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Platform Discussion Thread

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Which API do you think CP 2077 will use?

  • DirectX 11

    Votes: 26 22.2%
  • DirectX 12

    Votes: 66 56.4%
  • Vulkan

    Votes: 21 17.9%
  • OpenGL

    Votes: 4 3.4%

  • Total voters
    117
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Gilrond-i-Virdan

Gilrond-i-Virdan

Forum veteran
#421
Jul 2, 2018
Snowflakez said:
When did CDPR say they aren't planning to do a Linux version of 2077?
Click to expand...
The only comment they made was that they aren't making it at present. The rest is open to interpretation. But indeed one can't claim they said they are never going to make it. Formally speaking, they never even said it for TW3 either. But I'd estimate chances of getting it as low, until CDPR will reverse that negative stance on Linux.
 
Garrison72

Garrison72

Mentor
#422
Jul 2, 2018
I'd hope they do include Linux because alternatives to Windows are great. But at this point the most people can do is lobby for it via a petition to show how much support it would truly get.
 
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Reactions: Gilrond-i-Virdan
Gilrond-i-Virdan

Gilrond-i-Virdan

Forum veteran
#423
Jul 2, 2018
Yep, GOG wishlist entry is probably the best such source and it's growing steadily for CP2077.
 
BaalNergal

BaalNergal

Rookie
#424
Jul 2, 2018
Gilrond-i-Virdan said:
Yes, about claims I was referring to several people commenting in this thread, not to CDPR's statements.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, unless we get access to the CP2077 code, we can't know for certain what's going on. Given the range of possibilities for how to program some things, it can easily become almost entirely impossible to use certain OS's simply because you'd have to rewrite too much of the engine to get the game to work. This can even affect different versions of the same operating system; Windows is particularly notorious for this.

So, end of the day, there are a multitude of reasons why CDPR might not do something. Claiming they can without having the code in front of your face is just as much pure speculation as claiming they can't due to a technical error.
 
Gilrond-i-Virdan

Gilrond-i-Virdan

Forum veteran
#425
Jul 2, 2018
BaalNergal said:
Unfortunately, unless we get access to the CP2077 code, we can't know for certain what's going on. Given the range of possibilities for how to program some things, it can easily become almost entirely impossible to use certain OS's simply because you'd have to rewrite too much of the engine to get the game to work. This can even affect different versions of the same operating system; Windows is particularly notorious for this.
Click to expand...
CDPR already need to address cross platform support for PlayStation and Xbox. As always, the worst offender would be the graphics API (same as it was in TW2), thanks to crooked lock-in approach of Sony and MS.

Different versions of Windows is one of the reasons they can use Vulkan. Vulkan works on Windows 7. DX12 does not.
 
BlindManMark

BlindManMark

Forum regular
#426
Jul 2, 2018
Gilrond-i-Virdan said:
It's not about the money.
Click to expand...


You did mention not wanting to give MS $,earlier. My way gives them no $. Either way,I am just trying to help. :) I hate Bill and Melinda as much as any,but refuse to give up my gaming over it.
I have friends who dual boot /XP/7/8/10,etc, with a Linux flavor,so they can enjoy
all the great titles that will never ,ever arrive on Linux. All money is fungible,so ultimately its impossible to play those types of "I'm going to preserve my morality,against,x,y,z..." But hey,keep sticking it to the man,if it makes you feel better. I hope they put it on Linux for those that want it,but fully get why they won't most likely.
 
BaalNergal

BaalNergal

Rookie
#427
Jul 2, 2018
Gilrond-i-Virdan said:
CDPR already need to address cross platform support for PlayStation and Xbox. As always, the worst offender would be the graphics API (same as it was in TW2), thanks to crooked lock-in approach of Sony and MS.

Different versions of Windows is one of the reasons they can use Vulkan. Vulkan works on Windows 7. DX12 does not.
Click to expand...
Cross-platform support between Xbox and Playstation is out of CDPR's hands. That's between Microsoft and Sony, and Sony is known as of late for not playing nice with others. If there are any features that require cross-platform communication, the Playstation likely won't be capable of using them. This is probably a contributing factor to why multiplayer was delayed.

Also, does Vulkan work on the Xbox? And what happens if CDPR decides not to use it anyway?
 
