Perspective Thread: Third Person vs First Person debate goes HERE.

[Chronoid]

Oh, don't worry. I will be moving on. As will many others I'm sure. Looks like CDPR let their success get to their heads. I have made it a personal mission not to support developers who are under the very ill-guided notion that the customer is beholden to the business and not the other way around.

 

[Sardukhar]

Well, this is one of the (many) ways that game developers are not the same as other businesses.

A business does what it has to to make money. More money, the better. We (businesses like mine) do, within reason, whatever it takes to make our customers happy.

But a (good) game developer is also a...confederation? Confabulation? Organization of artists and creators.

And creators' objectives is to tell the best story and make the best, most honest art they can.

Even if maybe it costs potential money or even loses some customers.

As a consumer of such art, I'm not unhappy generally. I don't always like the choices that good, creative studios make, but I appreciate their integrity and their goals.

And sometimes, like a long time ago, I run across a little gem about, say, a mutant who hunts monsters in a made-up land and faces some very real-world decisions in that fantasy setting. Although I wasn't a great fan -at all- of the supposed timed sweep combat system or the clumsy camera. But Witcher 1 was great. Just great.

If you want great stuff, you have to let artists take risks - even risks you might have little interest in.

 

[diegodelmonico]

A business does what it has to to make money. More money, the better. We do, within reason, whatever it takes to make our customers happy.

But a (good) game developer is also a...confederation? Confabulation? Organization of artists and creators.

And creators' objectives is to tell the best story or make the best, most honest art they can.

Even if maybe it costs potential money or even loses some customers.

As a consumer of such art, I'm not unhappy generally. I don't always like the choices that good, creative studios make, but I appreciate their integrity and their goals.

And sometimes, like a long time ago, I run across a little gem about, say, a mutant who hunts monsters in a made-up land and faces some very real-world decisions in that fantasy setting. Although I wasn't a great fan -at all- of the supposed timed sweep combat system or the clumsy camera. But Witcher 1 was great. Just great.

If you want great stuff, you have to let artists take risks - even risks you might have little interest in.

Respectfully, you are romanticizing failure and egocentric artistic behavior.

 

[Sardukhar]

Respectfully, you are romanticizing failure and egocentric artistic behavior.

No, I'm not. Like I said, I'm in business, I have a good idea what it takes to stay afloat. CDPR has successfully married business and creatives. They are literally experts.

Artists must be egocentric to a point - that's their job. In a big org like CDPR, egocentric is nearly impossible, too many influences. So it's not that, at least not to a fail point.

Having a vision is more important than appeasing your customer base. It was that vision that earned you that base. It would be foolish to change that because a minority of people are unhappy with your current choice.

And it is a minority.

Game isn't out yet - when it comes out it will sell millions. The demo and trailers are super popular, feedback is super popular. Stock is just climbing upwards - it hit an all-time high after the FPP announcement came out.

So failure is simply silly

No, this is about ego, but it's not CDPR ego.

Sometimes things just don't go the way people want. You either bend and accept or remain stubborn and miss out on the fun.

Up to you in the end.

 

[YenRug]

So as Rawls posted already, and I'm posting again, ( and probably will again) this discussion is purely circular now.

Lilayah, Community Manager : "Ok, so to end all current and future FPP/TPP discussions. We won't change from FPP to TPP or add option to switch freely between those two. We chose FPP for narrative reasons and we will STICK with it. We have in mind those that suffer from motions sickness etc but this won't make us change decision. Sorry for disappointment it may have caused. "

Not sure how long or if we will leave this open. Like it or not, an artist(s) have a vision and they stick to that vision.
And in the end, it's their game.

Thank god they've stopped with the "increases immersion" angle, hopefully they've at least realised that it's something subjective and can't be stated objectively; the immersiveness of a viewpoint is personal, you can state which is best for you, you cannot state which is best for everyone.

As to the "shareholders" argument, just no. First, the by-far largest voting block is CDPR heads - the people that made this decision. Second, shareholders love CDPR decisions - stock just keeps going up.

There is no chance of some "outside rescue" by some mythical powerful outside force.

A shareholder intervention would only have occurred if there had been a rejection by an overwhelming majority, as it is, polling suggests that it's slightly over half don't like it; however, those that do like it are being extremely positively vocal about it, which helps with the media representation and thus a boon to share prices.

However, sales figures are important, too. If there is any significant underperformance of predicted sales, that share price will drop just as quickly as it's rising right now.

You can pretend otherwise, but that's the way things are. Cyberpunk 2077 is primarily a First Person Perspective game.

If you really can't accept that, you might want to move on rather than keep pretending it's going to change.

Not pretending it's going to change, we are, however, perfectly entitled in voicing our preferences and our hopes that someone might actually understand that giving people options is better than restrictions.

