Perspective Thread: Third Person vs First Person debate goes HERE.

[Trazon]

I strongly disagree those games you posted while being fantastic games had a very construct fpp this mean cam is not in the head but is exclusively at the chest height Dishonored in fact to me. felt really gamey and not natural at all..

To make you an example a game that aimed to have an almost realistic first person view was mirror's edge and also still there when the character had a weapon in hand like a pistol got it prospectively wrong like if the arm with the pistol where popping out from the side of the character head.. I am going to use a vignette to explain it.

View attachment 10974461

Also i don't think for this Cyberpunk game that is based on the pen and paper feels right to be FPP only... Is a game were you will have ton of customization because looking cool is part of the setting now you can agree with me that for looking cool the first person is the worst choice one can make since you will stare at your hands all the time.


My problem with most of the fpp games around is that they make a first person prospectively wrong that ends to be dealbreaker for me.

And i still think FPP is not an optimal choice at all in a rpg were you are supposed to create your character because it cripples customization and make it pointless... I really doubt you will be able to interact with the world so much because FPP gives also this problem.

Again scale of the city and verticality are not valid exactly how is more immersive the game is forced fpp only (subjective) as argument either if you implement both FPP TPP and it looks great and better because i could be able to see my character and how looks cool how while walking on the strees (Very Cyberpunk feel) even in TPP


Even GTAV has a FPP now and despite many dislike what i am going to say the FPP in GTAV is way better prospectively talking than every modern shooter around.

While I agree On the part where the Camera angels for shooting is Unrealistic in those games for the Most part, I would also mention out, that The Realistic Value for shooting in a realistic style in Example 1, in the picture, is that it would not be easy or fun to play to most player's who don't care for that part of the immersion, which sad to say is the Majority of player's of modern video games.

On to the Pen and Paper, and the Style over Substance, even with FPP, the whole Idea in my head, is making your "V" who is In a sense, You yourself and not a Stylized Character like say Doomguy/Jensen/Corvo/etc, to get in to that mindset, Character Customization is a good path to take. During Cutscenes we will see them as Ourselves.

With it being a city, I expect (even without evidence) that there will be many reflective surfaces) just like we see our own selves in real life, I feel that is where they are going, do we groom ourselves everyday and wear clothes that suit our taste and in our own Head (that is important), because we will see ourselves every moment we turn the camera? Or so because we "Know" that in our Head we like how we look. That is what I think they are going for. We Are V.

If we was able to take control of our characters in a pen in paper book, would be be flying eyes? or In our characters heads?

No offense to the creator of that work that you posted of the video, even if their Game did get Mostly Negative reviews, the Camera in that video bugged me severely on how it dragged along walls.
Now if you want we can talk more about how Games should use holding of guns and swords in games from a FPP more Readily.
My argument on that will start with, we do not control the hands in real time in games. Now when Virtual Reality takes Hold fully, I expect we will see more of the Correct Realistic way. But for now it is not game sound to do so, and will always feel gamey it a extent because when you boil it down it is a game, and we want to have fun and not struggle due to mechanics. (sorry for the super Long Post)

 

[Mebrilia]

While I agree On the part where the Camera angels for shooting is Unrealistic in those games for the Most part, I would also mention out, that The Realistic Value for shooting in a realistic style in Example 1, in the picture, is that it would not be easy or fun to play to most player's who don't care for that part of the immersion, which sad to say is the Majority of player's of modern video games.

On to the Pen and Paper, and the Style over Substance, even with FPP, the whole Idea in my head, is making your "V" who is In a sense, You yourself and not a Stylized Character like say Doomguy/Jensen/Corvo/etc, to get in to that mindset, Character Customization is a good path to take. During Cutscenes we will see them as Ourselves.

With it being a city, I expect (even without evidence) that there will be many reflective surfaces) just like we see our own selves in real life, I feel that is where they are going, do we groom ourselves everyday and wear clothes that suit our taste and in our own Head (that is important), because we will see ourselves every moment we turn the camera? Or so because we "Know" that in our Head we like how we look. That is what I think they are going for. We Are V.

