Gilrond-i-Virdan;n7037860 said:because they are making the engine from scratch. They can avoid that pitfall and excessive cost by proper design from the start.
Actually, it really depends on how the corporation is set up. What they are obligated to report to their shareholders in their Annual Report would depend on a variety of factors, not least the local law. CDPR is publically traded, so they are, over here, obliged to attempt full disclosure. But saying "We made a Linux port" doesn't mean it went well - could mean quite the opposite.Gilrond-i-Virdan;n7038080 said:TW2 for Linux worked out OK, they officially reported it to shareholders, I already said above. They are obligated to report successes and failures. So unless you claim they lied in the official documents, let's stick to what info we have.
I did not know that.That's a big claim, too - are you a software developer?Gilrond-i-Virdan;n7038080 said:Regarding proper design I meant taking care of making the engine cross platform from the start. Initial effort to do it is lower than effort later to retrofit needed changes for Linux release.
I.e. they in their own words admit the growth of the Linux market. What else do you need them to say to confirm that they see it as worthy enough of attention? Again, the whole year of "working on it" and then abrupt stopping, shows they had a technical issue, not market size one (since market of Linux gaming is gradually growing since then)."On 22 May 2014 CD PROJEKT RED responded to the increased popularity of the Linux platform by releasing its flagship game - The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings - for Linux and SteamOS
Yes I am, but that point isn't just obvious to me. It was explained multiple times by those who help others learn Linux games development. I can find you a few lectures on this subject if you want to hear it from them.Sardukhar;n7038850 said:I did not know that.That's a big claim, too - are you a software developer?
Not from what I've seen from CDPR developers. They pointed out that they heavily invested in new APIs (i.e. DX12 and I hope Vulkan). Using them means rewriting the whole engine from scratch if they want to have a quality result. Here is a good overview if you want to dig into what it can involve:Sardukhar;n7038850 said:Also, Witcher 3's RedEngine 3 is already developed - they are upgrading it for Cyberpunk 2077, according to Jose Texeira for CDPR.
Good is a subjective / disputable term here, and simply irrelevant if the game isn't playable for me.Sardukhar;n7038850 said:There are a lot of developers making games for Linux - but those games aren't, generally, nearly as good as CDPR ones.
Well, in such case, I'll just unlikely to pay any attention to them then until they'll reconsider. They'll be in the same category as EA and Co. As I said, there are enough developers to support with my money who care about Linux users. Time will tell.Sardukhar;n7038850 said:Seems kind of unlikely to change their mind, frankly.
No, that's not the way to do it. Linux users should demonstrate demand and not buy games that aren't released for Linux (unless it's some old game that no one works on anymore, then Wine would be an OK solution). If Linux users would do what you suggested, there will be an excuse for those who don't release games for Linux to say "why should we, go install Windows". Oh, oh, no way.Maelcom404;n7042700 said:It's not that there is a conspiracy against Linux but... If you're looking to play video games on PC, just switch to windows (or find a way to get it...), it's not because you want to that it will happens.
I already explained above why you can't extrapolate anything from TW3. You can read it. But again, if there won't be ever CP2077 for Linux, there won't be any interest in CDPR for me. As simple as that. Show me their statement that they don't want to release it, and I'll change my view on them already today.Maelcom404;n7042700 said:You can be sure there won't be any Cyberpunk 2077 for Linux like.... Never, ever.
If you use DRM yourself, I see no reason why you should tell other users not to show their demand for DRM-free games on DRM-free OS.Maelcom404;n7042700 said:Either find windows, or get a console, or just deal with it.
Does that suppose to mean that you think Linux is technologically behind? Wake up call. Incumbent consoles like PS and Xbox are like audio tapes, because they are always behind the current technology. Linux is ahead, not behind.Maelcom404;n7042700 said:Just like they don't release anything on audio-tape now.
They also said they were going to release mod tools. They released them for W2. They didn't for W3. Know why? Because not enough people used the mod tools to make it worthwhile. They promised a Linux port for W3. They didn't release it. See where I'm going with this? If there actually was a vast userbase for Linux they would've made time. They took the time to port to PS4 when they had never made a PS game before.Gilrond-i-Virdan;n7043220 said:GOG later said that it was a mistake made by that GOG rep, and apologized for the misinformation.
