People that are older than the gaming generation

+
LOL! I'm guessing you mean anecdotal evidence versus numbers? != true! LOL ~= yes.
Post automatically merged:


Depends on what you do with a computer. For me, writing code is just as much of a game as those that exist in the material world or those that are specifically called video games. In the case of code, I've rarely written it on paper. But on a video screen, in volumes.
Post automatically merged:
Oh there a lots of things we do in life indeed.
For me, Cyberpunk 2077 does what TV used to do. It's why I bought the entire witcher series but haven't gotten around to it yet. I'm not a big fan of euro fantasy as I am in the cyberpunk genre. But I bought it in appreciation of what was done with cyberpunk and I've seen enough about the branching of the story that I think that I may like it. I'm into old-school RPGs that were designed for replayability. I mean this with severity when I say that I think Cyberpunk 2077 is the best RPG since Planescape's Torment.

Neither The Witcher or CDPR appealed to me until I encountered the marketing for CP77. For me, what they are doing, and what I've heard of their mission statement for gaming, told me that they intend to replace movies and TV shows with games as good as them. I'm a person that can't watch a movie and do "nothing". I have to be doing something. Maybe that's my conditioning of being a video gamer since childhood. If I have to sit through fiction, I want to be interacting with it. Also, the computer nerd in me is "infatuated" with new technologies like what's being done with Unreal Engine and JALI. I work in a data center and my academic background is in Computer programming, IT, and Int'l Business MGMT, respectively. Obviously, the "project" of CP77 is a culmination of my unrelated life efforts. It would be impossible for me to NOT be attracted to it, regardless of the politics.
For me cyberpunk has always been far more apolitical than people often take it at these days. I read Neuromancer by William Gibson in early '90s but there were other things, real life things like '80s consumerism and works that made satire of that attitude like Robocop (1987, Verhoeven work) and lot's of things. Neuromancer made me realize certain things and I started to find out about economics, went to tech later but I also took lectures about philosophy and art history, I was curious what drives people to want what they want. Outer Worlds I mentioned earlier it can be seen as moral story or economical story but it's about losing shared reality and thinking of Capitol Hill a year ago, historically it's not new phenomena at all but there thousands of years old stone tablets about historical events and that.

For me I left story driven games behind years ago, it's not to say games were bad but they simply didn't grew up with me. It was quite a threshold to play Outer Worlds and I was really surprised.

Not to forget cyberpunk, thin line between that reality and ours, that was always what made cyberpunk genre stand out from the rest of speculative fiction and game really delivers on that. Just saying that game doesn't need to be cyberpunk to be relevant.

The 'gamer generation' is a funny term and feels like a pretty broad one since people on video games can vary in ages from below 10 to above 40? I'm just pulling random numbers smh.

If theres any amount of people playing 'violant vidya gams' over the age of 40, they are pretty few in number compared to people in their teens and twenties.

I'm assuming a lot of older generations don't care about video games as much since they lived happy lives without them. Seeing a bunch of teens and young adults play games for hours probably isn't making video games look good.
Indeed. There's difference seeing the world through the eyes of 10 years old, teenager, and below 26 and above that.

Thinking how games has changed, my first computer was Commodore 64 and there were complex games, gotta say part of gaming on that era home computers was that it was easy to get games. But anyway, I recall I had the first Wasteland and some other that was space adventure but I never finished them. There were Shoot 'em Up's that took long to master but could be finished fast if you knew what to do. Fighting games, sport games and they had this great feature in common that you played them and then forgot them.

Games gotten more complex, sometimes it works, Gran Turismo is sort of great divider that came between simulation and arcade. Best of both worlds in racing achieve is that once player beats learning curve, more options player have via control to vehicle and play like 20 minutes that might be depending of car class and circuit 3 minutes where there's need to really focus. Lot's of shopping lists, job conversations and general down shifting from work mode has been done around the world when playing Gran Turismo or such. But then there's is this 24/7 gaming type and for each to their own but, well it's good to know if not for any other reason but say in our family / extended family, say my brother and their kids are still small and that sort of thing just ain't going to happen.

Thinking, like what I wrote earlier if I were 10 years older I would just look at that and think how much time is spent to something that doesn't translate to real life skill.
It seems there is always an exception though. I never watched her videos but I recall there used to be a 'skyrim grandma' some old lady that played the game. Watching other people play and comment on games is of no interest to me.