 

[diegodelmonico]

I am laughing at loud. But I am truly respecting Sardukar.

 

[simpsonfan409]

hey, some feedback about the gameplay video.
i personally love FPP RPG's, but what takes me out of the immersion are TPP cutscenes, like when they stepped into the elevator or when V woke up in her apartment.

also on a side note, i'm glad you're going with FPP in this game, TPP was one of the reasons the witcher didn't really hook me, but i understand that you had to go in that direction due to geralds fight style.

 

[Tirant_Anglini]

First, CDPR is the BEST game company nowadays in terms of listening their fans. That said, please take my suggestion however you want, i just would really appreciate if you guys read this, so, i played the witcher, was amazed by it no question, a TPP, but i also play a lot of FPP games like battlefield and recently, the both metro games. I really enjoy both types of games, however i must say i find the ideia of a TPP rpg looks very comfortable (i confess i like to see my build progress, like wearing the bear armor, cat, griffin, and their upgraded forms, etc in the witcher) i'm a little afraid that i could appreciate even more cyberpunk by seeing the upgrades that i put in my character, my costumes, guns, etc. Since you guys said that you will maintain the FPP for story purposes, could you adapt a TPP in some scenarios that are not related to the story? like when i'm exploring the city, or any other moment that is not story-telling vital? idk, some icon that says "TPP available or FPP locked", i think that could work really well. You guys are AMAZING, whatever you decide i'll be happy, but please, take this comment in consideration, thanks a lot!!!

 

[doktor_fleck]

It would probably better to close this thread and made it sticky with last post explaining why it was closed. Basically last few pages are not about why players prefer one mode or another but it's just CD Project bashing. There is no point to continue this further because for some people it's just a place to vent their frustration.

 

[wall2211]

I just wanted to point out that CDPR already confirmed that there will be no future option for third person, but speculation can keep going I guess. I see no reason though.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/stevivor.com/news/cyberpunk-2077-wont-get-third-person-option/amp/

Post automatically merged: Aug 30, 2018

It would probably better to close this thread and made it sticky with last post explaining why it was closed. Basically last few pages are not about why players prefer one mode or another but it's just CD Project bashing. There is no point to continue this further because for some people it's just a place to vent their frustration.

I don’t agree. All feedback is feedback, negative or positive.

 

[L4dftw]

If the developers have made the decision to stick to FPP, then why keep debating it? It's a done deal, and it's extremely unlikely that anything is going to change their minds. I agree that this is becoming circular. The decision has been made, and I would think it's time for people to accept it and move on.

 

[doktor_fleck]

I don’t agree. All feedback is feedback, negative or positive.

It's not feedback anymore. Now it's "you are the worst because you don't want to make the game for me"

 

[Heart Of Dawn]

Feedback is fine, if people are discussing the actual pros and cons of the alternate view points. However, when they start talking about how 2077 is going to lose sales or that CDPR is a bad company for 'not making the game the way I want', then that's not constructive and doesn't help.

After 27 pages of discussion, I think that pretty much everything that needs to be said has been said.

CDPR has made the call, as is their right to do so. It's not for us to unilaterally decide for them. Some people won't like that, but it is what it is. CDPR is not beholden to any of us, nor us to them. Let those that enjoy the game enjoy it, and let those that don't find something else that they do.

 

[Lowly_butcher]

Well if I may, is it possible for you guys to do a Skyrim or Fallout-esqe perspective where we can change perspective from first to third? Because I feel like first person limits my vision in terms of spotting enemies in the environment. Especially ones behind me.

 

[wall2211]

If the developers have made the decision to stick to FPP, then why keep debating it? It's a done deal, and it's extremely unlikely that anything is going to change their minds. I agree that this is becoming circular. The decision has been made, and I would think it's time for people to accept it and move on.

I agree. But closing this thread won’t mean this topic won’t persist. Fans are gonna find some way and somehow to get their points across everywhere they can lol.

 

[L4dftw]

I agree. But closing this thread won’t mean this topic won’t persist. Fans are gonna find some way and somehow to get their points across everywhere they can lol.

Unfortunately, you're right. But when their points start to turn into stuff like "well I'm not gonna buy the game, screw you CDPR you've ruined this game for me!!!", it's not constructive feedback. And this thread has seemingly started to show some of that, which, imo, sucks.

 

[Lowly_butcher]

My main problem is not the FPP per se i do play FPP games as well but the visual is objectively subpar for an rpg that should feature customization and again i am not talking about having a FPP but having a FPP only forced view restrain customization that is indeed one of the core keys in cyberpunk since you have to look cool and have an attitude because both of this things matters a lot.

Also there is FPP and FPP sadly the FPP used in the majority of games is prospectively wrong and reduce you to be a walking person with a cam stuck in your chest and a rifle popping out from your head. That for me kills the immersion and dosn't help if you are stuck in that visual all the time.

