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Gilrond-i-Virdan

NetWatch
#1
Cyberpunk 2077 for Linux?

Disclaimer: With TW3 basically already being the past for CDPR, time has come to start this topic. This thread is primarily addressed to CDPR, but given they rarely if ever respond to any technical questions, it can end up being simply a discussion / news thread.

Do you plan to develop Cyberpunk 2077 in cross platform fashion from the start, and take in account Linux during all the development process? Lessons learned from TW3 can probably help to understand, that not doing it from the early development phases will only cause problems later on, and simply make such release much harder if not impossible altogether (middleware issues, lock-in issues and so on).

So, can you please share this aspect of CP2077 development?

---------- Updated at 03:28 PM ----------

cc @Marcin Momot, @Rafal_Jaki.
 
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Sardukhar

Moderator
#2
Yeaaaah....questions "primarily addressed to CDPR" should be sent through their contact forms.

The forums are a place for users to discuss CDPR games and related matters, not a place to talk to developers. Just so everyone is clear on the purpose of this forum - it is not a question and answer venue to discuss things with CD PRojekt Red.

It's a place for us to talk about CDPR stuff! And occasionally for Reds to weigh in, of course, but only if they feel like it. No obligation implied or encouraged.

In that spirit, if anyone wants to talk CP 2077 and Linux, this thread is fine. But no bumping it or using it as a platform to yell at devs. Just like the console, perspective and multiplayer questions, if there is news, great. If not, all speculation is equal and will be allowed to die down naturally.
 

Gilrond-i-Virdan

NetWatch
#3
Yeaaaah....questions "primarily addressed to CDPR" should be sent through their contact forms.
What's the problem with using their own forum for such questions? Or you are simply saying it's not effective?



The forums are a place for users to discuss CDPR games and related matters, not a place to talk to developers. Just so everyone is clear on the purpose of this forum - it is not a question and answer venue to discuss things with CD PRojekt Red.
And why is that exactly? I admit, communication is a weak spot for CDPR lately. They mostly avoid it, especially in public. But why should it always be that bad? There is room for improvement. Anyway, this thread isn't specifically focused on communication problems (there is one just for that).

---------- Updated at 04:42 PM ----------

The point of this thread is not in yelling at devs and flaming such things, but in normal dialog and discussion.
 
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Suhiira

Max-Tac
#4
What's the problem with using their own forum for such questions? Or you are simply saying it's not effective?
Perhaps "much less effective" rather then "not effective", the forums are designed to discuss game design ideas not technical ones.

Is the game going to support X, Y, or Z console? Is it going to include VR? Will it use this or that physics engine? These are all issues essentially totally unrelated to the games design.
 
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Gilrond-i-Virdan

NetWatch
#5
Perhaps "much less effective" rather then "not effective", the forums are designed to discuss game design ideas not technical ones.
Why do you see this as a function of design (of the forum as communication channel)? I.e. what does it mean "the forum is not designed for it"? I'm just curious, since I don't see any logical relation here. To bring a counter example, there are quite a number of developers who discuss technical subjects on their forums.
 
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Suhiira

Max-Tac
#7
Why do you see this as a function of design (of the forum as communication channel)? I.e. what does it mean "the forum is not designed for it"? I'm just curious, since I don't see any logical relation here. To bring a counter example, there are quite a number of developers who discuss technical subjects on their forums.
If you look over this CP2077 forum specifically you'll see almost no posts from anyone at CDPR, nor would I expect any here. The Witcher sections are different because they're all released games and as such certain technical bugs have surfaced. You wish to discuss specifics of the design specs of a 2018 (or so) vehicle with the design team and it's still only 2016.

While I'm not a Linux fan-gurl it has a lot of nice features I certainly wish other operating systems had. But as much as it's fans almost refuse to admit it, it is, and will remain, a niche share of the operating system market.
 
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Gilrond-i-Virdan

NetWatch
#8
I can say the same thing about RPGs - it's a niche market, but we are talking about developers who are interested in it. CDPR themselves expressed interest in releasing their games for Linux (if we are to believe what they said). So this isn't even a theoretical topic of "should they or shouldn't they", but it's a practical question, whether they plan to address all these issues right away, or only very late in the development like it happened with TW3, and what in result prevented them from releasing it.
 

Aditya

Max-Tac
#9
It would be a good thing if this will happen. I hope TW3 gets ported for Linux and Mac as well, and even during when TW3 was in pre-ordering stage in 2014 I remember seeing they said it will be available for SteamOS but so far isn't (only TW2 is)

While TW3 on both these other platforms might not be out of the question in the future as the same happened with TW2, I wonder if they could pull off releasing CP77 on XBone, PS4, Windows, Mac and Linux with cross-platform support at the get go. Well they do say CP77 is going to be even more ambitious, so this might be well be one aspect of it, if it happens.
 

Suhiira

Max-Tac
#10
As a former programmer I shudder when I think of operating system ports, I've done a couple, not fun. But it's the only way to handle it because you can't write versions of the game for every OS from scratch.
 

Garrison72

Ghost
#11
Seems like creating a new engine for each game has its drawbacks, ie; less time and resources to port to other platforms, no mod tools, more bugs etc. No, I don't claim to have expertise beyond playing the hell out of their games, but after watching how they've done it 3 times now, it seems retooling their engine is a priority. One would think that means Linux and Mac definitely take a back seat.
 
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Gilrond-i-Virdan

NetWatch
#12
As a former programmer I shudder when I think of operating system ports, I've done a couple, not fun. But it's the only way to handle it because you can't write versions of the game for every OS from scratch.
The key here is taking it into account from the start. It's much harder to do anything when they wake up after using tons of non portable libraries and tools.

---------- Updated at 01:19 PM ----------

after watching how they've done it 3 times now, it seems retooling their engine is a priority. One would think that means Linux and Mac definitely take a back seat.
Unless they'll do this retooling properly, like other engines do. I.e. support all target operating systems from the let go. That's the only right way to do it.
 

Pug.

CyberPsycho
#13
As a former programmer I shudder when I think of operating system ports, I've done a couple, not fun. But it's the only way to handle it because you can't write versions of the game for every OS from scratch.
Yeah, I honestly don't care if they port the game to Linux or Mac. As far as I'm concerned, that's a life-style choice, and there are plenty enough options out there to play CDPR games. If someone doesn't like consoles and they only have a MAC or PC, they are free to use Boot Camp or play the game on Windows like the rest of us plebs. I can promise that Bill Gates will not steal their immortal soul if they choose to do so. These open-world games are buggy enough as it is without carving off precious programming resources to appease those who are unwilling to avail themselves of the aforementioned solutions.
 

Gilrond-i-Virdan

NetWatch
#14
That's nonsense. There aren't any options for those who don't want to pay the Windows tax and don't use DRMed systems (I mean in case of TW3). It's not a "lifestyle", it's a restriction placed by monopolists. Saying you are "free" to play the game on Windows is a fallacy. Windows is nowhere free, in all senses of the word.

And I don't mind consoles. DRM-free ones, with open OSes. Neither of current incumbents counts as such.
 
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Sardukhar

Moderator
#15
Couple words here:

1. You aren't likely to convince Gilrond or any serious alt-OS devotee to swap to a DRMed, non Open-Source platform anytime soon. If that's your objective when you post here, don't. Do not.

2. You aren't likely to convince/dissuade CDPR to port/non-port/integrate-early in this thread with your words. It's a big question for them, they are aware of the options and the resolve of that question is going on regardless of what you say here. If you are trying to tell them to save resources or spend resources in the hopes it will be the convincer, good luck with that. And if you think you can "hammer home" your point with repetition:

3. Don't beat a dead horse. You are free to express your opinion and/or hopes, but if you keep repeating the same thing over and over again, I'll chop it. Make your point, rebut, move on. Do not want a Downgrade/Platform Wars/Hair idiocy thread of same-arguments-repeated-forever. Will not have.

4. Don't be personal. Be friendly, try to be accurate, be detached. If you (unreasonably) take or (deliberately) give offense, then it's splat-time.


On a personal note, I do hope they make a good Linux version of Cyberpunk. More users are good, even the tiny niche that uses Linux for game play. Same for Mac. Also because having an open-source OS for Cyberpunk 2077 is pretty stylistic.