I have no clue how many people in each generation plays video games so my comment could be completely or partially wrong.

If you believe 'the gamer generation' has an unique perspective... Eeehh... I guess. Though being 'unique' doesn't translate to being interesting. By that logic you can call generations that grew up without video games 'unique' too. I mean they found stuff to entertain their time with.

When you ask your mom if she'd use technology of sci fi, I feel like that question is a bit rhetorical. If we grew up with the tech in sci fi movies of course the overwhelming majority would use it, but because it doesn't exist most people don't think about it. I enjoy entertaining the thought, but it's just that. A thought. A hypothetical scenario cause it's not gonna happen. If it does it ain't in our lifetimes. So when i do think about it, it's just fun speculation.
I don't know if it's that simple. What is video game? Story driven games and say Super Mario do very different things, then there are racing games, sports games even today but lots of games are today and I guess for a good while geared towards 7% demographic of population. They don't really compete against movies, novels or other forms of expression but gambling machines really, they want the same audience, same addicts as that works for their microtransaction driven economy.

I think generation Z might be first, might even go to Y, that has any real perspective to really evaluate video games in objective standards along other forms of expression.
 
I owned and played the first run of the Pong game. My parents did well enough financially and my mother was a teacher so they were progressive's about home tec even in the 60s. However I do not consider myself a "gamer". I never got into the arcade fad nor the early games like Mario brother or Sonic.

However there was one game in the arcade I would spend my money on, it was Battle Zone. I looked at this game and could imagine a future where you could walk around inside virtual environments. After that I started looking for games that scratch that primal VR itch I had even in the 80s such as Wolfenstein and then Doom.

Then after I retired from competition sword and shield martial arts (got too old and broken) I tried to find games that would replicate the FEELING of real combat. I found a few that did ok for its time such as blade of darkness and Dark Messiah of Might and Magic but they never did the shield mechanics right and the sword mechanics were not real enough either. That is when I started modding games to get the sword and shield mechanics better.

Oblivion was WONDEROUS! OMG I was in heaven as it I could make almost ANY mod I could imagine and this allowed me to make ALL the game mechanics I had been dreaming of for decades.

I started spending all my expendable money on things like a vest that you can wear to feel the hits in a game. I wanted to get close to a Holodeck experience. So I guess I was really more a VR enthusiast not a gamer.

We now have a few DEV that are doing a far better job with melee combat such as Hellish Quart.
However I find that I now need a convincing world to immerse in, eye candy and good story to finish any game even if it has good combat. So maybe I have finally become more of a gamer.

Edit: Got a question for the OP (or anyone) the way you think about your elders now with TEC and how it is lost on them. So how will it be when you are their age? What will the kids think looking at you playing those old open world RPGs with flat screens or even a silly helmet VR and wondering why you shun plugging the wireless sensory chip into your implanted head plug like a "normal" person?

"Grandpa said he use to be a E sport champion in this game once but we kick his butt all the time with our instant thought game interface while he wants to use that oldy "controller".
 
Last edited:
Thinking how games has changed, my first computer was Commodore 64 and there were complex games, gotta say part of gaming on that era home computers was that it was easy to get games.
Sounds familiar! That and a Vic 20.
Games gotten more complex, sometimes it works, Gran Turismo is sort of great divider that came between simulation and arcade. Best of both worlds in racing achieve is that once player beats learning curve, more options player have via control to vehicle and play like 20 minutes that might be depending of car class and circuit 3 minutes where there's need to really focus.
Reminds me of Need For Speed Porsche Edition.
Thinking, like what I wrote earlier if I were 10 years older I would just look at that and think how much time is spent to something that doesn't translate to real life skill.
Ironically, that's what I'm subversively looking at and looking for in this thread.
Edit: Got a question for the OP (or anyone) the way you think about your elders now with TEC and how it is lost on them. So how will it be when you are their age? What will the kids think looking at you playing those old open world RPGs with flat screens or even a silly helmet VR and wondering why you shun plugging the wireless sensory chip into your implanted head plug like a "normal" person?

