxes as they can.

The compromises begin early - waht does artistic want? What does engineering say can be done? What does financial say cannot be done? They must then try to fulfill your needs and as many wants as they can, within that structure.

What kind of options you get, in the final product, is indicative of what market they were aiming at, and what compromises were arrived at.

This is not a pure process. Errors are often made. Incomprehensible to us in many cases, sometimes because we lack the necessary data and sometimes because the producer/artist flat-out screwed up. Also because marketing's job is to hype you as much as possible. Even CDPR marketing, who portray - and generally are - a customer friendly producer.

How successful they are is determined by how your dollar is spent. They have been successful in the past at this. Whether they will be this time depends on your wants and needs.

This is why I say do NOT preorder, unless you have a lot of faith and don't mind the gamble. Or are willing to chop your preorder as the videos hit.

Also why I wish we could preload without preordering.

So, in short, I do agree with you, yes, and you should vote with your dollar. And, of course, reasonable, friendly, polite discourse on these forums.

 

[mecha_fish]

Still, there is the fact that I'm paying money for the game. So, because I'm paying, my experience has to be as much comfortable as possible. If navigate through the menus is a pain in the ass, then next time I will think twice before buy their next game.
If I'm not so important just because I'm a minority and the fact that I'm a customer doesn't mean anything, then neither my money does. Don't you agree with that?

Then it's probably not an issue for them if you don't buy the game (or future games for that matter). If this minority was a threat to profits, then it would be different. Actions speak louder than words, and it seems that the actions of a minority don't really compare to the actions of the majority. This forum is just words. It's probably best to not have an attitude that implies that you're owed anything when it comes to this sort of thing. I'm not sure how to word it, but it just doesn't seem like a good idea. You'll be bummed out regardless.

I am glad to hear that keys are rebindable and I look forward to seeing the PC ui and seeing if I care enough for modding it. Raw mouse input would be nice, but I'm emotionally prepared for that not being the case.

 

[Guest 3790055]

What...... WASD to move and A to block? How can A be for block if it's already being used in the movement controls. By your comment seems like you never played a game on PC with M+K.

That was just an example, calm down. I'm French so keyboards aren't the same here (AZERTY), I mad a bad mix with QWERTY. (I meant Q to block.)

It's about the UI. If the UI sucks, because it's meant to be played with a controller and the conversion with mouse/keybord is only 1:1 about the buttons, then it really ruins your navigation into the menus.

The UI can't be worst than TW2 UI, which was a real console UI (worse than Skyrim, imo) and the game was PC only at release... And that was playable.
Now in TW3 you have a console UI but with some nice PC-inspired menus like the items grid. It's fair enough for a multiplatform game.

 

[Kinley]

Let's try and discuss things without adhominem attacks, please.

A post has been deleted.

 

[moonknightgog]

An excellent point and leads us to the necessary disjunction beyween consumer of a product and producers. Short answer: no, you aren't that important, but your money is. Well, your money in terms of the market your money represents.

Look, we all have different wants. Every customer does, which scales with the complexity of the product. Most of us want an apple to be crisp, clean, no worms and flavourful. Also inexpensive. Everyone wants more for less. Some of us don't care that much about crispness, others rub it on their jeans to clean it, etc. You get what I'm saying. Everyone wants flavour.

So the trick, if you produce and market apples, is to find the -necessary- wants of your market and aim to fulfill those better than your competition. This can be done by also fulfilling the other wants - more crisp! Or costs less! This can also be done by persuading your market to want different things, that you can more easily supply.

So, in the case of your, moonknights wants and even needs, CDPR wants to fulfill your needs for a CRPG and as many of your wants as they can, while still making a viable product AND keeping you as a future customer. Note: when I say "you" I mean the demographic you represent, of course, as best as they can discern.

They know this will not always happen, of course. Any producer does. But they try to hit as many boxes as they can.

The compromises begin early - waht does artistic want? What does engineering say can be done? What does financial say cannot be done? They must then try to fulfill your needs and as many wants as they can, within that structure.

What kind of options you get, in the final product, is indicative of what market they were aiming at, and what compromises were arrived at.

This is not a pure process. Errors are often made. Incomprehensible to us in many cases, sometimes because we lack the necessary data and sometimes because the producer/artist flat-out screwed up. Also because marketing's job is to hype you as much as possible. Even CDPR marketing, who portray - and generally are - a customer friendly producer.

How successful they are is determined by how your dollar is spent. They have been successful in the past at this. Whether they will be this time depends on your wants and needs.