S

sv3672

Forum veteran
#428
Jul 2, 2018
BaalNergal said:
That's between Microsoft and Sony, and Sony is known as of late for not playing nice with others.
Click to expand...
I think that refers to cross-platform multiplayer, rather than releasing a (for now) single player game on multiple platforms. I doubt the Xbox supports Vulkan, I think both the PS4 and XB1 have their own propietary graphics APIs (on the latter a modified version of Direct3D), and only the Nintendo Switch uses Vulkan, but CDPR do not seem to plan releasing games on the Switch. I am not 100% sure about these, however. I also wonder if third party software like Nvidia GameWorks and others used by CDPR work with Vulkan. If I had to bet, I would guess CP2077 will use Direct3D (unsure which version), that is what the developers have experience with and what is already in the previous versions of RED engine.
 
Gilrond-i-Virdan

Gilrond-i-Virdan

Forum veteran
#429
Jul 2, 2018
I surely hope they use Vulkan on Windows, not DX. Bethesda use it now in every new game. On Xbox they have no choice but to use DX - MS on purpose don't support anything else there to force usage of their own API. Same with Sony on PS where they force usage of GNM.

On Windows 7 though they can't use DX12, so it's reasonable for CDPR to use Vulkan there which will also make porting to Linux easier for them (unless they'll decide to ditch Windows 7 support, leaving all those Windows users in the cold, same as with Linux).

Familiarity however isn't going to help if they are going to use DX12 on Xbox anyway - they never used it before and it's completely different from DX11 used in TW3.
 
BaalNergal

BaalNergal

Rookie
#430
Jul 2, 2018
sv3672 said:
I think that refers to cross-platform multiplayer, rather than releasing a (for now) single player game on multiple platforms. I doubt the Xbox supports Vulkan, I think both the PS4 and XB1 have their own propietary graphics APIs (on the latter a modified version of Direct3D), and only the Nintendo Switch uses Vulkan, but CDPR do not seem to plan releasing games on the Switch. I am not 100% sure about these, however. I also wonder if third party software like Nvidia GameWorks and others used by CDPR work with Vulkan. If I had to bet, I would guess CP2077 will use Direct3D (unsure which version), that is what the developers have experience with and what is already in the previous versions of RED engine.
Click to expand...
It kinda refers to both. Sony tries their best to secure a game as an exclusive, or at least having exclusives, on the Playstation in addition to their multiplayer unfriendliness. In many ways, they are even more proprietary than Microsoft.

Gilrond-i-Virdan said:
I surely hope they use Vulkan on Windows, not DX. Bethesda use it now in every new game. On Xbox they have no choice but to use DX - MS on purpose don't support anything else there to force usage of their own API. Same with Sony on PS where they force usage of GNM.

On Windows 7 though they can't use DX12, so it's reasonable for CDPR to use Vulkan there which will also make porting to Linux easier for them (unless they'll decide to ditch Windows 7 support, leaving all those Windows users in the cold, same as with Linux).

Familiarity however isn't going to help if they are going to use DX12 on Xbox anyway - they never used it before and it's completely different from DX11 used in TW3.
Click to expand...
Will it be for Windows 7? I thought they didn't confirm on that and figured Windows 10 was likely.
 
Gilrond-i-Virdan

Gilrond-i-Virdan

Forum veteran
#431
Jul 3, 2018
BaalNergal said:
Will it be for Windows 7? I thought they didn't confirm on that and figured Windows 10 was likely.
Click to expand...
I don't see why not if they'll use Vulkan. A lot of GOG users are quite irritated by Windows 10 and are stuck with Windows 7, so it would be a rough move to ignore them. But if they'll go along with MS lock-in while using DX12, then no Windows 7 indeed.
 
BaalNergal

BaalNergal

Rookie
#432
Jul 3, 2018
Gilrond-i-Virdan said:
I don't see why not if they'll use Vulkan. A lot of GOG users are quite irritated by Windows 10 and are stuck with Windows 7, so it would be a rough move to ignore them. But if they'll go along with MS lock-in while using DX12, then no Windows 7 indeed.
Click to expand...
Well, I was thinking that reducing the number of APIs to develop for might be a consideration for reducing development costs without reducing quality.
 
Gilrond-i-Virdan

Gilrond-i-Virdan

Forum veteran
#433
Jul 3, 2018
BaalNergal said:
Well, I was thinking that reducing the number of APIs to develop for might be a consideration for reducing development costs without reducing quality.
Click to expand...
That actually would increase quality if they use Vulkan, since they'll catch more regressions that way. Though cost is exactly what MS is playing on. They use Xbox lock-in leverage to prevent developers from using Vulkan on Windows (lock-in tax).
 