"Grandpa said he use to be a E sport champion in this game once but we kick his butt all the time with our instant thought game interface while he wants to use that oldy "controller".
My dad was an electronic technician. He's 68. He did a lot to introduce me to tech. He used to take me to see stuff like Transformers, Short Circuit, and have me watch things like Strange Days and Johnny Mnemobic in my youth. He was more into Pool and Pinball than anything else, but he'd frequently play Ms. Pacman and Galaxian. I showed him Cyberpunk 2077, and he kinda yawned (probably from being tired and working on his car). My son is an avid gamer and loves fighting games and eco-sims. I honestly think about that question, OFTEN.

I send him videos about BCIs and what's currently going on in ML, AI, and robotics. I bought him a Mind Flex when he was a preteen. You've probably touched the Gist of this post more than you know.

1641590082476.png
 
Reminds me of Need For Speed Porsche Edition.
The one game worth playing in series.
Ironically, that's what I'm subversively looking at and looking for in this thread.
Skill can be understanding about something that can lead to further knowledge. I gave example from Neuromancer, the novel and two other works, Outer Words and Cyberpunk 2077.

Games like variations and combinations of puzzle games and platformers can be good distractions. Tomb Raider was mentioned in topic, I don't know what kind of games they are now, last one I played was TR2, but as example of that sort of combination and racing games can serve similar purpose as well.

Then games that focus on story aspects, that's where we get to examples I gave but the rest should be obvious if you think such games same way as works on other mediums, which doesn't mean every work out there, not very book nor movie is a classic.

Outer Worlds has this scene, there's player character and squad, they can meet and chat with an NPC with a moon hat in certain location. It's really brilliant writing to degree where some amateur theater group or such can adapt that and learn from what's going on there and make variations of that and it covers something very relevant to our time. That works because they don't need but a moon hat and a desk for props.

In CP 2077 there's way more such things. Sinnerman can be used, they wouldn't need a car chase. Raymond Chandler evening, make it about social media people, people reinventing themselves and role Silverhand plays there can be made to drive other realizations.

All of those examples could speak to non gamer generation as well they speak to gaming generations. Now what that means is video game media has created something that transcends across mediums, contribute something in intellectual sense.

That is very different to things that has materialized in a form of like endless stream of Resident Evil movies. Those products has every right to exists, but in the end they are just another type of advertising that sells 50 cents a day.
 
The one game worth playing in series.
You have taste!
Then games that focus on story aspects, that's where we get to examples I gave but the rest should be obvious if you think such games same way as works on other mediums, which doesn't mean every work out there, not very book nor movie is a classic.

Outer Worlds has this scene, there's player character and squad, they can meet and chat with an NPC with a moon hat in certain location. It's really brilliant writing to degree where some amateur theater group or such can adapt that and learn from what's going on there and make variations of that and it covers something very relevant to our time. That works because they don't need but a moon hat and a desk for props.
Outer Worlds is something that I've thought about getting around to. Thanks for the info.
In CP 2077 there's way more such things. Sinnerman can be used, they wouldn't need a car chase. Raymond Chandler evening, make it about social media people, people reinventing themselves and role Silverhand plays there can be made to drive other realizations.
Sinnerman, like the Paralez's Maelstrom chase, are in the same context. I understand!

Lately, because a lot of my interests revolve around NLP and Auto-Generated Narratives (GPT-3), I've been attracted to stuff that CP77 does well (but not perfectly). That being, conversational AI and "Decisions Really Matter" RPGs. Trying to project the future of gaming and trying to see how it fits in the notion of the "connected world" that actually is more divisive when it comes to the "opposite" of "social distancing" LOL. Folks that have participated in the internet long enough, especially in the pre-social media age, but particularly the Forum and Instant messenger age are more aware of the "unnecessary body phenomena" (pun unintended. More like "unnecessary body noumena") of like minds and collaborative minds.

