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Phonenix/Phoenix Hatchling is unreasonable

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13 provisions is pretty justified for a card that carries 4 power between rounds and becomes a cross round play. But after the lock mechanism changed to not continue to lock units in the graveyard, this has become an unreasonable move.

It can only be countered by banish or artifact removal, which is fair enough. But it's not fair enough when you can copy the phoenix, and if it is the case that you can copy it, a lock should suffice to lock it's condition, like all other cards. What we have now is what seems like a glitched play, and what seemingly seems like an exploit where people copy and make 3 phoenix hatchlings, which is unreasonable for a gold card, but especially for this card. That's 12 point carry over in every round and an unreasonable counter mechanism.

It was ok as it was before, where you could simply lock the phoenix and make it inactive. They could still copy it, and you might have to use 3 locks to get rid of this move, which is not a cheap counter. But who carries 3 banish card that can damage 4? Or how often do people carry "white frost" that can destroy all artifacts. This seems like a completely unreasonable condition. If you cannot counter this card they get 12 free value from it in each round.

That's not an ok move, and it feels like a glitchy/exploit like move.

I think the multi play of gold cards have got out of hand in general, and I think a discussion would be reasonable at this point. Gold cards you can only have 1 of each, because they are potentially much more powerful than a bronze card, which can have 2 of each in the deck. Being able to play a gold card 3 or 4 times is destructive for this game. Sure, under rare circumstances, perhaps it should be possible to play a gold card a second time, but a third time?

Anyways, the particular order of this play in my game was as follows:
- Caranthir Ar-Feinel play a 1-power copy Phoenix
- Whispering Hillock destroy an allied unit and then play a base copy of it
- Then playing the actual Phoenix from hand

For me Caranthir seems like an unreasonable card in the first place. It can create too much power in one copy. Frequent things I see is creation of Dettlaff: Higher Vampire, Ozzrel, all for a lousy 8 provisions, while placing 3 points on the board plus the 1 power copy, so 4 points plus copy a gold card.

Queen Adalia of Northern Realm can do the same thing, but with a bronze card put on the board with a shield, base copy, and 3 points. Caranthir just seems like alot more powerful a card, and then combine that with whispering hillock too, and it's really bad. Also a lousy 8 provisions to replay a gold card. Ridiculous. Overpowered.

I wouldn't react if it did not shock me that moves are possible. I don't generally react because I lost a game or if something is bad for my own deck, I react when something seems wrong or absurd. Playing 3x Phoenix seems unreasonable, and generally this also reminds me of the whole gold card replay issue that I have seen as of late. I've not reacted too much to it, because it did not seem completely unresonable and overused, but when looking into the situations, cards and potential more in detail, it seems like a very poor choice to make such cards that can replay gold cards over and over.

Anyways, I'm not sure people agree. What do you think guys?
 
Kill phoenix if you can, in case of Caranthir / Hillock combos. At least you'll have one phoenix to worry about. 2-0 them if you play a good deck, problem solved. It's just another memey deck from a streamer, every intelligent net-decker out there has to play. Fortunately, this one is weak.

PS Those who play Ardal, are going to have a good one against this deck. Free carryover.
PS2 Muzzle.
 
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So locks dont work no Phoenix anymore? I used to love my Phoenix deck, which generated 4 Phoenixes, but then they nerfed Phoenix from 5 ot 4pts, and since they added Regis Bloodlust and Northern Wind that banish 4pt cards, plus artefact removal to destroy hatchlings, i stopped using them.

I know this is the opposite the OP intended, but im going back to my Woodland Beasts deck, to "test" this out, if locks really dont stop Phoenixes, i think its a bug - lockes stop the card effect (text), Phoenix doesnt have proper resilience its a card effect so a lock should (unfortunately) work.
 
So locks dont work no Phoenix anymore? I used to love my Phoenix deck, which generated 4 Phoenixes, but then they nerfed Phoenix from 5 ot 4pts, and since they added Regis Bloodlust and Northern Wind that banish 4pt cards, plus artefact removal to destroy hatchlings, i stopped using them.

I know this is the opposite the OP intended, but im going back to my Woodland Beasts deck, to "test" this out, if locks really dont stop Phoenixes, i think its a bug - lockes stop the card effect (text), Phoenix doesnt have proper resilience its a card effect so a lock should (unfortunately) work.
Well, the lock definetely does not work since the lock mechanic was changed in an update about 1 month ago. Units do not stay locked in the graveyard anymore, ergo, the lock on phoenix does not work.
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Kill phoenix if you can, in case of Caranthir / Hillock combos. At least you'll have one phoenix to worry about. 2-0 them if you play a good deck, problem solved. It's just another memey deck from a streamer, every intelligent net-decker out there has to play. Fortunately, this one is weak.

