Perspective Thread: Third Person vs First Person debate goes HERE.

[ajiehb]

Do you mean why do I prefer TPP, or do you mean why do I understand the choice of FPP?

Why do you understand the choice of FPP.

 

[Rawls]

Why do you understand the choice of FPP.

Well it has to do mostly with the explanation of the world design and other mechanics. A game is not just about one design decision, it's about how many design decisions come together to make a whole. To be more specific:

(1) The city has been described as very vertical, and the impressions of the city from FPP in the previews we read were very positive. I do think that is in some part because of the perspective decision. See - https://www.pcworld.com/article/3281374/e3/cyberpunk-2077-preview-e3.html

Spoiler: PC WORLD PREVIEW

Listen, I’ve played a lot of video games in my life. Almost 30 years of them at this point. I know what a “city” looks like in video games, and I’ve watched that definition evolve over the years. I remember when Morrowind’s towns seemed bustling, and Oblivion after that. I remember watching a trailer for the original Assassin’s Creed and being stunned how large and crowded it was. I remember driving around Grand Theft Auto V and being in awe of the traffic and the number of unique pedestrians.

So I’m deadly serious when I say: I didn’t think Night City was possible. Not yet, at least. I literally didn’t think the technology existed. What I saw during CD Projekt’s demo was astounding.

At this point, I should probably mention that Cyberpunk 2077 is played in first-person. That means it’s even harder to convey a sense of scale to the player. As we walked out of that apartment, I was stunned as we looked up at towering skyscrapers, dozens of them stretching off into the distance and dotted with billboards and storefronts and all sorts of other signs of life. It felt like an actual city street, something from Manhattan or downtown Los Angeles or Tokyo or some other urban megacomplex.

And the people. The people! Dozens if not hundreds of NPCs casually milling about. Not just walking, but doing things—stopping to look at stores, or talk to each other, in ways that seemed entirely natural. One boxed with an android in a back-alley ring, while onlookers crowded around. These aren’t the robotic schedules I’m used to from Skyrim or Fallout 4, or even The Witcher 3. I’d say Assassin’s Creed: Origins got closest, but even it pales in comparison to what I saw during this Cyberpunk demo.

Night City felt like a living, breathing place.

Whether that illusion holds up over 80 or 100 hours? I can’t say. But in the hour we spent with Cyberpunk 2077, I never grew tired of simply walking around, taking in the sights and sounds. There’s a realism to Night City I’ve never seen, and again: I didn’t think it was possible.

(2) Combat mechanics. While I would argue that melee is normally a less satisfying experience in FPP, I do think that ranged combat is normally better in FPP. Also, I do think that all combat is more intense where your in it and not 3 feet back and 2 feet up. So it's a mixed bag, but I get the decisions as far as feel goes.

(3) The dialogue and world interaction system sounds awesome, and I don't think it would work as well in TPP. Quoting myself for a summary from https://forums.cdprojektred.com/ind...reviews-thread.10970204/page-37#post-11019026 -

Spoiler: Review of Previews Part II

So how does V interact with the world?
Both in and out of combat, there are many ways one can mess with the environment. (6) Out in the open world, for example, advertisements for products can be touched, giving you a market on your HUD where that item can be purchased. (6)

If the player focuses on NPCs with an optical scanner, V can see their stance in life. (4) Text appears over their head saying things like "junkie" or "bodyguard" along with their level. (4) As V walks past people, you can see that some of them can be approached, potentially for conversations or missions. (4) Also, every item in the game, we're told, can be inspected within the inventory. This shows the item close up, where you can look for hidden details and learn bits of lore about the world or, just maybe, discover a clue that will help you on a quest. (6)

In combat there is light destructible elements in certain areas. When fighting a boss character in an exo-suit, for example, V can shoot a lift holding a car to drop it to ground level, creating some on-the-fly cover to hide behind. (6) There is destructible scenery that explodes in the face of gunfire, drifting smoke, bullet tracers that curve through the air and gently rippling water. (3)