Basically, the ability to navigate thoughts and patterns of thought creation. Individuals that area able to turn on and of their imaginations to see through and into digital facades masked by avatars and aliases. Some have it, some don't. Likewise, the way that "video" gamers interact with the world reminds me of that of Forums and IMs of yesteryear. Special Knowledge connecting with special knowledge (and the mechanics of how to navigate the rules/dimensions of it). A different version of the Gamer Generation
 
I've been playing video games since 1972 when my Dad got one for the Pool Hall he was a partner in. It was so popular that he bought 2 more and moved one of the slate bed coin operated pool tables into our rec room at home. At the same time I had an Uncle that worked as a prototype engineer at IBM Rochester, MN and a year later IBM San Jose CA where he worked building the original prototypes for the IBM PC. When the Atari 2600 came out my Dad bought one and got all 8 games that were available at the release. I ended up building a stand and screwing down 2 controllers so you could play it like an arcade. Around that same time I built a Altair 8800 from a partial kit (PCBs, a couple of ROMS and an ASIC if I remember right) and populated the rest of the components from "floor sweepings" my Uncle got from IBM. It didn't even have a video monitor, it used an old teletype machine my Dad had converted into radioteletype (He was also a licensed amateur) and we converted back. Later I got a TRS-80, an Apple IIe and a Commodore 64 and did a lot of gaming on all three and was proficient in porting basic programs between the 3 systems and had a few article published with some simple Basic electronics design programs I had written as well as a program for designing speaker cabinets and crossover networks. Then I worked for Gateway Computers when it was still run out of a converted machine shed on a farm in western Iowa as a components tester in the "Wild West" days of the IBM Compatibles. My job was taking parts sourced from Japanese and Taiwanese manufacturers (China wasn't even a blip on the radar back then) ... Motherboards, memory cards, video cards, sound cards, modems, serial/parallel port cards etc. and putting them together to find out which ones were truly IBM compatible (Less than 10%) because Gateway built their reputation around providing the most compatible computers on the market in the late 80's. One of the original owners thought I was wasted talent and gave me a full scholarship to Iowa State for Electronics Engineering even knowing that he'd lose me after I graduated. Still playing video games but now on IBM PCs and Amigas .... And of course the NES, Super NES and the N64 which was the last console I bought because it was the last time a console was better than a PC (And that didn't really last for much more than a year) Not only did I have a front row seat for the advent of video gaming I also had a front row seat for the advent of the Internet and last September marked my 30th straight year on the Internet and not many people can say that. I got to play Doom when it released, Quake, GTA before it was even released in the US (Got it from a backdoor FTP site at a British University that will go unnamed) Ran a NASCAR Racing server and league for 5 years in the early 00's and created custom car sets and tracks and then got into modding GTA games. In fact you'd be hard pressed to find a game on my computer that doesn't have at least one Mod and some like Skyrim have over 550 and Witcher 3 had 83 in my last run through the game. In a few months I'll mark my 50th year as a gamer a couple of months after I turn 63
 
I'm 66 years old. I was given my first board game at the age of 5 and collected and played many such games in my childhood and early youth, I enjoyed the strategy aspects of the games. I played my first arcade game at the age of 18 and played them from time to time after that, however in the early days of videogaming the games were mostly platformers, racing, beat-em-ups or shoot-em-ups (old terminology I expect). There was nothing that effectively replaced my interest until the advent of RPGs.

I enjoy the exploration and side quests of RPGs and the possibility to immerse myself in another reality. When I first played FF8 I found myself enjoying the card game and the quest of collecting all the cards as much if not more than the storyline. I've enjoyed card games in RPGs since then so trying Gwent was a natural progression for me.

Another reason why the young may appreciate different aspects of games to the old is the limitations placed on us by the ageing process. I no longer have the reaction time or speed of thought of my youth so shun combat games and the like. I also prefer turn based RPGs where I have more time to consider my actions than action RPGs. Thankfully developers of action RPGs usually include an option to reduce difficulty level which means I can play games that I otherwise would find frustrating.

I can't envisage a time when I won't enjoy gaming.
 
Your sample population is not well selected.
You can still massively expand your knowledge of (gaming) history.

The "gamer generation" are in fact 50-60 years old who have played from Elite on the c64 to Doom on the 386/486, e.g.

BTW, as an over50 I demand better of a game than walking around a Graphic Demo/Potemkin Village.
 
Some would argue that while games and toys in general are good for kids. When one matures, and still plays games or with toys, one might wonder if one really matured.

Also it seems gaming and also reading comics, watching movies or anime etc changed peoples perception of reality into an abstracted one which is a dangerous thing, making humans more mechanical and less spiritual.

Technology advances come from where? Who mandates the people to achieve the advancement? Inspiration? What is the goal for this?

Also electricity is a nice thing but it will surely have downsides right?
 
My dad is 65 and he played computer/video games since his 30s. Is it gaming generation or not?
 