PS Those who play Ardal, are going to have a good one against this deck. Free carryover.
PS2 Muzzle.
Well, I've never met this kind of deck before. But I was very shocked that it was possible, and then I checked the cards behind that move, and I found it even more shocking. Actually, that Caranthir card I have found shocking several times already, but not enough for me to make a post about it.
 
@mzeebra Yeah, i guess its because of that - the locks dont stay in the graveyard.

Just tested it, and had 2 phoenixes on board, one locked, one unlocked (i could purify or unlock but didnt), and they both came back next round.

The best counter seems to be viggo's muzzle, which was what one of my opponents did, but i was able to 2-0 him.

And Morvudd is such an underrated card. Its really easy to put 5-10 beasts on the board and make him a 10-15 point play.
 
I do enjoy different tactics, but not if it feels wrong for the game. When I see something that I'm utterly shocked is possible and convinced is bad for the game, I do raise it on the forum.
 
Except there is nothing really wrong with Vipers objectively speaking. It's not overpowered.
I don't think you understand what "objectively" means. Viper witchers are RNG nonsense, while Phoenix is one of the cooler cards in the game and it's costed pretty high. It seems like you are just trolling these threads...
 
I don't think you understand what "objectively" means. Viper witchers are RNG nonsense, while Phoenix is one of the cooler cards in the game and it's costed pretty high. It seems like you are just trolling these threads...
Phoenix is a great card, but not when you can duplicate it and make 3 and cannot counter it unless you have a special deck.
 
Except there is nothing really wrong with Vipers objectively speaking. It's not overpowered.
It can banish win conditions through RNG. That's worse than just being overpowered.

But it's ok if you complain about something that has clear counters. Great logic.
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Phoenix is a great card, but not when you can duplicate it and make 3 and cannot counter it unless you have a special deck.
You are wrong objectively speaking. There are multiple counters to this card.

Artifact removal
Banish from board
Banish from graveyard
Muzzle/Ardal

Or just straight up out point it. No need for counters. Now go back to telling me there is nothing wrong with banishing cards straight from your deck. That makes a lot of sense.
 
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It can banish win conditions through RNG. That's worse than just being overpowered.

But it's ok if you complain about something that has clear counters. Great logic.
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You are wrong objectively speaking. There are multiple counters to this card.

Artifact removal
Banish from board
Banish from graveyard
Muzzle/Ardal

Or just straight up out point it. No need for counters. Now go back to telling me there is nothing wrong with banishing cards straight from your deck. That makes a lot of sense.
And Gimpy! Give me 6 Phoenixes! Easy peasy :cool:
(Not that I approve of Gimpy's current abilities, just wanted to mention him for the fun of it)
 
Which youtube player made this crap? Saw it yesterday. I also saw NR Meve deck play 8 GOLD cards R3.

That's crap too.
 
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For now, I highly suggest that people run Xavier Lemmens. No idea why so many people don't use him, but he does a good job of countering a lot of the gimmick decks that are floating around right now (this deck included). Take the Phoenix deck I came across last night, for example. Got all three into the graveyard on Round 2, then banished them immediately afterward. My opponent forfeited on the spot.

As for long-term solutions... yeah, Caranthir's provision cost does need work. Just generally speaking, low risk for a high reward is never a good thing and that's exactly how I'd describe the card. A provision cost of 8 is way too low for being able to duplicate a game-changing card. The exact same argument applies for Hillock. 8 provisions to replay a gold card is insane.

I don't think either card needs to have its effect changed, but both absolutely need to see provision costs in the double digits.
 
It's not just Xavier. All cards with banish ability work fine (Heatwave, Regis: Bloodlust, etc.) And if it is about provisions, Phoenix 13 against Bloodlust 10, or Heatwave 12. Xavier 8, but you have to count the prov. from the cards you used to damage Phoenix, so my guess is the total provisions are not worth it (just for Phoenix, that is). All in all it seems fair, or do I miss something?
 
You are wrong objectively speaking. There are multiple counters to this card.