How does she interact with non-player-characters?
The goal is for you to not only engage with the game world, but with its inhabitants. Like in the Witcher, you take missions from NPCs and have dialogue options in conversations. (1) The dialogue choices seem like they had real weight to them. (2) At one point in the demo, a deal gone south made V end up getting hacked by her enemy, a line plugged into her that acting as a digital lie detector. (2) The player could lie still, but when she said that she didn’t have back-up (she did) it caused them to search for her partner. (2) All the while, the option to just grab the gun and start a fight persisted, but the player was able to talk their way through without conflict. (2)

Those dialogue options don’t feel as stationary as The Witcher 3. All dialogue appears to happen in real-time. (6) You can continue moving and looking around, but when you focus the camera back on the character you're speaking to, dialogue options appear on screen. (6) There were usually three or four options at any time, which does suggest this system won't be as robust as some other pureblood RPGs. (6) There's no longer the clear distinction of entering and exiting a conversation with someone. Everything flows together. (6) Occasionally more casual dialogue choices would pop up while walking around with V’s NPC partner. (2) That, coupled with the first-person camera, makes Cyberpunk 2077 seems significantly more immersive than having more structured conversations as Geralt. (2)

V doesn't recite the line of dialogue you pick. V delivers her take on the line you pick. (7) One concern this raises is whether the cinematic fleshing-out like this and pre-set responses will affect the depth of the roleplaying. (10) If V is our hero, she often seems to already have concrete personality traits, even if the choices and chat options are yours. (10)

Citations
1 http://www.ign.com/articles/2018/06...-2077-details-game-is-a-first-person-rpg-more
2 http://www.ign.com/articles/2018/06...-like-the-witcher-but-it-does-look-incredible
3 https://www.vg247.com/2018/06/12/cy...c-bombs-bullet-time-everything-know-gameplay/
4 https://www.gameinformer.com/preview/2018/06/12/impressions-and-details-from-50-minutes-of-gameplay
6 https://www.pcgamer.com/cyberpunk-2077-everything-we-learned-from-the-jam-packed-e3-demo/
7 https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...-gameplay-and-interviewed-cd-projekt-about-it
10 https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2018/06/13/cyberpunk-2077-e3-gameplay-demo/#more-554097

So it appears to me that the other systems in the game seem to lend themselves better to a FPP experience. That's why I understand the decision. I could be wrong of course, but we'll see when the game comes out. And of course even that wont settle it, because ultimately the perspective debate is a subjective preference issue at it's core.

EDIT: Also, I think the FPS label is inaccurate based on what we have heard for the reasons I've stated here previously. Of course FPP ranged combat is going to feel somewhat similar to a FPS in ranged combat. However, that does not make the game mechanically a FPS. It sounds like there will be deep progression systems and RPG mechanics, and options to deal with situations through combat, hacking, dialogue or stealth, depending on the situation. That does not sound like a FPS to me at all. I've never talked or hacked my way around combat in Call of Duty. Granted I've never played call of duty since 2011.

 

[mhl333]

I was playing Thief The Dark Project once, the game is first person perspective only and i was shooting with a bow in it. Does it mean I was playing FPS game? Or FPP stealth game?

 

[Sardukhar]

As plenty of people are not enjoying FPS nor FPP but enjoy Witcher games. Me and you don't have any numbers to confirm which group is minority so please don't make rash statements.

It wasn't a rash statement.

 

[BaalNergal]

EDIT: Also, I think the FPS label is inaccurate based on what we have heard for the reasons I've stated here previously. Of course FPP ranged combat is going to feel somewhat similar to a FPS in ranged combat. However, that does not make the game mechanically a FPS. It sounds like there will be deep progression systems and RPG mechanics, and options to deal with situations through combat, hacking, dialogue or stealth, depending on the situation. That does not sound like a FPS to me at all. I've never talked or hacked my way around combat in Call of Duty. Granted I've never played call of duty since 2011.