As far as Shadowrun, do you mean trolls?
[...]
Yeah, you may be right. They look like Ogres to me. It was enough to put the game on the back burner for a while. I have to get myself in the mood to put fantasy creatures in my mix of computer sci-fi LOL!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
[...] I believe that there's a subspecies of them known as Ogres. Another big difference in the Shadowrun trilogy, which i assume means Returns, Dragonfall, and Hong Kong, is that it's in third person, and more turn based as far as combat. Feel free to message me in a conversation if you have other questions about the series. I'll answer them if i can. That's the major differences in setting, though. Both are cyberpunk as far as genre, but Shadowrun has spells and such, though you don't have to use them. There is an option for human as well, if you'd rather go that route. The player races are Human, Dwarf, Elf, Orc, and Troll, each with different stats.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Some would argue that while games and toys in general are good for kids. When one matures, and still plays games or with toys, one might wonder if one really matured.

Also it seems gaming and also reading comics, watching movies or anime etc changed peoples perception of reality into an abstracted one which is a dangerous thing, making humans more mechanical and less spiritual.

Technology advances come from where? Who mandates the people to achieve the advancement? Inspiration? What is the goal for this?

Also electricity is a nice thing but it will surely have downsides right?

Not sure I agree...especially with the abstract thinking and how that can be bad. Could you talk more/give examples? I am probably not understanding you:)
..and no, sorry, but an adult who watches anime is a well adjusted person:)
 
My dad is 65 and he played computer/video games since his 30s. Is it gaming generation or not?
Are you asking me? If so, my definition is as vague as Generation X or Baby Boomer. What do you think it is? I'm pretty sure better terminology can be found on Neilsen.
 
Some would argue that while games and toys in general are good for kids. When one matures, and still plays games or with toys, one might wonder if one really matured.
It unfortunate that the way things are debated in this ere makes discussing about certain subjects very difficult, but that is something discussed in academia, that is not to say, there issue isn't present in academia as well. What part of video games have in that is in that, I don't know.

There's been this trend that I found disturbing regarding movies, independent films and small budget productions, how much dedication movie critics has put on destroying any merit of movies from the Y generation writers and directors that covers certain aspects of reality.

Also it seems gaming and also reading comics, watching movies or anime etc changed peoples perception of reality into an abstracted one which is a dangerous thing, making humans more mechanical and less spiritual.
I don't think "abstracted" without further context is the term that really works in this context.
Technology advances come from where? Who mandates the people to achieve the advancement? Inspiration? What is the goal for this?

Also electricity is a nice thing but it will surely have downsides right?
I think CP 2077 take on this is very good one. People don't solve problems, they escape problems into braindances.
 
Not sure I agree...especially with the abstract thinking and how that can be bad. Could you talk more/give examples? I am probably not understanding you
You can say 'vegetable', but do you mean carrot or asparagus, cauliflower or something else?

Maybe you dislike eating vegetables, but also love fried cauliflower?


but an adult who watches anime is a well adjusted person
haha, i enjoyed Akira and Nausicaa, i guess i was being abstract myself, some anime can be really weird. Some in a inspiring way, some in a less mature way, some hypersexual or freakish, some might depict certain aspects of reality deformed or implausible. But you can easily put it aside as it is just an art form.


It unfortunate that the way things are debated in this ere makes discussing about certain subjects very difficult, but that is something discussed in academia, that is not to say, there issue isn't present in academia as well. What part of video games have in that is in that, I don't know.
It sure is :).

Some would argue that video games should only be educational and positive.


I don't think "abstracted" without further context is the term that really works in this context.
Hmm maybe generalized or deformed. Generalizing would lead to automated thinking?


There's been this trend that I found disturbing regarding movies, independent films and small budget productions, how much dedication movie critics has put on destroying any merit of movies from the Y generation writers and directors that covers certain aspects of reality.
Do elaborate!
Post automatically merged:

braindances.
i don't know what this means, it sounds like drugs? i didn't play cp2077. It does sound funny.
Post automatically merged:

i looked up Braindance: A braindance, commonly abbreviated to BD, allows the viewer to relive someone else's memory with all the senses, including emotions.

So something like reincarnation? Like e.g. you use some modern tech like say Bitcoin or blockchain and you explain it to your parents or some older people and they cannot follow, but you promote this and they feel alienated from society because, you cannot see it at first but later, maybe after they pass you feel remorse and after you pass you can swap places in the next incarnation?
 
