Perspective Thread: Third Person vs First Person debate goes HERE.

[Sardukhar]

Update: CDPR has made it very clear that things are NOT GOING TO CHANGE.

Lilayah, 8/29/18 :"Ok, so to end all current and future FPP/TPP discussions. We won't change from FPP to TPP or add option to switch freely between those two. We chose FPP for narrative reasons and we will STICK with it. We have in mind those that suffer from motions sickness etc but this won't make us change decision. Sorry for disappointment it may have caused. "

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[Suhiira]

It seems CDPRs is going to some lengths to deal with a motion sickness issue some people have with first person as best they can. So given that there's no third person option I think that's the best we can hope for.

I can certainly see CDPR point when it comes to immersion. They're apparently making many portions of the games UI part of V's cyberware (nice idea). And tho I havn't personally seen it, reports from the press only demo at E3 are that the fist person dialog system CDPR has come up with works pretty well.

 

[Sardukhar]

I'm running around in Fallout 4 in TPP a lot right now, doing the DLCs while heavily modded as Snake Plissken and all his gear.

So it's nice to see myself, no argument. I don't feel much more "Snake", though, than in first person, probably because a character is so much more than just their appearance.

Where I really feel like Snake is during the combat (because deadly and cool) and, mostly, during dialogue. Both in seeing my character talk and in what I say.

It would be nice to see myself during dialogue more than daily running around is what I'm saying.

 

[Snowflakez]

The fact that we won't see ourselves during dialogue is what really threw me for a loop. I was confused but accepting of not having TPP for exploration - I understood CDPR's reasoning.

I also understand their reasoning regarding no FPP in dialogue (outside of cutscenes, which are NOT the same as dialogue, in case anyone is thinking that's what CDPR means), but it's something I'm having a harder time swallowing. On one hand, this whole immersive conversation system sounds awesome - look at an object in your environment to affect dialogue and the NPC's temperament. Yes, please.

On the other hand... How frequent will cutscenes be, exactly? I'm happy that we'll see ourselves in the inventory (and they aren't going for just a plain menu like in Deus Ex), but that doesn't seem like enough to merit all this character customization.

So... rambling aside... I'm torn. I get CDPR's reasoning, but I don't 100% like it, either.

 

[Rawls]

On the other hand... How frequent will cutscenes be, exactly?

All we really heard is that there were two cutscenes in the 50 minute demo. So based on current data ... 1 cut-scene every 25 minutes. Much larger sample size needed for better estimate.

 

[Madison_Jones]

For our sins, the Moderation Team, ( there is no I in team, but there is backward meat in team, so make of that what you will) has decided to re-open this contentious topic.

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Post automatically merged: Aug 8, 2018

The technology exists I think to allow players to choose 3rd person or 1st person. I wish you would consider this. 3rd person is very important to many gamers. it's like being in a movie where as 1st person feels kind of cheap seeing part of your hand or arm holding a weapon. It's feel unreal. Please consider. Immersion feels better with 3rd person although I understand what you are talking about with 1st person.

 

[Draconifors]

Well, I was hoping for first person prior to E3, so I personally am happy with the decision.
I managed to track down my post from May, and leaving out the bits that no longer apply ("I hope that"), I'll just quote myself:

I find it difficult to really roleplay and immerse myself when in third person; if I see my character all the time, it's hard to think "What would I do?" instead of "What would my character do?".
Also, anything that requires accuracy (such as aiming) is, for me, a lot easier in first person.

That being said, I am glad that driving can be done in either FPP or TPP, as it's the one area I usually prefer in TPP. Although I've never played an RPG with driveable cars. :unsure:

After a long period of only playing TPP games such as Witcher 3, I returned to Skyrim some weeks ago, and I have to say FPP took a bit of time to get used to again. (Yes, I know I don't have to play in FPP, but like I quoted above, it does feel more immersive to me).

Yes, the ability to see V at any time would be nice, I won't disagree there. But hey, at least we have confirmed inventory, cutscenes, mirrors and even planned photomode to see V in.

 

[Sardukhar]

Immersion feels better with 3rd person although I understand what you are talking about with 1st person.

I think -absorption- is higher in TPP, or can be, than in FPP.

For example, I find Planescape Torment MUCH more absorbing and interesting than Call of Duty, but of course I am hardly immersed in Sigil - I can't look at the walls or go eyeball to eyeball with a berk.

So how a game absorbs your attention will vary and certainly TPP is just as good as any other perspective - anyone who has played an intense RTS game of Starcraft can vouch for this.

But in terms of immersing you in a world you cannot see up close, cannot wander around in and stare up at the buildings? No.

