Platform Discussion Thread

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Which API do you think CP 2077 will use?


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Mmm. I'm waiting to hear what it will work like. I think it might be something like an actual service. As in, I log into Stadia itself, and I play the games on Stadia. Limited-to-no downloading. That would mean the only thing all of these different platforms need to do is send inputs and display the results. The actual processing for CPU / GPU stuff would be on Stadia's end and limited only by bandwidth. If that happens to be the case, I can foresee something like a simple per-game or general subscription cost for the entire library...but I worry about it being a pay-as-you-go model. The more I play; the more I pay. That could get out of hand fast.

All just speculation, though.




I would doubt it, simply because of how much that would potentially limit the market. (Unless they also plan to offer fibre-optic internet to people at crazy-low prices. ;) )




That's been the case ever since 3D acceleration caught on. Used to have exactly this discussion back in the '90s , too. It's really hard not to focus on visuals, though. Great graphics have always sold well, even if the games themselves were "meh". I've got friends that simply can't deal with the graphics in Deus Ex, Thief 1 and 2, or Freespace 2, and they just won't play the games.

I wish more devs would take approaches like Freelancer, Amalur, or Homeworld. Minimalistic, but they really nail their aesthetics so well, that they're timeless. I'd argue that all 3 of those games carry the same charm and look just as good today as they did when they were released. (I know that Homeworld released the remastered addition, and it's definitely more detailed and still gorgeous. But when I look at screenshots / gameplay of the original by themselves, they're still very "wow".)
That's too bad. Your friends are missing out on some of the best games ever made.

I suppose you're right, though. At the end of the day, games aren't made for us, they are made for the mass market, and the mass market values graphics over gameplay.

Not to say they're dummies who like bad games as long as they look good - the apparent failure of some modern AAA games is evidence that this isn't the case. But rather, as long as a game is entertaining, the depth or complexity of its gameplay seems to matter less if the visuals are appealing. Can't really hate on that point of view too much. Lot of people just want to have fun.

Hence why we haven't seen much in the way of gameplay innovation from AAA studios. Always small improvements from game to game, it seems, until an indie (or CDPR, in some cases) shakes things up.
 
That's too bad. Your friends are missing out on some of the best games ever made.

I suppose you're right, though. At the end of the day, games aren't made for us, they are made for the mass market, and the mass market values graphics over gameplay.

Not to say they're dummies who like bad games as long as they look good - the apparent failure of some modern AAA games is evidence that this isn't the case. But rather, as long as a game is entertaining, the depth or complexity of its gameplay seems to matter less if the visuals are appealing. Can't really hate on that point of view too much. Lot of people just want to have fun.

Hence why we haven't seen much in the way of gameplay innovation from AAA studios. Always small improvements from game to game, it seems, until an indie (or CDPR, in some cases) shakes things up.

They're definitely not dummies! :p We largely have a lot of overlap with the stuff we like, too. (A specific dislike of most multiplayer, especially...ironic as that is.) It's just that only a couple of us are really "hardcore gamers". I'd say most of them buy one or two games per year. I'm easily the biggest geek out of the bunch, there.

I have won a few victories over time (especially with Freelancer and Dawn of War: Dark Crusade), but I just die inside when I give them things like Fallout 2, Outcast, or Thief, and I can tell they're blinded by the blocky polygons.

That's another reason I am so pleased with the indie scene. It not only makes people more willing to put graphics aside for really good gameplay, but it does prove that triple-A games can safely "go places". In that regard, hopefully Stadia will make such indie games even more visible.
 
They're definitely not dummies! :p We largely have a lot of overlap with the stuff we like, too. (A specific dislike of most multiplayer, especially...ironic as that is.) It's just that only a couple of us are really "hardcore gamers". I'd say most of them buy one or two games per year. I'm easily the biggest geek out of the bunch, there.

I have won a few victories over time (especially with Freelancer and Dawn of War: Dark Crusade), but I just die inside when I give them things like Fallout 2, Outcast, or Thief, and I can tell they're blinded by the blocky polygons.

That's another reason I am so pleased with the indie scene. It not only makes people more willing to put graphics aside for really good gameplay, but it does prove that triple-A games can safely "go places". In that regard, hopefully Stadia will make such indie games even more visible.


Side note, Apple Arcade has been announced: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019...rvice-for-mobile-desktop-and-the-living-room/

Does this warrant its own thread, or can this thread become the de-facto "game streaming service" thread?

Sometimes I forget you're a moderator and you can actually do stuff like this. You're too damn nice, Sigi.

Anyway, reason I think this is worth looking at is there are actually some interesting exclusive titles coming out for this - Oceanhorn 2 looks good (I liked the original as a simple alternative to Zelda), and also Beyond a Steel Sky, a 3D sequel (seemingly) to the original pixel-art adventure (available on GoG!).



EDIT: Regarding your friends - I certainly wasn't calling them dummies, quite the opposite. I was trying to make it clear that it's all a matter of taste, and people enjoying graphics and caring somewhat less about good gameplay is not an indication that said taste is inferior. I think you understood that though (my wording was a bit confusing so just clarifying).

As you know, I'm also not a huge fan of multiplayer, so I think we're alike there. I think it can actually be quite fun when its essentially just the single player game + 1 person, like Crusader Kings 2 or Civilization, but I don't play many games like Overwatch anymore - used to! Not so much now.
 