This is why I say do NOT preorder, unless you have a lot of faith and don't mind the gamble. Or are willing to chop your preorder as the videos hit.

Also why I wish we could preload without preordering.

So, in short, I do agree with you, yes, and you should vote with your dollar. And, of course, reasonable, friendly, polite discourse on these forums.

I understand, but how much can cost make 2 different UIs?
In my humble opinion, I don't think it is so expensive. Take 200.000€ from the marketing budget, and put that money to solving this issue.
Quality > Marketing, when it comes to sell something.

 

[Kinley]

I understand, but how much can cost make 2 different UIs?
In my humble opinion, I don't think it is so expensive. Take 200.000€ from the marketing budget, and put that money to solving this issue.
Quality > Marketing, when it comes to sell something.

Easy to say when you have no stake in the actual development process. Every cent is allocated way ahead of time, you can't shift funds so lightly, especially when you run a large business as CDPR's.

 

[Sardukhar]

I understand, but how much can cost make 2 different UIs?
In my humble opinion, I don't think it is so expensive. Take 200.000€ from the marketing budget, and put that money to solving this issue.
Quality > Marketing, when it comes to sell something.

I wish that were true. I do. As a huge fan of Troika games and Vampire: Bloodlines, ( bug addled as it was) as opposed to the much more popular CoD series (which I'm not opposed to), Marketing typically trumps Quality easily. Fortunately, CDPR tries for a balance and lets Creative have a very strong, if not the strongest voice.

It doesn't always make sense to me either. Like I said, W2 chapter 3 was "huh?" to me. The cursed mouse acceleration was frustrating. Those weird hatched shadows.

But it's about compromise. If we're lucky, the MKB and appropriate UI are natural for those schemes. If not, history says it'll still be playable, if not great.

 

[Maverick89]

PC gamers are the pne who bought the firts 2 games, the only reason for these game being made it's because of pc gamer. PC gamers aren't a minority Sardukhar we are the majority of Witcher buyers and CDPR haven't made a single video with MK controls.

 

[Dantoki]

I found this in Jesse's gameplay.
View attachment 13309

 

[thislsmadness]

I found this in Jesse's gameplay.
View attachment 13309

Yeah the game seamlessly swaps between control inputs. When he was cheering he probably bumped the mouse which caused it to switch to KB/M inputs.

PC gamers are the pne who bought the firts 2 games, the only reason for these game being made it's because of pc gamer. PC gamers aren't a minority Sardukhar we are the majority of Witcher buyers and CDPR haven't made a single video with MK controls.

The harsh reality is that CDPR does not owe you anything. The only thing that exists between us and them is a business arrangement predicated on money. They made a product that appeals to you and you bought it, that's all there is to it. That doesnt make you responsible for their success and it certainly doesnt mean that they have any obligation to you moving forward.

CDPR is better than most businesses, they tend to act in a good natured and fair manner... but they are still a business and you are still just a consumer.

 

[joshmosh]

CDPR is better than most businesses, they tend to act in a good natured and fair manner... but they are still a business and you are still just a consumer.

This is true. They don't owe PC gamers anything. However, we're not asking for special treatment here. We just want a product that's the best it could be on the platform we choose to play on. It is an undeniable fact that a UI designed around a controller is very different to one that's designed around a mouse and keyboard, especially when it comes to RPGs. It's also a fact that using a mouse and keyboard with a console-centric UI makes for a worse experience. You can understand why some sections of the PC customer base would be miffed that consoles are receiving more love than them. We get that CDPR is a business, and that the console market might be more lucrative to them than the PC. This doesn't mean being relegated to the back burner is something we can just swallow and ignore.

Then again, this is all speculation and we won't know exactly how much work they have put into the PC version until launch, so it's best not to become hasty with our pitchforks. If, however, it does turn out that they have neglected the PC version because they didn't have the time nor the resources to do it justice, I would recommend that people vote with their wallets. Most of us will still buy and play this game, but for future CDPR releases, I would recommend exercising caution and refraining from pre-ordering or becoming over-hyped.

 

[thislsmadness]

This is true. They don't owe PC gamers anything. However, we're not asking for special treatment here. We just want a product that's the best it could be on the platform we choose to play on. It is an undeniable fact that a UI designed around a controller is very different to one that's designed around a mouse and keyboard, especially when it comes to RPGs. It's also a fact that using a mouse and keyboard with a console-centric UI makes for a worse experience. You can understand why some sections of the PC customer base would be miffed that consoles are receiving more love than them. We get that CDPR is a business, and that the console market might be more lucrative to them than the PC. This doesn't mean being relegated to the back burner is something we can just swallow and ignore.