Sure, if it sucks up too many resources, I'd be against it, but that argument can be made against so many other elements of the game. We don't know the resource budget or cost, but presuming it doesn't cut terribly into gameplay and world depth, yeah, Linux. For sure.

Also, it -is- a choice to not play on Windows. A lifestyle choice. It won't hurt you to use Windows, any more than buying non-organic chicken will. Probably less. Some people insist on organic chicken only, but that is their lifestyle choice, regardless of how enthusiastic they are about it.

Edit: Oh, yeah, I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO SAY THIS BECAUSE YOU ALL READ THE RULES, but going against anything I put in Blue, well, that counts as contradicting moderator instructions, an immediate Naughty Thing. So, don't.
 
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Gilrond-i-Virdan

NetWatch
#16
About "lifestyle" point, I don't agree that downgrading your privacy and security by using Windows won't hurt you. It will, even if on potential level (i.e. increasing risks). That's not even a theoretical issue, but pretty pragmatical. Those who want to get informed on this subject, can read security experts who explain at length how DRM alone already poses a security threat, let alone closed / outside controlled nature of the OS (backdoors and etc.). But again, this isn't really the point of this thread.

Regarding convincing - I fully agree, the point here is not to convince CDPR about development methods, I'm sure they can find experts who can explain it all to them at length. The point is to ask them to explain their current methods. I.e. whether they translated the lessons from previous failure to release TW3 for Linux into practical changes for CP2077 development, or they decided that they don't care about these problems (i.e. don't want to spend any effort on it). That's basically it. Judging from the past, chances aren't high that CDPR will come and say "yes, we decided to fix it". More likely, down the line we'll find out that they didn't (or if we are lucky, that they did). But may be they will decide to talk.
 
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Suhiira

Max-Tac
#17
The key here is taking it into account from the start. It's much harder to do anything when they wake up after using tons of non portable libraries and tools.
When you're doing the initial programming for a game you always want to use the tools you know best. If you're also trying to look at the demands/limitations of other operation systems you're going to go insane and take 2-3 times as long to code anything. Not cost-effective/practical.

Personally my programming language of choice is assembler. It's extremely fast, efficient, and has much smaller CPU requirements. Is it the practical choice for almost anything ... no.
As they say ... "You can't always get what you want."
 
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Gilrond-i-Virdan

NetWatch
#18
When you're doing the initial programming for a game you always want to use the tools you know best. If you're also trying to look at the demands/limitations of other operation systems you're going to go insane and take 2-3 times as long to code anything. Not cost-effective/practical.
If you don't have people who know cross platform development - hire them, or train them. That's the right way to do it. Amount of time needed to do proper initial design is incomparable to amount of time needed to rewrite things much later in the process. I.e. TW3 is the real example of this very issue. It could take them longer to develop it (i.e. initial cross platform design), but in result the release would have been actually cross platform. They realized, that trying to rewrite already non portable TW3 post factum would be much much longer and harder than anything above, that's why they simply scrapped the whole thing (and while they said they are still "looking into it", I don't expect any breakthroughs, they put themselves into the corner by not doing it right from the beginning). I think it was management miscalculation on their part.

That's why I guess the fate of CP2077 will depend on the same issue and their current choices. If they will make same ones as before (i.e. starting it post factum), the outcome can be similar as well. I really hope they learned from that experience. Time will tell.
 
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Gilrond-i-Virdan

NetWatch
#20
Not cost/time-effective.
As big a pain as porting operating systems is it's the most effective/efficient method.
It's the only thing that's cost effective. I mean accumulating expertise in-house. Trying to outsource this is a half baked solution, which will always come back later on as new problem. I.e. when you have a cross platform engine and expertise to develop it further - things get much easier. If you don't have that, and each time need to find someone to retrofit an unportable mess to completely different platform - it always remains complicated and every time is a problem.

All engine developers understand it quite well (Unreal, Unity and others). They develop them for all platforms and are experts in that. Those who post factum try to "port" things with wrappers and other workarounds (produced for them by external subcontractors) - never accumulate any expertise, and need to start every time from zero (and results are subpar obviously).
 
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