Only FPP and VR can really offer this. The rest of the time it is too obvious you are driving a character around while you are at home.

 

[Trazon]

On one hand, this whole immersive conversation system sounds awesome - look at an object in your environment to affect dialogue and the NPC's temperament. Yes, please.

That is what has most of my Attention, the way they wan't to immerse you as V, and Not immerse your "character" into the world, plus the whole being able to look up and down, I love The WItcher 3, but there was time I wanted to really look down the edge of a cliff or jump, and could not do so without finagling Geralt around and still not have the best view.

 

[Snowflakez]

Yes, the ability to see V at any time would be nice, I won't disagree there. But hey, at least we have confirmed inventory, cutscenes, mirrors and even planned photomode to see V in.

The Photo Mode is probably where the best hope for a third person view lies. Modders have used Ansel/other photo modes to make third person a thing in other games in the past. Though I wouldn't use such a mod personally, unless it was quite good.

 

[Suhiira]

The technology exists I think to allow players to choose 3rd person or 1st person.

Actually having both isn't as easy as many people think.
You actually need two entire sets of animations, one for each perspective ... unless you really think players will be happy with animations that look off or bad in one perspective or the other?

 

[Sardukhar]

Actually having both isn't as easy as many people think.
You actually need two entire sets of animations, one for each perspective ... unless you really think players will be happy with animations that look off or bad in one perspective or the other?

Such an excellent point.

Awkward animations are really a mood-killer. You look like a herky-jerky puppet running around in an otherwise beautiful game setting. Quite jarring.

 

[Snowflakez]

Such an excellent point.

Awkward animations are really a mood-killer. You look like a herky-jerky puppet running around in an otherwise beautiful game setting. Quite jarring.

Yeah... That's another reason I've sort of resigned myself to FPP only. I don't mind the jank in Bethesda games (and, admittedly, part of it is due to resource allocation and the age of the titles), but it'd feel pretty out of place in a game from CDPR.

 

[kxmusashi]

I actually play Fallout and Skyrim using both, when I am just running around the world I like to be in third, but once combat starts I hop into first. Though in power armor I stick in first since the GUI changes to the Power Armor HUD changes and it just looks odd in third person. In Neir: Automata I loved that they had GUI elements changed but since it is all third person it did seem a bit strange and was something I just accepted, I don't want to see a first person Automata.

I never minded the first person view and it sounds like they are planning on doing a few really cool things with it. That said I also do like to see my character in reflections, for smaller budget games a will quietly scold the design for foggy mirrors and super translucent widows, so as long as I get that and being able to see the character in a photo mode and on the menu I will be happy.

 

[jorjett25]

I have to admit, I've ALWAYS liked third-person better than first person. In Bethesda games I would always switch between the two, while still preferring third-person. Even during combat I loved seeing my character firing spells or shooting a new laser gun i found.

But I've now gotten use to the idea of playing CP2077 in first person. It makes sense, with all the cool things they want to do with the HUD. I'm now 100% on board. But still, not being able to see my character except for the inventory and mirrors, that's still super disappointing.

 

[Loostreaks]

From dialogue perspective, it was a right call. "Cyberpunk dialogue" has to feel intense, you want everything directly to your face and first person is much better at that. You are in the scene, instead of being a director switching back and forth camera from one point to the next. Also it absolutely wouldn't work in third person, from how they described this new system.

Imagine a scene with someone holding a gun to your head, you slowly rotate the camera( your head) towards it, directly see his finger on a trigger, he yells: I said, don't MOVE!!...yeah, Third person is nothing in comparison. Plus they could add some visual/audio effects to make it even more intense, depending on your COOL: vision blur, camera shaking, heart pounding, etc.

Ironically, I don't really care about TP when driving, it is more intense when you really have to keep your eye on the road, and requires more skill.

I think 95% of blowback can be avoided if they added Third Person as optional exploration mode, which I'm 100% sure animations are already there ( unless world has no mirrors for some reason)...people simply connect with their character better when you see him/her with all the clothing, gizmos, rotating camera around it to, etc.

With melee it doesn't work so well when you face far too many enemies from different directions, and when it's more complex..but in this game, that won't be the case anyway.

 

[Maelcom404]

Both has their pro and con, first person takes you right into the action, but third is often more adapted to melee fightings (better sense of space) IMO

 

[Mebrilia]

My main problem is not the FPP per se i do play FPP games as well but the visual is objectively subpar for an rpg that should feature customization and again i am not talking about having a FPP but having a FPP only forced view restrain customization that is indeed one of the core keys in cyberpunk since you have to look cool and have an attitude because both of this things matters a lot.