If we was able to take control of our characters in a pen in paper book, would be be flying eyes? or In our characters heads?

No offense to the creator of that work that you posted of the video, even if their Game did get Mostly Negative reviews, the Camera in that video bugged me severely on how it dragged along walls.
Now if you want we can talk more about how Games should use holding of guns and swords in games from a FPP more Readily.
My argument on that will start with, we do not control the hands in real time in games. Now when Virtual Reality takes Hold fully, I expect we will see more of the Correct Realistic way. But for now it is not game sound to do so, and will always feel gamey it a extent because when you boil it down it is a game, and we want to have fun and not struggle due to mechanics. (sorry for the super Long Post)

That is not important the game in that is not relevant that video comes from a pre alpha and shows that a cyberpunk city built with verticality in mind can still work and even if it don't you can always allow player to select the view they prefear.

There is not actually a good reason for the game to use a FPP only it feel crippled by it in fact.

Do you know that every pen and paper games comes with a blank page or vignette to allow player to draw their character? The example you make dosen't stand simply because pen and paper you have only pen and paper but in a computer RPG you have the tools to make that characters alive.

"With it being a city, I expect (even without evidence) that there will be many reflective surfaces) just like we see our own selves in real life, I feel that is where they are going, do we groom ourselves everyday and wear clothes that suit our taste and in our own Head (that is important), because we will see ourselves every moment we turn the camera? Or so because we "Know" that in our Head we like how we look. That is what I think they are going for. We Are V."

That dosn't change the fact that reflective surface works for both FPP and TPP the difference is forcing FPP you are cutting out an important part that the game should feature customization.

Again is not a mistery why almost all FPP rpg have no customization at all or little customization and is because the Prospective chosen make customization pointless and is indeed a huge issue in cyberpunk.

And see my character for me in a game based on the pen and paper of the cyberpunk where they tell you as the first of the four cardinal point that looks matter yes is important to me because for me is a big part of the spirit of the pen and paper.

And i still think forcing only FPP in game that is supposed to be an RPG where you have toon of customization and where you are supposed to create your character from the ground up with an in depth character creator is a big fat mistake.

Now one can say well you will have mirror in the game i could smile and answer: You have FPP in real life what is the issue?

I am not demonizing FPP i play FPP games too but i think Cyberpunk 2077 deserves better than a forced first person prospective optimal would be make the game TPP/FPP toggleable.

I repeat again: Wanting to see how cool is my character while walking in night city considering the pen and paper this game is based on and how looking cool is important to it should be in perfectly spirit with the pen and paper and should be reasonable.

And this forced prospective will break that spirit for me.

"On to the Pen and Paper, and the Style over Substance, even with FPP, the whole Idea in my head, is making your "V" who is In a sense, You yourself and not a Stylized Character like say Doomguy/Jensen/Corvo/etc, to get in to that mindset, Character Customization is a good path to take. During Cutscenes we will see them as Ourselves."

And this is another issue.. See when i and many players play the pen and paper game they don't create theirself.. they create their character when they say "We chosen to make the game FPP to deliver a more personal experience" that is missing the whole point of a game based on a pen and paper because is not about you the player is about the character you create on the world.

Cyberpunk 2077 is based on a pen and paper game the character should be the real star here not the player.

Many games that were based on pen and paper did this right:
Baldur's gate saga,Icewind dale saga,Planescape torment, Neverwinter nights, Neverwinter nights 2

Because they were about the character and not the player.

And those are still classics for a reason

Also character is visible during the cutscenes!
What percentage of cutscenes are in a open world game? We know that dialogues are in first person so.. And according with who saw the closed demo the eye implant cutscene and you carrying the woman outside are in first person as well ((and this is not leaked material those thing i say were based on questions i made to some people that were at the e3 closed presentation)) and honestly this is not reassuring at all but is pretty much like to say: Hey you would have chance to see how is witcher 3 in first person in heart of stone there is a first person cutscene.