Artifact removal
Banish from board
Banish from graveyard
Muzzle/Ardal

Or just straight up out point it. No need for counters. Now go back to telling me there is nothing wrong with banishing cards straight from your deck. That makes a lot of sense.
Yup, special decks that run white frost or 3 artifact removal cards or 3x4 damage banish cards, or Lemmens.
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And Gimpy! Give me 6 Phoenixes! Easy peasy :cool:
(Not that I approve of Gimpy's current abilities, just wanted to mention him for the fun of it)
Gimpy doesn't counter 3 phoenix plays, he puts them in the graveyard, and they pop up next round. If put up in the first round, it is a 3 round move, not a single round move.
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For now, I highly suggest that people run Xavier Lemmens.
Not everyone can have Lemmens or White Frost in their decks to counter these kind of things.

As for long-term solutions... yeah, Caranthir's provision cost does need work. Just generally speaking, low risk for a high reward is never a good thing and that's exactly how I'd describe the card. A provision cost of 8 is way too low for being able to duplicate a game-changing card. The exact same argument applies for Hillock. 8 provisions to replay a gold card is insane.

I don't think either card needs to have its effect changed, but both absolutely need to see provision costs in the double digits.
Well, that would be a good start, but I think we are talking 13 and 12 provisions there. Take the North for example, similar cards, reinforcements at 6 provisions and Queen something at 11 provisions, both are able to "copy" and play a base copy BRONZE card.

The combination of the two are unreasonable. And why does monsters need to have the ability to replay a gold card twice? Aren't monsters already strong enough?
 
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Yup, special decks that run white frost or 3 artifact removal cards or 3x4 damage banish cards, or 3 card graveyard banish.
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Now you're just arguing to argue as Archangel has accused you of doing. You absolutely don't need white frost which is terrible on average. You certainly don't need 3 artifact removal cards to counter this. This deck succeeds because of two round carryover so each phoenix represents 8 points between the next two rounds. If you get rid of just one of them that is going to add up to at least 8 points or more because this deck buffs beasts which will add at least one more point per phoenix. Any good deck with high tempo is capable of out pointing 8-10 points of carryover especially when the phoenix deck will commonly lose card advantage in the first round just to get the phoenixes out.

Most decks can fit in one artifact removal. Then you have the option of regis bloodlust if you want it or one bomb. If you are NG you can throw in one or two cheap 4 point bronzes that banish from the graveyard. This is easy. Muzzle is a great gold card aside from countering phoenix. Are you seriously whining about not having enough options to beat this deck?

Again you do not have to get rid of all the phoenixes to win and on top of that its very beatable WITHOUT GETTING RID OF ANY OF THEM. This decks biggest strength is against removal decks. Simply play a high value or engine deck and you have a good chance of winning.

Gimpy doesn't counter 3 phoenix plays, he puts them in the graveyard, and they pop up next round. If put up in the first round, it is a 3 round move, not a single round move.
Gimpy isn't a hard counter but he would be a nice big play at the end against 3 phoenix. 12 point play.

Phoenix deck basically always loses the first round. So you literally only have to figure out how to win the second or third round.
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As for long-term solutions... yeah, Caranthir's provision cost does need work. Just generally speaking, low risk for a high reward is never a good thing and that's exactly how I'd describe the card. A provision cost of 8 is way too low for being able to duplicate a game-changing card. The exact same argument applies for Hillock. 8 provisions to replay a gold card is insane.

I don't think either card needs to have its effect changed, but both absolutely need to see provision costs in the double digits.
I'm not going to straight up disagree here but I want to play devils advocate and see where this ends up. My first question is how useful are these cards in general? I very rarely ever see Caranthir or Hillock being used? Can you give me some good examples of what people do with them?

Hillock and Caranthir are both really low tempo plays. The phoenix deck literally has to lose card advantage in the first round in most games because of it.
 
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Well, it's a very rare case that people meet this deck ofcourse, so I had/have no clue how to play against it. I just found it unreasonable that 3 copies can be made.

And it's not like he has nothing in the rest of his deck. Those duplication are really cheap, 8 provisions each. Not exactly a provision killer to duplicate a 13 provision gold card.

I don't care that I lost, I just don't think this kind of thing is good for the game. 3 Phoenix might be the discussion, but also duplication and replay of gold cards in general is the discussion here. Some of that I don't mind and I think can be healthy for the game, but too much is not healthy, and at such low provisions with so many unpredictable circumstances, I think CDPR did not think it through.
 
I don't care that I lost, I just don't think this kind of thing is good for the game. 3 Phoenix might be the discussion, but also duplication and replay of gold cards in general is the discussion here. Some of that I don't mind and I think can be healthy for the game, but too much is not healthy, and at such low provisions with so many unpredictable circumstances, I think CDPR did not think it through.
I am completely stunned at the hypocrisy you have shown in advocating for Viper witchers because it's an interesting tactic to you but being against replaying golds even when it's not overpowered or even a strong deck at all.