PC mouse and keyboard controls

[shawn_kh]

@shawn_kh
Eh I still don't see the point in doing that. Even games developed primarily for Gamepads, like the Arkham Series or AssCreed, have IMO STILL felt better to play on a KB/M. Just absolutely NOTHING tops the precision of a mouse, the ability to rotate a camera MUCH faster than a stick can and just in general make much faster and precise decisions regarding just about any Gameplay scenario.
The Souls series is literally the only "Multiplat" games ever where I've used a Gamepad over KB/M, simply because both 1 & 2 had such botched port jobs that all the pop-ups and descriptions had Xbox buttons on them. DSMouseFix wasn't working for me, so I just said "Fuck it" and used a Gamepad.
Even then I've heard people who played it with KB/M who still said the experience was better because they didn't have to rely so much on lock-on and could react quicker to enemies movements due to faster camera panning etc.

It's kind of sad these days to see so many PC Gamers just downplay KB/M Controls and make out like as if just because it's developed for a Console means you should be using a Gamepad - most of them probably don't even TRY to use KB/M because they've got this strange notion that it'll play like shit. (Not you of course mate, but many people do)
I would honestly never buy a Gamepad if I didn't already have one from my Console purchase - put that $60 towards your next GPU upgrade.

Sure, the Gamerstar guy said that the M/KB controls are a bit iffy, but perhaps he thought TW2's controls were terrible in the first place? Or maybe he's more of a Gamepad fan in general? It's hard to know exactly, and whilst I certainly think Gamepads moved way up the priority scale when it came to controls in TW3, that still doesn't mean the M/KB controls is going to be awful. I've been a little 'doomsday' previously in the thread, but TW2's KB/M control I felt was still great, and it seems like TW3 is going to be roughly the same, so I reckon it will STILL control better with KB/M unless they've severely fucked something up.

I cannot play an Assassin's Creed with KB/M even if my life depended on it.
I think Arkham games are actually better with KB/M, and KB/M is also superior in shooters.
But playing the Witcher 2 with KB/M was not my preferred way, and I used a PS3 controller using Motioninjoy. I beat Witcher 2 using KB/M on my first playthrough, but I used a controller for the second playthrough and it really improved the gameplay especially the combat. Witcher 2 worked really good with a controller, and so I suspect Witcher 3 is going to be the same.

 

[damascus57]

Haven't read most of the thread but I do want to hope that people have mentioned the considerable lag in the mouse input in the Witcher 2. I played Witcher 1 on my old AMD computer back in 2008, and the frames per second were actually worse on that machine than they were for Assasins of Kings on my new one, but the mouse performed much better. It was as if Witcher 1 was using the standard windows mouse input and AOK was using a proxy so that the mouse input could come from either a controller or a mouse. Hopefully The Wild Hunt will resolve this issue, but saying that mouse input lags because of FPS seems downright silly.

 

[sidspyker]

Yeah there was a mouse acceleration issue in TW2, that is what bothered me, A LOT. Really hope TW3 has raw mouse input.

 

[Scholdarr.452]

Yeah there was a mouse acceleration issue in TW2, that is what bothered me, A LOT. Really hope TW3 has raw mouse input.

Raw mouse input should be a standard feature for every PC game in 2015. Everything else would be a huge disappointment.

 

[thislsmadness]

Sure, the Gamerstar guy said that the M/KB controls are a bit iffy, but perhaps he thought TW2's controls were terrible in the first place? Or maybe he's more of a Gamepad fan in general? It's hard to know exactly, and whilst I certainly think Gamepads moved way up the priority scale when it came to controls in TW3, that still doesn't mean the M/KB controls is going to be awful. I've been a little 'doomsday' previously in the thread, but TW2's KB/M control I felt was still great, and it seems like TW3 is going to be roughly the same, so I reckon it will STILL control better with KB/M unless they've severely fucked something up.

You may be onto something there. I admit that I totally have a bias when it comes to playing "character action" games with a controller, since consoles are where I started playing those types of games with stuff like DMC and Ninja Gaiden. Likewise, I am still bothered by playing fps with a controller just because my brain is so adpated to playing them on kb/m. So I probably could not offer a fair comparison between m/kb and controllers in either of these genres.