I don't know how to feel about this declaration we are going to see our character only in a small fraction of the game during cutscene? I should be satisfate by that?

Ok we will see npc react depending on what we are aiming the screen at during the conversation.

And this should justify the forced FPP visual or the lack of a toggle between FPP/TPP? the underperforming of the customization because of it? to me there is too much to lose and too little to gain

And in FPP games i died so many times because i had a rock benhind and i lacked the sense of awareness one has in rl again camera getting stuck is one of the other things that can be solved by implementing a toggle to make everyone happy.

There is not a single feature that justify the forcing of a FPP visual only in a game like this.

 

[Trazon]

I am not demonizing FPP i play FPP games too but i think Cyberpunk 2077 deserves better than a forced first person prospective optimal would be make the game TPP/FPP toggleable.

I repeat again: Wanting to see how cool is my character while walking in night city considering the pen and paper this game is based on and how looking cool is important to it should be in perfectly spirit with the pen and paper and should be reasonable.

And this forced prospective will break that spirit for me.

"On to the Pen and Paper, and the Style over Substance, even with FPP, the whole Idea in my head, is making your "V" who is In a sense, You yourself and not a Stylized Character like say Doomguy/Jensen/Corvo/etc, to get in to that mindset, Character Customization is a good path to take. During Cutscenes we will see them as Ourselves."

And this is another issue.. See when i and many players play the pen and paper game they don't create theirself.. they create their character when they say "We chosen to make the game FPP to deliver a more personal experience" that is missing the whole point of a game based on a pen and paper because is not about you the player is about the character you create on the world.

Cyberpunk 2077 is based on a pen and paper game the character should be the real star here not the player.

Many games that were based on pen and paper did this right:
Baldur's gate saga,Icewind dale saga,Planescape torment, Neverwinter nights, Neverwinter nights 2

Because they were about the character and not the player.

And those are still classics for a reason

Also character is visible during the cutscenes!
What percentage of cutscenes are in a open world game? We know that dialogues are in first person so..

I don't know how to feel about this declaration we are going to see our character only in a small fraction of the game during cutscene? I should be satisfate by that?

Ok we will see npc react depending on what we are aiming the screen at during the conversation.

And this should justify the forced FPP visual? the underperforming of the customization because of it? to me there is too much to lose and too little to gain

Oh I know, I have done digital Art for plenty of Character's still have my First Elf character from D&D, yea we make The characters not based on ourselves, But what we want the characters to be and who they are.
For 2077 though I feel it is they want us to "Be" that character instead of just making "A" character that has me excited.

"And this is another issue.. See when i and many players play the pen and paper game they don't create theirself.. they create their character."

You do Play the character though. You don't imagine yourself looking upon your creation like some being from on High, watching them travel through wondrous adventures and escapades? No, you imagine yourself BEING that person, running through those streets, dodging those bullets, you FEEL the whizz of a bullet past your skin, you feel the gut wrenching as you take large amount of damage, you ARE the character, so First Person Perspective is what to me fits that Mold and Ideal.

Would a Game like Cyberpunk 2077, work with a optional Trigger for both TPP and FPP, Heck yea it would, I don't doubt that one bit, it just matters how the setting, and the Direction the Team wants to take it. Especially if it was a less of a You are The Character setting.
I just don't put alot of the stock of something is less meaningful, because we don't see a lot of it. the Cutscenes may be few and far between, or they may happen more often than we realize.
"Ok we will see npc react depending on what we are aiming the screen at during the conversation.
And this should justify the forced FPP visual? the underperforming of the customization because of it? to me there is too much to lose and too little to gain"
On that I feel the Impact of the setting and what is going on around you the "gravity of the situation" would not be as impactful.

Example A.(FPP) You want to take stock of the situation upon arriving you noticed that your target was not in sight but there was plenty of People in full Combat gear. *You Sneak around the corner* "Freeze you piece of *****" your turn your head to the right (viewpoint) and see a gun 1 inch from the screen, (oh crap this guy has a dang gun at my skull). you move your view to the left there is another Guy with a Shotgun pointed at your Chest.