Also there is FPP and FPP sadly the FPP used in the majority of games is prospectively wrong and reduce you to be a walking person with a cam stuck in your chest and a rifle popping out from your head. That for me kills the immersion and dosn't help if you are stuck in that visual all the time.

I already discussed this in the past years and even then i never wanted to scrap the FPP but i wanted a toggle that allowed me to switch when is more confortable one view or another.

Devs mentioned the example of witcher 3 but again that is not an excuse to just get rid of TPP when you could do FPP/TPP toggleable in the first place also talking about immersion is completely subjective i stated in the past also this.

I was immersed by titles with a different kind of visual mostly by story situation or envirovment rarely i get immersed in first person game because to me the game feel costructed the visual is prospectively wrong most of the time and scream fake all over my ears...

I have Arma3 that despite being FPP/TPP i mostly play it in FPP because the cam on Arma3 is on the character head and not in the chest and because mostly is not a RPG and is not a game that features a lot of costumization where you create a character.

This kind of view fails to immerse me:

And this is pretty much how i feel the entire time in the majority of first person games.

Most of the things they mentioned could be fixed if they addedd a toggle between the first and the third person there is no perk in to make what is supposed to be an rpg first person only because you have.

-Limited Awareness (in the real life you can walk backward and if there is something benhind you rarely end to slam on it because you have other senses to rely on))

-Subpar Melee combat.

-Crippled movement

-Pointless Customization: Because is pointless customize your character if you end to be stuck with the hand in front of the face all the time.

-Gameplay reduced to aim and click with heavy focus in twich combat.

I never ever wanted the game to be only TPP but i dislike being forced to FPP just because someone thinks for me is more immersive FPP.

And yes some RPG are FPP but:

Bloodlines were: FPP/TPP (many seems to forget this)

Deus ex the first is a game with a set protagonist you have no costumization the new ones are shooters with roleplay elements.

Kingdom Come Deliverance: The game would had immensely benefit if they implemented a TPP they did an amazing job in the first person but feels again costructed and of course lack of customization.

Even rpg that are designed with the first person in mind and are supposed to have customization (TES/ newer fallouts) have a toggle between first and third person.

Almost all the point they told they take this decision on were pretty solvable with a toggle:

The map of the game develop in verticality solution: Add a toggle between third and first person.

Some ambient are way too small to navigate in solution: Add a toggle between third and first person.

Immersive huds based on the implant you have: You don't have to scrap anything you can still do that even adding a TPP when the player will decide to go in first person the hud will adapt to the change.


New directive system scene narration: If the price to have this is to cripple the game using FPP only thanks not interested considering most of the dialogs for what i know are in first person as well.

You can't implement double jump and running on walls in third person:

-Prince of persia?
-Enter the matrix?
-Assassin Creeds
-Pretty much every platform game has double jump?

This games have not FPP and some of them features wall walking and double jump.

In the end i don't see any reason why the game should not have a choice between first and third person and if a toggle in not possible i don't see the reason to cripple an rpg with a forced visual that make customization pointless in a game where you are supposed to create your character.

 

[Snowflakez]

In the end i don't see any reason why the game should not have a choice between first and third person and if a toggle in not possible i don't see the reason to cripple an rpg with a forced visual that make customization pointless in a game where you are supposed to create your character.

Seems more like a case of resource allocation to me. They think FPP will work better for the game they are making, hence they are not spending time or money on a TPP option. Which means that time and money is instead being spent on other stuff.

 

[Mebrilia]

Seems more like a case of resource allocation to me. They think FPP will work better for the game they are making, hence they are not spending time or money on a TPP option. Which means that time and money is instead being spent on other stuff.

I strongly disagree one of the key 4 point of cyberpunk is style over substance and is not only tied to the way your character act but also how is looking cool doing that.. Is a world where what you dress can give you a totally different impression.

This is a game based on a Pen and paper and since it should have so much customization the choice of a FFP only is subpar in the end you will be reduced to stare to your hands and this make customization pointless considering they also stated that dialogues are in first person as well.

To me this hunt of immersiveness went a bit too far.. Some people get immersed in first person game but also many people don't deciding what is more immersive for someone is never productive or good.

I agree the need of a FPP due to the verticality of the game... but a FPP only? No that is a bit too much of a costraint in a game where you are supposed to create your character and customize it.

And is also the reason why almost all FPP rpg's have a set protagonist or characters you create are just icons (wizardry) and most of the time is not even customizable or if it is is never extensive but pretty basic.