When I played the Witcher 2 the first time I actually did it with kb/m and I didnt appreciate the way that game controlled... Reading comments here I'm actually quite surprised others thought so highly of them. I cant even necessarily tell you why. TW2 on a controller wasnt so good either since the game doesnt have the "smart" camera or targeting functionality that is standard in other action games. The analogue movement feels really stiff and stilted, as if its just simulating WASD instead of true 360 movement. Also, for all the crap that UI gets for being "consolized" it really is a nightmare to navigate with a controller. Despite all of that I still prefer TW2 with a controller, especially now that I know how to fully rebind keys without having to use the terrible in game interface.

 

[sidspyker]

Yeah everyone seems to say that, people make accusations of "consolized UI" and yet nobody seems to like using it with a controller. You aren't the only one

Same here, i bought controller to play metal gear rising (even though that game had pretty good m&k support, the way the game was designed doesn't work with m&k, completely opposite to dark souls for example). I was playing and i had kinda fun on easy difficulty but i completely suck at using controller. Couldn't beat Sam on easy and stopped playing. Also getting this bloody thing to work was a nightmare. Now for some reason when i use it the analog sticks doesn't work, not sure what happened.

I played MGRR with a keyboard and mouse. The blade mode gets VERY annoying to do with keyboard and mouse yeah, I managed to beat it though, the ending boss fight has plenty of blade mode moments, that's where I struggled really hard. But I'm very stubborn

 

[Scholdarr.452]

You may be onto something there. I admit that I totally have a bias when it comes to playing "character action" games with a controller, since consoles are where I started playing those types of games with stuff like DMC and Ninja Gaiden. Likewise, I am still am bothered by playing fps with a controller just because my brain is so adpated to playing them on kb/m. So I probably could not offer a fait comparison between m/kb and controllers in either of these genres.

When I played the Witcher 2 the first time I actually did it with kb/m and I didnt appreciate the way that game controlled... Reading comments here I'm actually quite surprised others thought so highly of them. I cant even necessarily tell you why. TW2 on a controller wasnt so good either since the game doesnt have the "smart" camera or targeting functionality that is standard in other action games. The analogue movement feels really stiff and stilted, as if its just simulating WASD instead of true 360 movement. Also, for all the crap that UI gets for being "consolized" it really is a nightmare to navigate with a controller. Despite all of that I still prefer TW2 with a controller, especially now that I know how to fully rebind keys without having to use the terrible in game interface.

I think the issue here is that according to the Gamestar journalist the controller controls are much better now in TW3 (compared to TW2) while the M/K controls mostly stayed on the same level. It really depends in that case how one personally evaluated the controls in TW2. For those of us who weren't really happy with the M/K controls in TW2 this is certainly bad news. For people who want to play TW3 on a controller it's quite good news instead I guess...

And yeah, everyone has a "controller preference", mostly based on experience, skill and habituation. Some more, some less, also depending on your "gaming heritage". Some of us would never play a 3rd person slasher with a controller, other would never play it with M/K. There's no golden path.

Yeah everyone seems to say that, people make accusations of "consolized UI" and yet nobody seems to like using it with a controller. You aren't the only one

The UI is consolized - if you look at it from a PC gamer perspective. At the same time it's also PC-centric - if you look at it from a console gamer perspective. The real problem is the unified approach. That already sucked in Dragon Age. It actually sucked in every single multiplatform game I know. Not because it was unplayable in each case, far from it. But because it was unoptimized in most cases with huge potential for improvements for EACH platform. For example the UI of DAI feels unoptimized and tedious on PC AND on console. The same will probably apply to TW3 as it imho applied to TW2.

If you want to understand the "consolized" posts you must know that this is coming from PC people playing Witcher games (and many other games) on M/K from the very beginning. In their view it's indeed consolized because of its nature as a "compromise".

I still can't get over it that CDPR's probable "magnus opus" won't get full optimization for each platform in terms of UI and controls. I just don't get it that they decided to not do optimized solutions like e.g. Blizzard did for Diablo 3. To me that would have been much, much more important that making ultra graphics just for PC. It's one of these sad things that can drag a 10/10 or 9/10 game down to a 8/10 game at best, just because the feel of the controls feel unoptimized and even somewhat tedious over time. Quality of life features, user friendliness and comfort are saddly still hugely underestimated features in gaming on a big scale, with TW3 obviously being no exception...