Example B.(TPP)You want to take stock of the situation upon arriving you noticed that your target was not in sight but there was plenty of People in full Combat gear. *You go to the edge of the corner* You can see a guy on the left of the entry way and the right Due to the camera angle you *toss grenade it blows you rush through* and take them all down with ease.
It is all about Putting the Setting in Perspective.

 

[Mebrilia]

Oh I know, I have done digital Art for plenty of Character's still have my First Elf character from D&D, yea we make The characters not based on ourselves, But what we want the characters to be and who they are.
For 2077 though I feel it is they want us to "Be" that character instead of just making "A" character that has me excited.

"And this is another issue.. See when i and many players play the pen and paper game they don't create theirself.. they create their character."

You do Play the character though. You don't imagine yourself looking upon your creation like some being from on High, watching them travel through wondrous adventures and escapades? No, you imagine yourself BEING that person, running through those streets, dodging those bullets, you FEEL the whizz of a bullet past your skin, you feel the gut wrenching as you take large amount of damage, you ARE the character, so First Person Perspective is what to me fits that Mold and Ideal.

Would a Game like Cyberpunk 2077, work with a optional Trigger for both TPP and FPP, Heck yea it would, I don't doubt that one bit, it just matters how the setting, and the Direction the Team wants to take it. Especially if it was a less of a You are The Character setting.
I just don't put alot of the stock of something is less meaningful, because we don't see a lot of it. the Cutscenes may be few and far between, or they may happen more often than we realize.
"Ok we will see npc react depending on what we are aiming the screen at during the conversation.
And this should justify the forced FPP visual? the underperforming of the customization because of it? to me there is too much to lose and too little to gain"
On that I feel the Impact of the setting and what is going on around you the "gravity of the situation" would not be as impactful.

Example A.(FPP) You want to take stock of the situation upon arriving you noticed that your target was not in sight but there was plenty of People in full Combat gear. *You Sneak around the corner* "Freeze you piece of *****" your turn your head to the right (viewpoint) and see a gun 1 inch from the screen, (oh crap this guy has a dang gun at my skull). you move your view to the left there is another Guy with a Shotgun pointed at your Chest.

Example B.(TPP)You want to take stock of the situation upon arriving you noticed that your target was not in sight but there was plenty of People in full Combat gear. *You go to the edge of the corner* You can see a guy on the left of the entry way and the right Due to the camera angle you *toss grenade it blows you rush through* and take them all down with ease.
It is all about Putting the Setting in Perspective.

Those examples to me would be valid if i was playing a shooter the setting for me have no impact based on the visual chosen at all the narration can feel important and put effort on gravity even in other manners. Did you ever play Jagged alliance 2? You were in a situation and in crazy shotout that your team were actually risking a lot wounds mattered because if one got hit you could stop the bleeding but depending on how the character was hit it had heavy side effects. For example a time one of my main got a shot in the chest and lost counsciosness after eventually i managed to bandage it and avoid him to bleed to death but it was still unable to move if attempted to walk he was stumbling around many times falling to fully recover i had to put it for several game days under a doc attention now that is gravity.

In the setting of cyberpunk looking cool and badass is important so important is in the first four keys in the pen and paper and is not only the attitude is also how you look cool doing stuff.

A FPP restrain again customization replace totally the character with the player and this kills the first of the four key elements of the cyberpunk pen and paper. What you are describing is just features that comes with the first person that are great for a Shooter but again only for a shooter not for an rpg and most important not for a rpg based on a pen and paper game.

That's doesn't justify the forced visual in fact no declarations justify the lack of a toggle between first and third person in the first place.

Again this is too little to gain considering what you are losing.

Customization that matters.

A whole key element of the spirit of the pen and paper because again you are unable to see your character until some cutscenes.

Subpar melee. Because there is no chance melee will be indepth in a first person only game melee fightings require a dynamic visual and first person is static is just aim and click.

Subpar interaction of the world.

And no i don't imagine myself being that person every roleplayer can tell you that if you put yourself in your characters they will always end to be monodimentional.