Last edited:
You have taste!

Outer Worlds is something that I've thought about getting around to. Thanks for the info.

Sinnerman, like the Paralez's Maelstrom chase, are in the same context. I understand!

Lately, because a lot of my interests revolve around NLP and Auto-Generated Narratives (GPT-3), I've been attracted to stuff that CP77 does well (but not perfectly). That being, conversational AI and "Decisions Really Matter" RPGs. Trying to project the future of gaming and trying to see how it fits in the notion of the "connected world" that actually is more divisive when it comes to the "opposite" of "social distancing" LOL. Folks that have participated in the internet long enough, especially in the pre-social media age, but particularly the Forum and Instant messenger age are more aware of the "unnecessary body phenomena" (pun unintended. More like "unnecessary body noumena") of like minds and collaborative minds.

Basically, the ability to navigate thoughts and patterns of thought creation. Individuals that area able to turn on and of their imaginations to see through and into digital facades masked by avatars and aliases. Some have it, some don't. Likewise, the way that "video" gamers interact with the world reminds me of that of Forums and IMs of yesteryear. Special Knowledge connecting with special knowledge (and the mechanics of how to navigate the rules/dimensions of it). A different version of the Gamer Generation
Meanwhile in CP 2077.

Gillian Jordan on N54: "The Swedish academy award for literature has announced its latest recipient Virginia Virginia Granchester citing her most recent book In the Shade of an Apple Tree as a treasure of this generation."

Some would argue that video games should only be educational and positive.
Yeah I can see that can happen and that's illustrating the problem. Should all novels, all movies, tv shows? We have certain standards in how we perceive products but with video games things get very vague. The basic question being, if video games (story driven) are equal form of expression compared to everything else, why works in video game space cannot be evaluated but some ever moving video game standards?


Hmm maybe generalized or deformed. Generalizing would lead to automated thinking?
Yeah, I get that.
Do elaborate!
I don't think I can. Sure I could look up couple of movies as examples but that's just that and that happens, to demonstrate trend is beyond of scope I can do and I'm willing to do in context of topic. However we can ponder how much praise Disney superhero spectacles get and those products has right to exist, but what have you learned about the world and the human condition from them? What cultural value they have besides of portraying that people as global audience on this era were willing to suck up everything without batting an eye to the fact that supposed values and norms and that presented in these products reflect are to get them approved for viewing from CCP on that market, that is huge.

There is certain irony. Production costs, especially if marketing is included are so high that tip toeing around things makes sense. So they make lots of money that then doesn't go to small budget movies, but other mega budget spin-off or something. Big money, big risks and we end in situation where party delivering something original is like game studio from Poland, even though in gaming space they took huge risk with CP 2077.
 
Last edited:
I've both talked about, displayed, and demonstrated CP77 with people that are like 50-60 years old just to gauge their thoughts about the game. I've never had the expected response. Some have told me that they'd probably just walk around and look at everything, others had a glossy glaze in their eyes as if they had no comprehension of what they were looking at, even when I would do something outrageous, like hit a Valentino in the back of the head, randomly, with a dildo baton. Others would be impressed by the stories I'd tell about my in-game experience, but even with seeing and appreciating how realistic it looks, prefer to watch movies of the same caliber (like the Original Robocop, Terminator, or Predator), but will only engage with some "bubble pop" game on their tablet or smartphone.

It causes me to think that the gamer generation is unique in perspective and experience. I've even shown my mom videos of robots like Sophia and Ameca to see if she can see what I see in them. . . Ultimately she, like many others, can't even fathom the trajectory of technology and the future that's replaced action figures and dolls with models and robotics.
And they could show you at least 10x more of what you would not be interested in, from their own life experiences. I say your quote the "gamer generation is unique in perspective and experience" is a uniquely myopic perspective and experience.

Being a 60 year old 'gamer'; a person that made some popular maps for games (The Well, The Rock); but also a gamer who lived a very full life outside of gaming. In fact, 'gaming' isn't even on the list of things I am proud of doing/accomplishing/learning.

Learning guitar, traveling, reading a crap-ton of books both fiction and historical. Along with being very good at the full-time job I've had all these years. And, of course, family. Perspective.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom