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Phonenix/Phoenix Hatchling is unreasonable

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StrykerxS77x

Forum veteran
#41
mzeebra said:
I've seen some things with among other Detlaff: Higher Vampire. It wasn't that powerful, because I had the right counters (Leo, Yrden). But it definitely made me raise my eyebrow when I saw it.
I've seen some other things as well, but I can't say exactly what atm, I don't remember. And regarding gold I've seen various plays from the ST leader double gold special plays, and I've seen various Kingslayer plays.

Doesn't mean I lost those games, just because I think a move is unreasonable.
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No, I said it was unreasonable because you can play a 13 provision gold card 3 times for 29 provisions, and this card carries over in each round. Furthermore I said it was unreasonable, because you need a special deck to counter it properly.

I'm not that good, but I can't see any good way to counter it with a normal deck, despite all the things that have been said on this thread. Gimpy was mentioned, but I don't use Gimpy. Perhaps you mention it because you think it is an auto-include. There is another discussion about Gimpy on this forum which I am participating in.

That might be the case, but I have no "evidence" the sky is blue either.

You're definetely right there. Are you not paying attention? What does it say on the last words of my first post? I'm not seeking some conflict here. And you seem to be mixing the threads, so I'm moving it to the correct one.

Why be so hostile?

I never said to change the card, I'm just partaking in adult talks about it and inputting my view and my opinion. You are the one going hardcore about changing cards (Vipers).

I don't appreciate your tone. I'm fully aware it was buffed because of Emhyr's win rate, but I don't think the change was the right kind of change.
Click to expand...

So literally nothing over powered. My point exactly.

You're concerned about old mechanics that no one else is concerned about and it makes little sense for you to voice those concerns with nothing to back it up. If you look aroud the forum you won't find complaints about copying golds because its not an issue. If anything those cards are too weak.

Once again I have to repeat myself because you are either ignoring my posts or not trying to read them. 29 provisions is NOT what it costs to get phoenix on the board 3 times. You are repeatedly saying something that is not true and its getting old. It costs 49 provisions just for the phoenix cards when you add in royal decree and whispess tribute. Please try to remember that this time.

Again you are purposely not listening. You DO NOT need a special deck to "counter it properly". Myself and other players have already listed for you many counters that can go into basically any deck in the game. Its very easy to tech against and its even easier when you realize how inconsistent this deck is. I had a game today where I only drew the phoenix in the first round. Guess what happened? It got banished as soon as I played it. Game over. Your complaints are unfounded and you would know that if you just tried listening.

Your feelings and opinions are a bad way to evaluate a card or decks power. Use facts and not your personal view.

You keep repeating things that are blatantly not true. Emhyr is not overpowered and was in fact overnerfed to the point he is hard to use now.

I've grown a bit annoyed talking to you because you refuse to listen to facts and because your opinions are extremely inconsistent to the point of being hypocritical. Vipers are bad for the game because of a blatantly unfair ability that has no counter. You are complaining about cards and mechanics as being unreasonable that are factually not overpowered.
 
MeCosmos

MeCosmos

Fresh user
#46
Oh comletely forgot about renew and decoy.
But still it is crazy overkill which doesnt seem to be efficient in any way and it just feeds points to gimpy. Too much of a risk to be worth it.
 
mzeebra

mzeebra

Rookie
#47
I'm just wondering in relation to provisions and tempo.

13 provision renew doesn't seem worth it unless you commit 100% to a phoenix deck. Doesn't leave much room for other gold cards. You loose round 1 on purpose, win round 2 with 1 card, and have equal cards in last round with 16 points on board in a best case scenario. Opponent doesn't have the choice to play round 2 unless they have ALOT of tempo. In a normal situation, perhaps it would be 12 points in last round, opponent having used either a banish or an artifact destroy potantially. But the risk is also that the move could fail with graveyard banish or white frost or other unusual cards.

Don't remember the provisions and advantage and disadvantage of decoy exactly, and I don't know Naglfar.
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StrykerxS77x said:
So literally nothing over powered. My point exactly.
Click to expand...

I've just started playing an Emhyr deck. I mentioned earlier than playing gold cards multiple times is overpowered, and I mentioned Emhyr's new ability as an example.

To be frank, I think this deck I am playing is unfair to the opponent, really. Playing this Emhyr deck has made me realized how right I was when I said replaying gold cards is overpowered. I add Damien De La Tour into my deck, so often I can play a gold card 3 times. I don't think this is fair to any normal decks out there.

The problem with what I am saying is that such decks limit the variety of viable decks, as you almost have no chance to win alot if you do not play some overpowered/defect/glitchy/exploitatious kind of deck. And a "normal" deck has little chance to win against such decks, which eventually will lead to nobody playing normal decks anymore, and everyone playing some overpowered decks. I think this is down to balance issues in the game, and looking into every single card, it's provisions and exactly the consequences of what such cards can do.

I think variety and such is great, and I don't want the game to become narrow, or even much narrower, but I think there has to be some kind of frames and limitations as to what is possible. Not narrowing the game, removing the few wild outlayers.

I know a couple of things which make such decks, and one of them is duplication and replay of gold cards, if this can be taken to the "extreme" and/or if it is a common ability/thing. Another one is spawn and summon endless bronze cards.

I'm just giving my opinion as usual, I'm not saying it's definitely like that, or that I am definitely right, and I am not trying to win a discussion here, and I am not trying to say things should change according to my opinion. I'm just talking about it.

The more such problems exist, and the more overpowered cards there are, the less viable all the rest of the cards become, and the less viable "normal" decks become. And that is something I've seen mentioned frequently on here, people who are annoyed with how little variety there are among the decks at higher ranks.
 
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StrykerxS77x

Forum veteran
#48
mzeebra said:
I'm just wondering in relation to provisions and tempo.

13 provision renew doesn't seem worth it unless you commit 100% to a phoenix deck. Doesn't leave much room for other gold cards. You loose round 1 on purpose, win round 2 with 1 card, and have equal cards in last round with 16 points on board in a best case scenario. Opponent doesn't have the choice to play round 2 unless they have ALOT of tempo. In a normal situation, perhaps it would be 12 points in last round, opponent having used either a banish or an artifact destroy potantially. But the risk is also that the move could fail with graveyard banish or white frost or other unusual cards.

Don't remember the provisions and advantage and disadvantage of decoy exactly, and I don't know Naglfar.
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I've just started playing an Emhyr deck. I mentioned earlier than playing gold cards multiple times is overpowered, and I mentioned Emhyr's new ability as an example.

To be frank, I think this deck I am playing is unfair to the opponent, really. Playing this Emhyr deck has made me realized how right I was when I said replaying gold cards is overpowered. I add Damien De La Tour into my deck, so often I can play a gold card 3 times. I don't think this is fair to any normal decks out there.

The problem with what I am saying is that such decks limit the variety of viable decks, as you almost have no chance to win alot if you do not play some overpowered/defect/glitchy/exploitatious kind of deck. And a "normal" deck has little chance to win against such decks, which eventually will lead to nobody playing normal decks anymore, and everyone playing some overpowered decks. I think this is down to balance issues in the game, and looking into every single card, it's provisions and exactly the consequences of what such cards can do.

I think variety and such is great, and I don't want the game to become narrow, or even much narrower, but I think there has to be some kind of frames and limitations as to what is possible. Not narrowing the game, removing the few wild outlayers.

I know a couple of things which make such decks, and one of them is duplication and replay of gold cards, if this can be taken to the "extreme" and/or if it is a common ability/thing. Another one is spawn and summon endless bronze cards.

I'm just giving my opinion as usual, I'm not saying it's definitely like that, or that I am definitely right, and I am not trying to win a discussion here, and I am not trying to say things should change according to my opinion. I'm just talking about it.

The more such problems exist, and the more overpowered cards there are, the less viable all the rest of the cards become, and the less viable "normal" decks become. And that is something I've seen mentioned frequently on here, people who are annoyed with how little variety there are among the decks at higher ranks.
Click to expand...

I'm going to try to respond to all of this concisely without quoting each thing. Also as nicely as I possibly can.

-I'm curious what rank you are at right now. I'm at rank 4 and I can't remember the last time I have seen Emhyr. Maybe once using the new soldier set up. I have seen no reason to think he is very good right now. My position on replaying golds is that its a very interesting ability and helps the game from feeling dull. There isn't anything wrong with it as long as the devs keep an eye on the possibility of an incredibly good gold card being used multiple times in an overpowered fashion. One example of that happening was with Detlaff. The card itself was too good so they nerfed it and the problem was solved.

-Viable decks are always limited in this game and probably always will be. That is because mathematically there are always a handful of decks better than the rest. This has been a giant issue in the past where the high ranks literally only had 1 or 2 decks being used in them. As more cards and leaders have been added to the game this has become better but it's something that everyone thinks about at some point. There will always be a few decks better than the others. Just more consistent.

-I'm not sure what you mean by "normal" decks. Any deck being used as it was intended to be used by the developers is a normal deck. There are plenty of competitive decks that do not rely on strange tactics like replaying golds multiple times.

-If you're concerned about the game becoming dull then I submit that the game should try to keep as many interesting tactics as possible such as copying golds and bronze cards. Both have been important for deck building since the game was given to the public. The only mechanics I tend to not like are ones that have no counter and consistently hurt the player experience.
 
mzeebra

mzeebra

Rookie
#49
Well, you might be right. Perhaps overpowered things is the only way to beat other overpowered things, I had a guy with some 60 point last card the other day, he caught up my huge lead. But then again, I caught up some guy that was about 40 points ahead of me, with my last move. I'm about 10 below you btw. I near 10, but I stopped playing for a bit and dropped way down. Usurper got me to 11, and I think Emhyr can get me into single digits.

I'm not against gold replays, I'm just worried about it, but as long as what you say, if the developers keep a close eye on it, it will probably be fine. I still think 8 provisions is too cheap though.