Instead i am able to play a vastly different variety of character because for me the character is a separated entity.

I get what cd projekt attempts to do but on my opinion this search of immersion is going to far.. Immersion is subjective like saying that first person is more immersive vary from person to person for me for example is not because most of the time it feels gamey and constructed and you lack the awareness you have in your everyday life

 

[Suhiira]

By crippling customization

By telling the players: Sorry guys i know it woulld be super cool to see your character walking around night city how you designed and dressed it and perfectly fitting the spirit of the pen and paper but we think is more immersive FPP.

I wouldn't say it cripples customization. All it really means is you don't spend the game looking at your character ass or over their shoulder. I'll admit I prefer TPP because of situational awareness (most games can't really simulate peripheral vision or hearing a noise off to the side very well) but it's hardly such a major issue as to be a deal breaker for me.

Now FPS and ONLY FPS combat, that would be a deal breaker for me, but that's due to the fact that I don't "twitch" or QTE for shit.

 

[Mebrilia]

I wouldn't say it cripples customization. All it really means is you don't spend the game looking at your character ass or over their shoulder. I'll admit I prefer TPP because of situational awareness (most games can't really simulate peripheral vision or hearing a noise off to the side very well) but it's hardly such a major issue as to be a deal breaker for me.

Now FPS and ONLY FPS combat, that would be a deal breaker for me, but that's due to the fact that I don't "twitch" or QTE for shit.

Yes it does because in a game based in a pen and paper where looking cool is a big part of the spirit of it not having the chance to see your character walking around night city and how it looks while doing so is underperformance not even mentioning that interaction with the world is very limited in first person just look at all those FPP rpgs how much interactive with the game world they are.

I mean i don't think for a cyberpunk 2020 fan have the chance to see and play with their character in a TPP visual seeing how his character is cool walking around is unrasonable.

And yes there is like you say situational awareness something you have in rl while having a FPP but you can't have in a game based FPP that is another big issue.

And yes FPS combat most likely because even if there are stats and skills this is one of the other things FPP only brings in the end they implemented smartlink weapons to solve this issue right that is very indicative to me how the combat is going to be.

There is a reason why FPP RPG makers usually don't put a lot of effort in character customization and they usually end in to make a game with a set protagonist because customization when you are stuck in a visual where you don't see almost never your character or just in cutscene is pointless.

 

[ajiehb]

RPG is all about playing role in the first place. You may want to play yourself or maybe you want to play other gender or be bad person so many posibilities. So don't asume that dev's want us to be ourselfs this time. Making game only FPP take away huge part of customisation of your character. And benefits of FPP are very vague. Also been open world game you will spend hours and hours of game time just exploring the world without any chance to see your characters. Cutscenes can't replace the feeling of seeing your character especially in open world game. Also making dialogues FPP too makes it even worse. As I don't see how it will help us. It will cut your view angle it won't show you how your character reaction and I asume you will be standing still during dialigue. Because otherwise I will just turn back from the people during this scenes for better immersion *facepalm. Also they did ask and made poll before making game what people want FPP or TPP. And did they listened to the results? Did they listened to the reaction when they said it will be only FPP? Why they were hiding so hard that game will be only FPP if they think it's so awasome feature of their game? Because it's FPS and not RPG in the end? Something is wrong with this. I don't like how they were hiding this info about game till the last moment. And how they don't want to speak more about it. If you are so proud of the FPP then who us all the amazing advantages. But no. So far FPP is a big turnoff for the game than something that will promote it. As for gameplay in my opinion FPP has too many limitations for RPG game.