 

[thislsmadness]

I think the issue here is that according to the Gamestar journalist the controller controls are much better now in TW3 (compared to TW2) while the M/K controls mostly stayed on the same level. It really depends in that case how one personally evaluated the controls in TW2. For those of us who weren't really happy with the M/K controls in TW2 this is certainly bad news. For people who want to play TW3 on a controller it's quite good news instead I guess...

And yeah, everyone has a "controller preference", mostly based on experience, skill and habituation. Some more, some less, also depending on your "gaming heritage". Some of us would never play a 3rd person slasher with a controller, other would never play it with M/K. There's no golden path.

Yeah, it definitely sounds like they've drastically corrected everything wrong with the controller in Witcher 2. My point is that if the author of the article has a strong bias for the controller then he probably wouldn't be someone who can offer an entirely objective opinion about kb/m... You have to wonder how much of his preference is factoring into the "squishiness" he's describes. Because, as someone that has a controller bias, even if they improved mouse acceleration, I would still say that the controller feels better.

Im not saying that that is the case, I have no idea what experience he has had with TW2 or what control type he prefers. I was just agreeing with Vigilance that its a possibility.

 

[Sirnaq]

Sadly this hasn't been the case with me, I've been playing games on the NES, PSOne, PS2 and even some on the PS3 but a controller just doesn't sit well with me. I like extreme precision. So a 1000hz polling mouse at 3500DPI constantly is what works for me The controller has its advantages but it just does not work for me personally.

Same here, i bought controller to play metal gear rising (even though that game had pretty good m&k support, the way the game was designed doesn't work with m&k, completely opposite to dark souls for example). I was playing and i had kinda fun on easy difficulty but i completely suck at using controller. Couldn't beat Sam on easy and stopped playing. Also getting this bloody thing to work was a nightmare. Now for some reason when i use it the analog sticks doesn't work, not sure what happened.

Edit: Considering m&k and controller in witcher we need someone to review m&k controls, not tell us which one is better because it's subjective. Somebody like me that hates controllers will tell you that m&k is better and someone without experience in using m&k will tell you that controller is better. We need to know how m&k operate, is there some bullshit like reverse mouse acceleration etc.

 

[sidspyker]

If you want to understand the "consolized" posts you must know that this is coming from PC people playing Witcher games (and many other games) on M/K from the very beginning. In their view it's indeed consolized because of its nature as a "compromise".

PC person playing games on Mouse & Keyboard from the beginning here, I still find the "consolized" argument misguided because Witcher 1 UI was also equally a hassle with having to mouse over each component to know what they were, that game had nothing to do with consoles. Granted it was great to have everything on 1 single screen without having to scroll or go into different menus, but that's trading one hassle for another. So I would say they're just not very good, irrespective of whether they're "PC centric", "Console centric" or "Unified" since I find all approaches(in this case) to have the same issues.

Obviously I'm stating this without mentioning other things - Like it didn't matter much in either of the two games since there were only a few things you needed to keep track of at once and a QUEST category was separate for quest items which made it easier.

 

[Sirnaq]

Well Sidspyker, one can argue that after you learned which icon represent which item you no longer need to hoover over them. For me personally it wasn't huge deal.

 

[sidspyker]

I already mentioned that twice, that it's offset by other design considerations but for the sake of argument I'm ignoring that for all of the approaches. But let's consider that for a moment. TW1 you can remember certain icons and in TW2 you can separate them by category which is rounable the same thing.

In my mind the ideal system would be where I can distinguish by icons, can sort by category AND can also see names of the components quickly without having to hover my mouse over each of them. Bonus points for not having to scroll a lot. Oddly enough that somewhat reminds me of SkyUI now that I think about it, except that doesn't have icons to distinguish easily.

And looking at this screenie(yes I never paid attention them before, don't judge me >_>), I find this just might be what I'm looking for, sort of... multiple items on one screen, the icons are relatively decent sized AND have categories still have to select them but I think I can deal with this.

We'll have to play to find out I guess

 

[archaven.84]

One of biggest problem for me in playing games using KB&M was i can't remember well which items/potions/weapons/skills/abilities that i hotkey on my KB&M and in the main game often it wasn't shown. In older games we have the hotbars and it's very helpful to gamers.