Call of Duty has been integrating progression systems in their online components for quite some time, and recently in the series started doing it in single player as well. Single player progression systems tend to lend themselves to becoming overpowered relatively quickly in the CoD franchise.

Oh, want to know the secret to being an amazing sniper in Fallout 4? Play Call of Duty extensively; it's similar enough in how the two shooting systems operate that the CoD skills transfer over to FO4 without much need for adaptation. And as you note, CP2077 will likely be in the same boat.

Unfortunately this means that, as far as shooting, comparing CP2077 to an FPS is likely comparing apples to apples. Just one apple happens to also have orange branches grafted onto the tree, while the other comes from a tree that is pure apples.

 

[animalfather]

FPP is perfect for combat and indoors but they should add TPP when walking in the streets. I want to feel like Batou.

 

[AleXiC94]

I've been really shocked when i heard its going to be a first person only, but i cant judge until i actually see the gameplay.
Witcher 3 is my favorite game of all time and the camera angles in it were INSANELY good and on point. Having the same camera in CP would be so good, being able to look at your character from every angle is what people look for in RPGs

 

[Rawls]

Having the same camera in CP would be so good, being able to look at your character from every angle is what people look for in RPGs

They are planning on including a photomode. So this should be possible in theory, just not in live action.

 

[slothman32]

Since this game will be in first person (why didn't they choose second person instead, much better that first or third, hehe) I hope the next game CDPR makes, possibly the witcher they were hinting, is either in TPP or switchable between 1st and 3rd persons.
For this game it does make sense that it is in FPP even though I like third person better.
I was thinking that it might be good if CDPR does game in a different type of view.
That way they won't get "type-cast" into a certain game perspective.

 

[animalfather]

We need DESIGNATED TPP STREETS so we can see the cool stuff that we're wearing

 

[slothman32]

Imagine a mirror maze like at a carnival in this game.
You could look at yourself or just shoot through the glass, and other innocent visitors, to find the exit.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

We need DESIGNATED TPP STREETS

I thought early on that it'd been cool if outside streets were kind of like interactive first person "scenes".

Spoiler

And inside buildings third person freeroam.

Spoiler

Obviously that's not happening, but I don't really think the game "NEEDS" either mode. If it's made all in FPP, it should be made to function that way to the best of its ability with no compromises (within the confines of RPG mechanics and character systems, though... obviously). The result is more likely to feel better if every mechanism is designed specifically from a designated perspective.

 

[Trazon]

Obviously that's not happening, but I don't really think the game "NEEDS" either mode. If it's made all in FPP, it should be made to function that way to the best of its ability with no compromises (within the confines of RPG mechanics and character systems, though... obviously). The result is more likely to feel better if every mechanism is designed specifically from a designated perspective.

Very Well put and on point, Let the Dev's design it to the best of its abilities (which we know CDProjekt can and will do) to make it all fit better doing the one perpective they decided was best for their view of the game, So they can enhance the game around that one mechanic, instead of having to do Twice the work, making it Passable or Great extra way's. Instead of AMAZING the way they see it.

 

[animalfather]

more choice is better. i dont see how the game would falter if we had the choice of TPP. and whenever the action starts it transitions to FPP automatically.

 

[Paffcioo]

I don't want to judge. It's just make me laugh that one of the main flaws of fpp is that you can't see your Cyberpunk wandering around like badass.
It makes me laugh but I respect that...unless you're crying because of NSFW stuff ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[mhl333]

I don't want to judge. It's just make me laugh that one of the main flaws of fpp is that you can't see your Cyberpunk wandering around like badass.
It makes me laugh but I respect that...unless you're crying because of NSFW stuff ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

The other one is that being FPP makes it automatically FPS ^^ As if being a TPP could not mean it would be a simple cover-shooter TPS ;] They could do a shooter in both perspectives as well as RPG game in both perspectives.