 

[Mebrilia]

RPG is all about playing role in the first place. You may want to play yourself or maybe you want to play other gender or be bad person so many posibilities. So don't asume that dev's want us to be ourselfs this time. Making game only FPP take away huge part of customisation of your character. And benefits of FPP are very vague. Also been open world game you will spend hours and hours of game time just exploring the world without any chance to see your characters. Cutscenes can't replace the feeling of seeing your character especially in open world game. Also making dialogues FPP too makes it even worse. As I don't see how it will help us. It will cut your view angle it won't show you how your character reaction and I asume you will be standing still during dialigue. Because otherwise I will just turn back from the people during this scenes for better immersion *facepalm. Also they did ask and made poll before making game what people want FPP or TPP. And did they listened to the results? Did they listened to the reaction when they said it will be only FPP? Why they were hiding so hard that game will be only FPP if they think it's so awasome feature of their game? Because it's FPS and not RPG in the end? Something is wrong with this. I don't like how they were hiding this info about game till the last moment. And how they don't want to speak more about it. If you are so proud of the FPP then who us all the amazing advantages. But no. So far FPP is a big turnoff for the game than something that will promote it. As for gameplay in my opinion FPP has too many limitations for RPG game.

Well harsh post... But honestly i understand that i think you nailed a lot of things not even mentioning like i said how many cutscenes the game are going to have? We know that dialogues are in first person and also some of the cutscenes are so in the end those declaration to me feel.. a bit odd.

About the reaction well that is not a subject of discussion of this thread but i agree like i mentioned other time they just took the number one fear for the game people were talking about and implemented in the game but i honestly don't think they were hiding this info til the last minute even if even that the situation is not so much clear.

Yep FPP has too many limitations for a fully fledged rpg in that i agree completely.

And i don't see how the game would benefit to be FPP only almost all the things they declared could be perfectly viable if the game had a switch between FPP/TPP and about the directive system well.. If the price is limiting ourself in the first person is not worth it.

Usually FPP only is not a turn off for me however is a turn off when is implemented in a game based on a pen and paper where character agency should be far more important than player agency.

 

[Suhiira]

Yes it does because in a game based in a pen and paper where looking cool is a big part of the spirit of it not having the chance to see your character walking around night city and how it looks while doing so is underperformance not even mentioning that interaction with the world is very limited in first person just look at all those FPP rpgs how much interactive with the game world they are.

You'll see your character in the inventory (clothing) management screen, during cut-scenes, and apparently if you you look down at your feet. Yeah, you won't see them 100% of the time, but you'll have plenty of oppertunities to admire yourself.

 

[BaalNergal]

...What on earth are you talking about? I don't mean to be rude, I'm just genuinely confused.

Ever use a scope or zoom of any sort in those games? That operates only under FPP perspective, since TPP cannot handle zoom of that nature without issues for players. Some of the TPP shooters also have you switch purely to FPP any time you aim down the sights as well.

That is why FPP is necessary for any shooter, even if in a limited implementation.

 

[Mebrilia]

Ever use a scope or zoom of any sort in those games? That operates only under FPP perspective, since TPP cannot handle zoom of that nature without issues for players. Some of the TPP shooters also have you switch purely to FPP any time you aim down the sights as well.

That is why FPP is necessary for any shooter, even if in a limited implementation.

Again this game is not supposed to be a shooter and again that is not something that could not be solved adding a toggle.

 

[ajiehb]

You'll see your character in the inventory (clothing) management screen, during cut-scenes, and apparently if you you look down at your feet. Yeah, you won't see them 100% of the time, but you'll have plenty of oppertunities to admire yourself.

[I feel] you won't have PLENTY of opportunities and those you will are very limited. Also don't count on to seeing part of your feet or arms as alternative to TPP or seeing your character.

[Edited by SigilFey for tone.]

Post automatically merged: Aug 9, 2018

Ever use a scope or zoom of any sort in those games? That operates only under FPP perspective, since TPP cannot handle zoom of that nature without issues for players. Some of the TPP shooters also have you switch purely to FPP any time you aim down the sights as well.

That is why FPP is necessary for any shooter, even if in a limited implementation.

Mass Effect had sniper rifles yet there wasn't any FPP. When you were zoomin in and out you were seeing just image from your scope.

 

[BaalNergal]

Again this game is not supposed to be a shooter and again that is not something that could not be solved adding a toggle.

I don't think they want me repeating what I said about toggles on the previous page

Mass Effect had sniper rifles yet there wasn't any FPP. When you were zoomin in and out you were seeing just image from your scope.

How do you think the image from the scope got to your character's eyes? They looked down the scope. That's still FPP, even if a limited application of it.

You can even see it in animations of others when they are using a sniper rifle; they are animated to look down the scope.

 

[ajiehb]

I don't think they want me repeating what I said about toggles on the previous page



How do you think the image from the scope got to your character's eyes? They looked down the scope. That's still FPP, even if a limited application of it.

You can even see it in animations of others when they are using a sniper rifle; they are animated to look down the scope.

Well I can argue with this as I think it's just image from the scope and nothing else. FFP is a bit different. You can't equate every image character may see through eyes to FFP.

 

[BaalNergal]

Well I can argue with this as I think it's just image from the scope and nothing else. FFP is a bit different. You can't equate every image character may see through eyes to FFP.

I can when it changes the entirety of what's on the screen.

If it were like Shadowrun Returns, where they aim without you seeing through the scope, or it had an image appear in a window without zooming your character in, then I could see what you're saying. But instead, it always involves changing the entire perspective.

But for some strange reason, the only time I see aiming through a scope without a full perspective change is in first person, isometric, and god perspectives. Never in TPP.

 

[Snowflakez]

I don't think they want me repeating what I said about toggles on the previous page



How do you think the image from the scope got to your character's eyes? They looked down the scope. That's still FPP, even if a limited application of it.

You can even see it in animations of others when they are using a sniper rifle; they are animated to look down the scope.

So... Because FPP (if we even want to call it that) is used in a very, very, very small number of cases in those games, that discounts the 90% of the game that is excellent TPP shooting...? And it's proof that FPP is superior for shooting? :unsure:

Sorry, but I don't agree with that and I don't think many people that actually play those games would agree with that. I played the entirety of GTA V and Mass Effect without using a sniper rifle (or anything that snaps to a FPP view) a single time. And it wasn't because I was actively avoiding it, it's because I had so many other options.

By the way, on release, and for a VERY long time after release, GTA V was exclusively third person (yes, with the exception of sniper rifles, and those were actually some of the worst, slowest, and least reliable weapons in the game - targets move too fast). People loved it. Praised it. Held it up as one of the best examples of a modern shooter.

EDIT: Anyway, we are getting off track... I'm not even actively opposed to FPP in 2077. I think it will work well given the narrative choices they've made. Whether or not it works better... I don't honestly know as of yet, because I haven't seen it in action. When I do, I'll have a better idea.

 

[Mebrilia]

I still think game being fpp only has to little to gain.. There are games that have a narration still unmatched that have no cinematics at all and they are in isometric prospective.. To me npc noticing what i am staring while on paper sounds good dosn't justify at all the crippling of customization and the underperforming in so many other aspects because the game is forced first person.

A fpp only game restrain the gameplay in a simple aim and click it lack the dynamism of movement third person has and most important lacks also in awareness.
And honestly i expected to see my character in world this is cyberpunk after all and is based on the cyberpunk pen and paper wanting to see your character while exploring the world should not considered fluff in fact it should be an important part of the game.

Again FPP restrain under many things and is a subpar visual when we talk about rpg you can deny as you want but there are indicative facts around almost all FPP roleplay game are usually or old school dungeon crawlers (in that way you have character customization but character are reduced to be icons) or rpg featuring premade character where customization is gear dependant or don't exist(Kingdom come deliverance, the first deus ex) it is also super annoying because we already have twichy FPS rpg in a cyberpunkish universe around i never expected or wanted this game be a sort of upgraded deus ex.

If i wanted to play deus ex i already had deus ex on my opinion this hunt for immersiveness is doing the game too much damage than what features brings with it.

And frankly following the cd projekt only declaration the feature proposed with this FPP only view are not enough to justify that prospective there was a reason why FPP only were the first or one of the first thing popping up in your fear about the game thread.
Baal your point are valid.. but we are talking about what is supposed to be a roleplay game based on the Cyberpunk pen and paper not a shooter.