I already explained above why you can't extrapolate anything from TW3. You can read it. But again, if there won't be ever CP2077 for Linux, there won't be any interest in CDPR for me. As simple as that. Show me their statement that they don't want to release it, and I'll change my view on them already today.
If you use DRM yourself, I see no reason why you should tell other users not to show their demand for DRM-free games on DRM-free OS.
Does that suppose to mean that you think Linux is technologically behind? Wake up call. Incumbent consoles like PS and Xbox are like audio tapes, because they are always behind the current technology. Linux is ahead, not behind.
CDPR never made it a secret. They explicitly said, that condition for releasing full modding tools is releasing REDengine for 3rd party developers. Since the later never happened, modding tools never happened too. Compare it to Unreal Engine and their editor. That's what CDPR had in mind from the start. Since TW3 engine is obsolete, there is no reason for them to invest in the editor now. With CP2077 situation can be different, so time will tell if editor will come out eventually.RepHope;n7044680 said:They also said they were going to release mod tools. They released them for W2. They didn't for W3. Know why?
To be clear, I never saw any explicit information about CP2077 engine. CDPR are very secretive about it. But you can use deduction to figure out they are going to use new generation APIs. They said many times it will be way more demanding game than TW3. Older APIs won't cut it for that, and TW3 engine was on the brink of overengineering and they squeezed all they could from it. They even planned a GDC talk about the later, but canceled it eventually: https://web.archive.org/web/20160804010253/http://schedule.gdconf.com/session/here-be-dragons-or-lessons-learned-in-the-development-of-the-witcher-3-wild-huntSardukhar;n7044890 said:Yeah, -everything- I've read says Cyberpunk is being made on REDengine 3. Dunno where you heard differently.
You keep repeating that, and I'll keep repeating that it's only true when development design is done properly. They started doing it too late, and were bitten by difficulty of the task caused by poor planning. Not sure if you are yourself a programmer and understand what it means. Suhiira above seem to have understood what I mean by this. I.e. this has nothing to do with the market. It's about engineering. Bad engineering drives costs up to unacceptable levels, which ends up killing the effort no matter what the market is.Sardukhar;n7044890 said:You do realize that a growing market could ( and probably does) mean 0.5% market share to 0.8% market share right? If Witcher 2 Linux sales had supported it, you'd see Witcher 3 on Linux.
I won't argue about numbers anymore (it's pointless, you don't have them and waving this infamous 1% won't change that). I see nothing convincing that the market isn't worth the effort, and increasing number of gaming studios agree - I buy their games. If CDPR isn't among them, so what. As I said, there are enough other developers to support.Sardukhar;n7044890 said:But I see nothing convincing to indicate a market share higher than 1%.
Not quite yet. May be it will become playable in Wine one day, or CDPR will at some point decide to honor their original plans, who knows. Not today however.Sardukhar;n7044890 said:Really, Witcher 3 is playable for you
Don't they? If they don't respect my opinion on platforms, why should I respect their opinions about them? I.e. the argument "go install Windows" isn't something I'll respect.Sardukhar;n7044890 said:I'll flat guarantee they don't respect your opinion on it - and probably your thoughts on future platforms either.
They expressed interest in the Linux release multiple times. So, no point to present it as something they didn't initiate themselves.Sardukhar;n7044890 said:pestering them to put it on Linux while not playing a multi-years labour of love for these guys is only going to decrease the value of your opinion.
I picked. I support developers who care about Linux users. That's a mutual benefit. We (Linux gamers) get more Linux games, and they (developers) get support for making more of them. Win win for us.Sardukhar;n7044890 said:You can fight to win or fight to lose. Pick.
Sure, but aren't you here to convince CDPR Linux is a viable platform for their work? How are you going to convince devs to develop for Linux if you only buy their games -after- they've made the product on Linux?Gilrond-i-Virdan;n7045160 said:I picked. I support developers who care about Linux users. That's a mutual benefit. We (Linux gamers) get more Linux games, and they (developers) get support for making more of them. Win win for us.