I've watched a few decks of freddybabes on youtube and he plays many at pro rank and win, so I guess perhaps there are more viable varieties, but I'm not sure about the viability of those for him in the longrun. What's shown on youtube is just a tiny bit.

With normal decks, I just mean decks that use a big variety of cards, and more plain decks. It just seems that some (maybe alot) cards cannot be in "competitive" decks. Decks that are not that advanced, "normal".

I am a bit worried about the game becoming dull if I continue playing regularly and get to a higher rank than now, say low single digits, that I might just meet the same decks over and over as some say. And that the only way I can deal with that is to also have to build the same decks as everyone else. For me the fun is to build my own decks, I'm not interested in doing netdecks, that seems boring to me.
 
MeCosmos

MeCosmos

Fresh user
#50
Game wont become dull as long as the decks which require combos remain viable. Since certain removal cards which were basicaly in every deck got nerfed, more combo decks started to show up and thats the good sign. It was realy hard before that nerf to make combos work because there was too much of relatively cheap removal. Since the removal is gone, we sudenly got much more variety in playable decks :)

And thats the reason this phoenix deck made an apperance, people are trying new things which wouldnt work before at all.
 
E

Evangium

Forum regular
#51
Locks in work in graveyard/locks don't work in graveyard. Seems CDPR has been flip-flopping on this issue for as long as I've been playing. I remember one period where locks worked in the graveyard and it messed with certain SK strengthening decks strategies. Then they changed it so locks were removed on entering the graveyard, and everything went back to play SK, play NG or just insta-forfiet. I suppose with the back-and-forth changes, they could probably make it into a seasonal thing. Season of the Lock ;)

As for Phoenix, anyone who plays MTGA has probably encountered 'Rekindling Phoenix' by now and knows what a PITA that card can be if not banished or it's egg artifact destroyed. At least with the old locks it made it so Gwent's Phoenix wasn't quite as much a direct copy-paste of Magic's card into an environment lacking sufficient answers for it.
 
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Mr_Mugglez

Mr_Mugglez

Forum regular
#52
The "all in" decks are hilarious. There is a specific point in the game whereby unless your opponenet stops the train, they can't/they lose.

Swims Octivist OB deck was fun in this way. Then after a few wins I thought. I'm making it worse, encouraging it.

My biggest grievance to CDPR was nerfing the dwarfspam deck, which I didn't even know was a thing. I don't play a lot anymore but that deck and my own deck. There was one card difference. So I thought "oh. I am clever at this game after all" One of the 'Tubers' have used it also.

Nerfed within a week.
 
rrc

rrc

Forum veteran
#54
Mr_Mugglez said:
The "all in" decks are hilarious. There is a specific point in the game whereby unless your opponenet stops the train, they can't/they lose.

Swims Octivist OB deck was fun in this way. Then after a few wins I thought. I'm making it worse, encouraging it.

My biggest grievance to CDPR was nerfing the dwarfspam deck, which I didn't even know was a thing. I don't play a lot anymore but that deck and my own deck. There was one card difference. So I thought "oh. I am clever at this game after all" One of the 'Tubers' have used it also.

Nerfed within a week.
Click to expand...
I don't know what the dwarfspam was (I started playing later, may be), but I will believe you. If a ST deck/archetype is good, it gets nerfed in the next patch. But I didn't know it was the thing from the beginning. I thought someone new someone very influential joined CDPR team who hates ST; seems like the *new* is not the case.
 
Mr_Mugglez

Mr_Mugglez

Forum regular
#55
rrc said:
I don't know what the dwarfspam was (I started playing later, may be), but I will believe you. If a ST deck/archetype is good, it gets nerfed in the next patch. But I didn't know it was the thing from the beginning. I thought someone new someone very influential joined CDPR team who hates ST; seems like the *new* is not the case.
Click to expand...
It was a 'point-slam' deck and required minimal intelligence to play. I don't recall any exploit as my deck, was made by me and i'm not good at seeing exploits within the game. It did need a bit of setup as the last card pulled other cards and It got about 20+ points on the board. One of the 'tubers' quit Gwent because of it, handsome lad too hah Naturally, the SK and NG players hated that deck as much as spellatell. Now if NG or SK have huge advantages with their deck (graveyard robbery) then, that's okay. If MO point-spam, that's also okay.
 
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DankTemplar

DankTemplar

Forum regular
#56
The simple solution would be to just add a clause to the Phoenix hatchling, stating that only haltching can be activated per turn.

That prevents uncounterable nonsense, which is the real issue here, because when you go 1st the opponent can't stop the 3 phoenix from getting onto the field even if they have counters.

Kinda wish lock just stayed in the grave though...it helped balance out grave effects.
 
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StrykerxS77x

Forum veteran
#57
DankTemplar said:
The simple solution would be to just add a clause to the Phoenix hatchling, stating that only haltching can be activated per turn.

That prevents uncounterable nonsense, which is the real issue here, because when you go 1st the opponent can't stop the 3 phoenix from getting onto the field even if they have counters.

Kinda wish lock just stayed in the grave though...it helped balance out grave effects.
Click to expand...

If you have counters then why would you need to stop them from hitting the board?
 

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