And Sulhira i disagree i am talking about seeing my character walking around and interact with the world in many fps that features inventory you can see your character in the inventory screen is not about admiring my character is more about see my character in the context of the world.

 

[BaalNergal]

So... Because FPP (if we even want to call it that) is used in a very, very, very small number of cases in those games, that discounts the 90% of the game that is excellent TPP shooting...? And it's proof that FPP is superior for shooting? :unsure:

Sorry, but I don't agree with that and I don't think many people that actually play those games would agree with that. I played the entirety of GTA V and Mass Effect without using a sniper rifle (or anything that snaps to a FPP view) a single time. And it wasn't because I was actively avoiding it, it's because I had so many other options.

By the way, on release, and for a VERY long time after release, GTA V was exclusively third person (yes, with the exception of sniper rifles, and those were actually some of the worst, slowest, and least reliable weapons in the game - targets move too fast). People loved it. Praised it. Held it up as one of the best examples of a modern shooter.

Proof FPP is superior for shooting is the fact all competitive shooting game competitions use FPS games, which are exclusively FPP.

And, yes. If you are not using pure TPP for the shooting, you cannot be an example of good TPP shooting. Just like if you are not using pure FPP for the shooting, you cannot be an example of good TPP shooting. Note that I am limiting this entirely to the shooting component; the rest of the game can be isometric for all I care as long as you hit the single requirement listed.

You can not agree all you want, but it does not change the fact you still lack a single TPP example that does not involve FPP at some aspect and still must deal with the fact TPP inherently cannot handle all aspects of shooting. If it could, you'd have examples to prove me wrong.

Also, GTA is so upheld because you can run over people with airplanes, cars, etc. Most of the praise I see for it is all of the tricks you can do involving vehicles. If it were purely that, it would be a great example of a vehicle shooter.

EDIT: Anyway, we are getting off track... I'm not even actively opposed to FPP in 2077. I think it will work well given the narrative choices they've made. Whether or not it works better... I don't honestly know as of yet, because I haven't seen it in action. When I do, I'll have a better idea.

I'm merely giving what I think is their logic process behind FPP. Mainly, the idea of minimizing unnecessary work by devoting as many resources as possible outside of what is necessary for a good game experience to a single perspective. In this case, devoting it to the one perspective they absolutely need working in the game, regardless of what other perspectives are present. I really do suspect that thought process and the issues TPP has with scopes are what limited them to FPP.

 

[Snowflakez]

Proof FPP is superior for shooting is the fact all competitive shooting game competitions use FPS games, which are exclusively FPP.

Okay, this discussion is pointless. You have some very unusual ideas about what makes a game "FPP" or "TPP" that do not align with the logic that runs through my head.

Agree to disagree.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

You can not agree all you want, but it does not change the fact you still lack a single TPP example that does not involve FPP at some aspect and still must deal with the fact TPP inherently cannot handle all aspects of shooting. If it could, you'd have examples to prove me wrong.

It's not a matter of whether shooting mechanics could be designed well in TPP. There are entirely too many definitive statements being tossed around (big reason discussions can get out of hand, BTW). TPP could work well with shooting mechanics. The lack of full TPP in a game with heavy usage of range weaponry is more because it's far easier to incorporate those mechanics with FPP.

Zoom is a perfect example. When you zoom you're interested in what is within or near the reticle. The rest of the view space might as well not be there. Dropping a big character model in the middle of the screen only serves to create a distraction. If you're looking at the character you're not looking at the reticle. Good way to miss.

TPP with melee combat falls under similar lines. It mechanically tends to work better because the player can see the position of the character. In FPP they have to rely upon proprioception. Unfortunately, modern games often fail to provide proper tactile feedback, as you would experience IRL, or accurately depict peripheral vision. This is not to say it could not be done well. It's simply not an easy task.

An RPG doesn't need TPP to be an RPG. A shooter doesn't need FPP to be a shooter. The game types aren't defined by the player perspective. They're defined by the game play.