 

[Mebrilia]

Is mostly about player vs character..
I honestly believe if cd project will implement a nice immersive first person and not a gamey one like dishonored (where like in a majority of FPP you are just a floating chest wandering around with arms popping out your ears)) i could even enjoy a prospectively correct first person.

Sadly i don't think is the case considering who saw the e3 closed demo answered to my question that the first person there reminded them of dishonored... And this yes it hurts the game for me.. THere is nothing more disgusting for me than a prospectively wrong first person where you can see your body but in the end your character will move like a robot with arms popping out of your ears hands constantly in your face and a AK-47 sticking out of your mouth.

And that is my main problem with it and also yes i would like to see how my character look in night city because in the end even that is part of the cyberpunk roots.. Looking cool.

I am amazed so many people find this trivial seems to me they don't know the setting at all. Said that that can be archieved with a nice photomode now i have no idea how this photomode works i hope it allows you to position your character ala garry's mod..

Now that would be plenty of cool..

Another concerning is this FPP direction will end to cripple customization (cd projekt refuses to answer specific questions like if you are able to cover your arms in chrome)) that is a lot concerning because even trivial stuff like that is massive important in cyberpunk.

What scares me is all the other elements this game is going to have will be "Watered down" to make combat fluidity a precedence for istance:

Like have all this cool open world where you can do absolutely nothing outside sidequests and mainquest.. Where you have chair and stuff all over but you can't interact with it like happens in witcher 3.

Also what degree of customization we will truly have? Since the game is designed with first person in mind our character could dress the items or the cyberware like any other npc?.. Or the character will have some stuff to wear that is perfectly separated from the npc's?

Does the first person means that our character will be restrained in customization with less items,clothes? The full model of the character when wearing something new will update totally or in the photomode will be more limited?

This needs of fluidity of combat will cripple the roleplay elements of the game?.

See first person only i more than a cosmetic choice it imply mechanics or stuff that usually does not cut completely well for rpg's.

This is my main concerns and i wish CD projekt would at this point answer to this questions.

 

[mhl333]

And that is my main problem with it and also yes i would like to see how my character look in night city because in the end even that is part of the cyberpunk roots.. Looking cool.

I am amazed so many people find this trivial seems to me they don't know the setting at all.

Saying we do not need to see our character during gameplay doesn't mean we do not want their appearance to have influence on the world.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

more choice is better. i dont see how the game would falter if we had the choice of TPP. and whenever the action starts it transitions to FPP automatically.

Yeah, access to both perspectives would be great. Sadly, it doesn't appear to be the case. I think it's a bit shortsighted for people to claim the game won't function as an RPG because it's primarily restricted to first person perspective (not saying you are, btw). Both would be better. I doubt we're getting both. The sky isn't falling just because we're not getting both.

Sadly i don't think is the case considering who saw the e3 closed demo answered to my question that the first person there reminded them of dishonored...

It was a single demo released relatively early into development. It's fine if you think the comments about the demo are concerning. I see little reason to get bent out of shape over it though. At least at this point.

This is my main concerns and i wish CD projekt would at this point answer to this questions.

I may be wrong but for the most part CDPR tries to keep information in-house as much as possible until they're ready to release it. Complete transparency over the entire process would be great. It's understandable why it isn't though .

 

[Heart Of Dawn]

Yeah, you don't want to know how that sausage is made.

I just had a thought that might please some people on both sides- remote camera augments.

They could be either A) an aug that launches a scout. This would be a small, flying, drone that you could use to recon areas or even just check yourself out. However, you are limited in what you can do while piloting it.

Or B) a 'sticky' cam. This would be a small spherical camera that you could toss out that would adhere to ceilings and walls. Once you set its FOV it locks, leaving you free to do as you please.