BaalNergal

BaalNergal

Rookie
#434
Jul 3, 2018
Gilrond-i-Virdan said:
That actually would increase quality if they use Vulkan, since they'll catch more regressions that way. Though cost is exactly what MS is playing on. They use Xbox lock-in leverage to prevent developers from using Vulkan on Windows (lock-in tax).
Click to expand...
And since the game isn't being released for the one platform that does use Vulkan, it's not unreasonable to consider they might not be using it.
 
Gilrond-i-Virdan

Gilrond-i-Virdan

Forum veteran
#435
Jul 3, 2018
BaalNergal said:
And since the game isn't being released for the one platform that does use Vulkan, it's not unreasonable to consider they might not be using it.
Click to expand...
Not sure what you mean, Vulkan is available on all supported Windows versions (let's say Windows 7 and later). So on any Windows they release - they can use Vulkan there. If they are smart, they can use that to make the game more portable to Linux in the future.

That as well can be a useful investment into their engine. They missed that boat with TW3, and scraped the plans to make their engine generic enough for other developers to use. Using Vulkan can help them get back to that goal.
 
Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
BaalNergal

BaalNergal

Rookie
#436
Jul 3, 2018
Gilrond-i-Virdan said:
Not sure what you mean, Vulkan is available on all supported Windows versions (let's say Windows 7 and later). So on any Windows they release - they can use Vulkan there. If they are smart, they can use that to make the game more portable to Linux in the future.
Click to expand...
I meant the Switch. It does use Vulkan for certain, while Windows and Xbox both have Direct3D in common. And then there's Sony's API.
 
Gilrond-i-Virdan

Gilrond-i-Virdan

Forum veteran
#437
Jul 3, 2018
BaalNergal said:
I meant the Switch. It does use Vulkan for certain, while Windows and Xbox both have Direct3D in common. And then there's Sony's API.
Click to expand...
Vulkan is basically available everywhere besides Xbox and PS. And there is work now to remove some of that lock-in for Xbox through translation (portability initiative). Not sure if anyone is working on that for GNM.

Switch also has some Nvidia specific API, but Nintendo support Vulkan and OpenGL there too, which is quite unusual, they are commonly even worse into lock-in than Sony.
 
BaalNergal

BaalNergal

Rookie
#438
Jul 3, 2018
Gilrond-i-Virdan said:
Vulkan is basically available everywhere besides Xbox and PS. And there is work now to remove some of that lock-in for Xbox through translation (portability initiative). Not sure if anyone is working on that for GNM.

Switch also has some Nvidia specific API, but Nintendo support Vulkan and OpenGL there too, which is quite unusual, they are commonly even worse into lock-in than Sony.
Click to expand...
I think we may be looking at an Xbox lock-in for API, given what we know about release choices just because of that. If they were going to use Vulkan, they could possibly do a Switch release as well. Without a Switch release and resulting need for Vulkan to minimize development cost, it would make sense to instead go Direct3D for both Windows and Xbox.

Also, I think Nintendo is trying to establish themselves as being more of a general gaming platform while maintaining the nostalgia of their traditional titles. They have cut a lot of surprising deals as of late. So, I think the Vulkan and OpenGL support are simple pragmatism as part of that.
 
Gilrond-i-Virdan

Gilrond-i-Virdan

Forum veteran
#439
Jul 3, 2018
BaalNergal said:
they could possibly do a Switch release as well.
Click to expand...
I was surprised when Bethesda released new Doom for Switch (not that I play it, but I found that quite amusing). It was doable thanks to Vulkan usage in their engine. And I suppose their game is very scalable and can adapt well to weaker hardware.
 
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BaalNergal

BaalNergal

Rookie
#440
Jul 3, 2018
Gilrond-i-Virdan said:
I was surprised when Bethesda released new Doom for Switch (not that I play it, but I found that quite amusing). It was doable thanks to Vulkan usage in their engine. And I suppose their game is very scalable and can adapt well to weaker hardware.
Click to expand...
That and Skyrim are why I am thinking CP2077 is possible for Switch if Vulkan was used. And since we know scaling wouldn't be as much of an issue...
 
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