 

[dragonbird]

One of biggest problem for me in playing games using KB&M was i can't remember well which items/potions/weapons/skills/abilities that i hotkey on my KB&M and in the main game often it wasn't shown. In older games we have the hotbars and it's very helpful to gamers.

Oh yes.
As far as possible, I tend to remap so that they're similar in all games, but it isn't possible. At least Geralt only has a small number of signs.

 

[archaven.84]

Oh yes.
As far as possible, I tend to remap so that they're similar in all games, but it isn't possible. At least Geralt only has a small number of signs.

I'm not sure how moddable the game is. But i certainly hope many people will release some good UI mod that i like to try out . And on topic, i have a Logitech G700s mouse and i have 4 side buttons. Was wondering it's remappable for Witcher 3? Otherwise i would have to use a 3rd party application to map those buttons to keys on my keyboard to simulate them.

 

[dragonbird]

I just use the Logitech software if the game doesn't handle it. But TW2 did, so I'd be pretty surprised (and pissed-off) if you couldn't remap in TW3.

On the hotbar, it does depend on how many choices there are. When it's just the signs, and it's fixed, it's not that hard to remember, but if there are dynamic abilities, that may make it more of a problem.

 

[archaven.84]

I just use the Logitech software if the game doesn't handle it. But TW2 did, so I'd be pretty surprised (and pissed-off) if you couldn't remap in TW3.

On the hotbar, it does depend on how many choices there are. When it's just the signs, and it's fixed, it's not that hard to remember, but if there are dynamic abilities, that may make it more of a problem.

Keyboard has lots of keys. The one that can easily used without moving the fingers are 1-4, Tab, Alt, Q, E, C, W, R, T, F and Space. Often without hotbars i will have to memorize what will be my preferences when playing the game. There are potions, signs, swords (steel or silver), bombs? This time we have the crossbow too and i think throwing daggers are back to? In regards to bombs, there are few types of bombs and potions too. So if there are 3-4 different types of potions and bombs it'll need 6-8 keys already. Also traps?

The keys and controls are VERY important as i like combat being fluent and fast that you can make decisions during combat on the fly without going into menus or pull up that radial signs (which i will not be using). Those are really helpful mainly designed to be used with a controller.

Also, just highlighting. Most developers never use the TAB key which i find very useful where you can cycle thru menus ala Multiple Hotbars. As much as i hated these HUDs during exploration butt very useful during combat. And MOST developers FAILED in hiding it during non combat (Dragon Age Inquisition being one) which clearly means they never pour time and effort in getting the KB&M settings right but mainly focused on just controllers and that is why some gamers who uses gamepad never understands our concerns.

 

[dragonbird]

Keyboard has lots of keys. The one that can easily used without moving the fingers are 1-4, Tab, Alt, Q, E, C, W, R, T, F and Space. Often without hotbars i will have to memorize what will be my preferences when playing the game. There are potions, signs, swords (steel or silver), bombs? This time we have the crossbow too and i think throwing daggers are back to? In regards to bombs, there are few types of bombs and potions too. So if there are 3-4 different types of potions and bombs it'll need 6-8 keys already. Also traps?

OK, I definitely take your point

 

[tahirahmed]

I cannot play an Assassin's Creed with KB/M even if my life depended on it.
I think Arkham games are actually better with KB/M, and KB/M is also superior in shooters.
But playing the Witcher 2 with KB/M was not my preferred way, and I used a PS3 controller using Motioninjoy. I beat Witcher 2 using KB/M on my first playthrough, but I used a controller for the second playthrough and it really improved the gameplay especially the combat. Witcher 2 worked really good with a controller, and so I suspect Witcher 3 is going to be the same.

It's more about personal preference mate, I for example never feel comfortable holding a controller and I always get confused pressing buttons due everything being very close to each other so KB/M is my preferred way from the very childhood and that's why I expect those controls to be top notch and yes the mouse acceleration should go away. Please CDPR use this last month to optimize KB/M controls.

 

[Reverendblue]

It appears that Dragon Age Inquisition just now got a patch to enable the use of mouse buttons beyond button 1 and 2..Lets hope that we get a better effort from CDPR on the PC controls side.