I already discussed this in the past years and even then i never wanted to scrap the FPP but i wanted a toggle that allowed me to switch when is more confortable one view or another.

Devs mentioned the example of witcher 3 but again that is not an excuse to just get rid of TPP when you could do FPP/TPP toggleable in the first place also talking about immersion is completely subjective i stated in the past also this.

I was immersed by titles with a different kind of visual mostly by story situation or envirovment rarely i get immersed in first person game because to me the game feel costructed the visual is prospectively wrong most of the time and scream fake all over my ears...

I have Arma3 that despite being FPP/TPP i mostly play it in FPP because the cam on Arma3 is on the character head and not in the chest and because mostly is not a RPG and is not a game that features a lot of costumization where you create a character.

This kind of view fails to immerse me:
View attachment 10974452

And this is pretty much how i feel the entire time in the majority of first person games.

Most of the things they mentioned could be fixed if they addedd a toggle between the first and the third person there is no perk in to make what is supposed to be an rpg first person only because you have.

-Limited Awareness (in the real life you can walk backward and if there is something benhind you rarely end to slam on it because you have other senses to rely on))

-Subpar Melee combat.

-Crippled movement

-Pointless Customization: Because is pointless customize your character if you end to be stuck with the hand in front of the face all the time.

-Gameplay reduced to aim and click with heavy focus in twich combat.

I never ever wanted the game to be only TPP but i dislike being forced to FPP just because someone thinks for me is more immersive FPP.

And yes some RPG are FPP but:

Bloodlines were: FPP/TPP (many seems to forget this)

Deus ex the first is a game with a set protagonist you have no costumization the new ones are shooters with roleplay elements.

Kingdom Come Deliverance: The game would had immensely benefit if they implemented a TPP they did an amazing job in the first person but feels again costructed and of course lack of customization.

Even rpg that are designed with the first person in mind and are supposed to have customization (TES/ newer fallouts) have a toggle between first and third person.

Almost all the point they told they take this decision on were pretty solvable with a toggle:

The map of the game develop in verticality solution: Add a toggle between third and first person.

Some ambient are way too small to navigate in solution: Add a toggle between third and first person.

Immersive huds based on the implant you have: You don't have to scrap anything you can still do that even adding a TPP when the player will decide to go in first person the hud will adapt to the change.


New directive system scene narration: If the price to have this is to cripple the game using FPP only thanks not interested considering most of the dialogs for what i know are in first person as well.

You can't implement double jump and running on walls in third person:

-Prince of persia?
-Enter the matrix?
-Assassin Creeds
-Pretty much every platform game has double jump?

This games have not FPP and some of them features wall walking and double jump.

In the end i don't see any reason why the game should not have a choice between first and third person and if a toggle in not possible i don't see the reason to cripple an rpg with a forced visual that make customization pointless in a game where you are supposed to create your character.

Exactly. That's pretty much what I thought. FPP just limits my awareness of the environment. Making it more like a twich and shoot thing. I want to be able to look behind my back, not saying I want TPP exclusively, but did Witcher 3 harm from being a TPP game? Kingdom Come Deliverance is set in mediaeval times too and is an RPG as well but didn't even come close to Witcher 3 in terms of immersion, atleast for me. I couldn't play that game for more than half an hour. While I could forever play Witcher 3. And if Witcher 3 isn't immersive, I don't know what is.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

also on a side note, i'm glad you're going with FPP in this game, TPP was one of the reasons the witcher didn't really hook me, but i understand that you had to go in that direction due to geralds fight style.

You say that as if close combat isn't a point anymore.
It's an RPG, so normally no one is gonna force you to shoot anything, you might just end up only fight using melee, and a you said FPP restrictions are heavy when you fight that way, and it's even worst when you have to face multiple opponents.

At least I hope the game will avoid some recurrents FPP flaws:
-Having the gun in my field of view when I'm not aiming (and your hands in general when you are not aiming).
-Having the view not being at my eyes level.
-Low FOV and the low environnement awareness which goes with it.
-No dodge movement.
-No possibilty to locks your eyes on something.
-Etc...

 

[Nikola_Nesic]

In one Q&A someone ask about melee combat CDPR say they have great melee combat, in FPP that is simply not possible, if left and right slash with melee weapon like they show in demo is that great combat system and some takedown here and there, then that is same like Skyrim nothing new nothing great or big.

 

[Draconifors]

All right, this thread has run its course. CDPR have made their decision to make the game FPP, and they will not be changing their mind.
Therefore, discussing the subject further is rather pointless.

This thread will now be closed. Thank you for the civil discussion that has taken place here.

Any new FPP/TPP debate threads that may pop up will be closed or deleted. Also, trying to sneak the debate into other threads will end in deleted posts.