I'm not at all saying that anyone has to swallow or ignore anything. I'm only responding to the "You would be nothing without us" mentality of the post I quoted.

Then again, this is all speculation and we won't know exactly how much work they have put into the PC version until launch, so it's best not to become hasty with our pitchforks. If, however, it does turn out that they have neglected the PC version because they didn't have the time nor the resources to do it justice, I would recommend that people vote with their wallets. Most of us will still buy and play this game, but for future CDPR releases, I would recommend exercising caution and refraining from pre-ordering or becoming over-hyped.

I totally agree. If anyone feels that CDPR has slighted their interests and is not providing a product worthy of their hard earned money... don't give it to them.

 

[Sardukhar]

I totally agree. If anyone feels that CDPR has slighted their interests and is not providing a product worthy of their hard earned money... don't give it to them.

And that's fair enough.

Having said that, I would -never- make a buying decision about a game that looked good to me based on if it neglected one or two or three things. MKB controls are nice, especially if optimized, but I learned to play Dark Souls on a console because that was the only way I could try it - and the same for The Last of Us at the time. Also Red Dead Redemption.

All of these are good games...that I..never finished...hey! Maybe I -do- need great MKB controls to finish a game!

But seriously - don't let one or two flaws deny you a memorable gaming experience. Imagine if your preference for real time had made you miss out on Fallout 1 and 2, or your anger at the many bugs had denied you that marvelous, amazing first experience with Bloodlines, ( the haunted hotel HAS to be a gaming high point for RPG fans) or if your intense dislike of the skill-based shooting accuracy in Deus Ex 1 meant you passed it up. Or the boss fights in DXHR.

These are picadilloes, annoying touches in an otherwise fantastic game.

The MKB in W3 will be serviceable at least - if we're fortunate, better than serviceable. I really also hope they learned from the crappy UI of Witcher 2, and it appears they did. So, smiles on and forwards to glory!

 

[SmokyMelon]

Sorry if this has already been addressed, but in TW2 the key to dodge was the space bar now in TW3 space bar is used to jump. So I was wondering how would we dodge with mouse and keyboard and which key is it to dodge now?

I only ask because I personally thought space bar worked fairly well for dodging in TW2.

 

[arkhenon]

Spacebar would probably roll this time around (Geralt doesn't jump in combat as far as I know, and spacebar's action changes into antoher use). Sidestep would be another button though. Maybe Shift or something? Meh, you'll be able to fully bind them to the buttons that you actually want anyway.

 

[thislsmadness]

And that's fair enough.

Having said that, I would -never- make a buying decision about a game that looked good to me based on if it neglected one or two or three things. MKB controls are nice, especially if optimized, but I learned to play Dark Souls on a console because that was the only way I could try it - and the same for The Last of Us at the time. Also Red Dead Redemption.

All of these are good games...that I..never finished...hey! Maybe I -do- need great MKB controls to finish a game!

But seriously - don't let one or two flaws deny you a memorable gaming experience. Imagine if your preference for real time had made you miss out on Fallout 1 and 2, or your anger at the many bugs had denied you that marvelous, amazing first experience with Bloodlines, ( the haunted hotel HAS to be a gaming high point for RPG fans) or if your intense dislike of the skill-based shooting accuracy in Deus Ex 1 meant you passed it up. Or the boss fights in DXHR.

These are picadilloes, annoying touches in an otherwise fantastic game.

The MKB in W3 will be serviceable at least - if we're fortunate, better than serviceable. I really also hope they learned from the crappy UI of Witcher 2, and it appears they did. So, smiles on and forwards to glory!

I agree wholeheartedly. As a PC gamer, I do not at all feel like I'm being treated like a second class citizen. I expect I'm going to be getting the best performing, best looking, and (as a result) the best playing version of the game. I'm also not at all married to either input, I'm flexible enough to be happy with either. My faith in CDPR is not at all shaken by space bar icon in the UI.

 

[lord_blex]

Spacebar would probably roll this time around (Geralt doesn't jump in combat as far as I know, and spacebar's action changes into antoher use). Sidestep would be another button though. Maybe Shift or something? Meh, you'll be able to fully bind them to the buttons that you actually want anyway.

I'm hesitant to trust that "fully bind"-comment. there are games that have multiple actions on the same key and you can't separate them. you can still "fully rebind" every key, just not every action. let's hope for the best though.