I'm not sure we can convince them of anything here. I doubt they even read these forums much these days. At least if they do, they don't communicate with us here in any way. This thread is more for users and discussion of this subject amongst us. I.e. I personally didn't yet give up on them, and unlike others here don't yet assume they gave up on Linux users too. So, this subject is relevant in my view, same as various other subjects here which are discussed despite basically zero info coming from CDPR. But if in the end it will become clear that CDPR aren't interested in Linux release, I'll agree with you that this topic will lose purpose, and will be first to propose to close it.Sardukhar;n7045280 said:Sure, but aren't you here to convince CDPR Linux is a viable platform for their work?
Sardukhar;n7045280 said:Sure, that's supporting them fiscally, but it's only after they've taken the risk. In not playing Witcher 3 at all, you don't really convince them of anything other than your own stubbornness, it seems to me. Not really the way to sell something.
To your first part, you're probably right. It's not a small decision and the forums don't seem to be a major interface. To your second sentence, they do read the forums, they being an assortment of REDs. They don't say much here for multiple reasons, mostly because communication has to be official nowadays. Anything a RED says gets jumped on and seen as Corporate Policy. Safest plan in that environment is say as little as possible.Gilrond-i-Virdan;n7046430 said:I'm not sure we can convince them of anything here. I doubt they even read these forums much these days.
I see where you're coming from with this and although I wish I didn't have to, I disagree. It's not mutual, especially when you are in a minority position like convincing them of Linux support - or the validity of modding. They don't need the revenue or trouble and so you have to go to extra effort to convince them it's worth it. Because they are doing fine - better than fine - doing neither.Gilrond-i-Virdan;n7046430 said:As I said, support is a mutual thing.
One could convince them if they'd be willing to communicate which means dialog. But they aren't communicating, so how would you know if any arguments are even heard? CDPR never participated in any open discussions about Linux gaming, never attended Linux gaming conferences or were part of major Linux gaming related collaborations like the Vulkan working group (unlike a number of other major gaming studios like Epic and Oxide). So it's hard to evaluate where they stand and what kind of convincing they still lack. And talking to a wall starts looking rather pointless pretty quickly.Sardukhar;n7050020 said:It's not mutual, especially when you are in a minority position like convincing them of Linux support - or the validity of modding. They don't need the revenue or trouble and so you have to go to extra effort to convince them it's worth it. Because they are doing fine - better than fine - doing neither.
I think I clearly said multiple times, that technical difficulties they encountered are probably the reason TW3 Linux release didn't come out in the end. More difficulties always means added cost. However it doesn't make such efforts non feasible in general. As I already said several times, their troubles were self inflicted. That's bread and butter of software development. Poor planning can backfire for project as monolithic and huge as TW3. You can't fix it without spending a lot of time, if you woke up too late to do it. So, proper planning and design is their friend.Sardukhar;n7050020 said:But insisting, again and again, that it's fiscally or technically viable without acknowledging the difficulty and cost of a Linux port?
Yeah, it's an uphill battle, no argument. But they still took a shot at Linux for W2 and also do Linux stuff on GoG, as well as making GoG DRM-free, so there is interest in that shared agenda.Gilrond-i-Virdan;n7050280 said:One could convince them if they'd be willing to communicate which means dialog. But they aren't communicating, so how would you know if any arguments are even heard? CDPR never participated in any open discussions about Linux gaming, never attended Linux gaming conferences or were part of major Linux gaming related collaborations like the Vulkan working group (unlike a number of other major gaming studios like Epic and Oxide).
See, sure you've said multiple times there were technical difficulties, but you also point out communication is lacking. So you don't know that the technical difficulties were the issue, or even an issue. You really don't. You can suppose it or infer it from fairly weak evidence, but you don't know it. And your solution seems kind of simplistic, too: start building in support at the beginning, like that's a magic bullet. If it was that easy, why wouldn't they do it and grab an extra 1%, ( yes, I'll use Steam until I see some more convincing numbers, preferably from a non-Linux site) in sales?Gilrond-i-Virdan;n7050280 said:You can't fix it without spending a lot of time, if you woke up too late to do it. So, proper planning and design is their friend.