Mmm. I'm waiting to hear what it will work like. I think it might be something like an actual service. As in, I log into Stadia itself, and I play the games on Stadia. Limited-to-no downloading. That would mean the only thing all of these different platforms need to do is send inputs and display the results. The actual processing for CPU / GPU stuff would be on Stadia's end and limited only by bandwidth. If that happens to be the case, I can foresee something like a simple per-game or general subscription cost for the entire library...but I worry about it being a pay-as-you-go model. The more I play; the more I pay. That could get out of hand fast.

All just speculation, though.

You can watch this one, I think it answers all your questions about how it works. Except what pricing model is going to be used.

 
You can watch this one, I think it answers all your questions about how it works. Except what pricing model is going to be used.


Yeah, that's more or less what I've come across so far. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a laudable goal! I also think the idea is sound.

But I still think it will take a long time to be able to properly support anything more than basic games because of the sheer volume of players. And, I still think it's a platform that is dangeroulsy open to wild greed. We can but hope.
 
That's another reason I am so pleased with the indie scene. It not only makes people more willing to put graphics aside for really good gameplay, but it does prove that triple-A games can safely "go places". In that regard, hopefully Stadia will make such indie games even more visible.

Steam has 90 mill monthyl user? That isnt enough visibility for indies? You are succesful at Steam, you cn triple your money with consoles, easily, consoles tend to sell more.

Im more interested to know how game industry accommodate big investors, companies who are willing to invest big to make big profits instead. Yeah, those companies who are in it for the money. EA might be one option but Ive a feeling EA hads too much on their hands already and their reputation is more or less ruined as triple A Company.
 
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Steam has 90 mill monthyl user? That isnt enough visibility for indies? You are succesful at Steam, you cn triple your money with consoles, easily, consoles tend to sell more.

Im more interested to know how game industry accommodate big investors, companies who are willing to invest big to make big profits instead. Yeah, those companies who are in it for the money. EA might be one option but Ive a feeling EA hads too much on their hands already and their reputation is more or less ruined as triple A Company.
The problem with Steam and indies is that Steam is filled with trash games. Literally filled with them. Asset flips, low-effort meme games, you name it -hundreds and hundreds of them.

Any indie dev will tell you that unless you're already known in the scene, it's VERY hard to make a name for yourself.

So it's not that there's not enough visibility, it's that there's way too much garbage competition that potential customers won't even find your game.

The benefit of platforms like Stadia is that you won't be fighting against those games.
 
They have GOG if they need better presentation. And who said getting on Stadia will be very easy? So far it's not clear how they'll select games.
 
The problem with Steam and indies is that Steam is filled with trash games. Literally filled with them. Asset flips, low-effort meme games, you name it -hundreds and hundreds of them.

Any indie dev will tell you that unless you're already known in the scene, it's VERY hard to make a name for yourself.

So it's not that there's not enough visibility, it's that there's way too much garbage competition that potential customers won't even find your game.

The benefit of platforms like Stadia is that you won't be fighting against those games.

Stadia is way too good to waste on indies. if anything help those companies that are interested to invest big, imho.
 
Google explicitly said they are working with Unity, which is not commonly used by huge studios. So they'll have smaller games as well clearly.
 
They have GOG if they need better presentation. And who said getting on Stadia will be very easy? So far it's not clear how they'll select games.
Yeah, but it's not that simple. GoG's userbase is still much smaller than Steam's. Stadia's could be much bigger.

It not being easy is actually a plus - it means the good studios have a better chance of getting on while the trash ones (Digital Homicide, anyone?) have nada.

I'm not saying they should or would go there exclusively; just that Stadia's potential for indies is very high. It's a positive thing, and it shouldn't have any negative impact on their ability to sell elsewhere (I don't think Google is going the Epic route with snapping up studios' latest games as exclusives).

Ubisoft, BGS and EA are all linked to Stadia, so there will be plenty of triple a engines/studios on board.

Not saying otherwise. It can be good for both.
 
I'm not saying they should or would go there exclusively; just that Stadia's potential for indies is very high. It's a positive thing, and it shouldn't have any negative impact on their ability to sell elsewhere (I don't think Google is going the Epic route with snapping up studios' latest games as exclusives)..

What do you mean by potential? Its potentital to get big investors too. Like Lars Butler gave us Rift. Amazon? Amazon New World is joke compared to Amazon's funds, so they are afraid in investing big. Warner? Mad Max and Middle Earth both looks they went into milk-mode. Game industry should make it easier for big investors. YouTubers could easily be the first line of an attack, just an idea.

Btw, Stadia is very likely to be much bigger than Steam, YouTube gets 200 mill clicks per day from games. Steam is at 90mill monthly user.
 
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Yeah, that's more or less what I've come across so far. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a laudable goal! I also think the idea is sound.

But I still think it will take a long time to be able to properly support anything more than basic games because of the sheer volume of players. And, I still think it's a platform that is dangeroulsy open to wild greed. We can but hope.

They must have taken that into account or the whole thing will fail. My guess is that since this is cloud based, Google probably won't need one running copy of a game for each player, but will transfer personal settings, progression, save games and so forth to each ones personal cloud account and the same game is then streamed to X number of players at the same time.

But I do agree with you, that at launch we probably wont see every single game being available, but that could quickly change, depending on how easy it is to modify current games to work on Stadia, if its easy and the pricing model used is attractive to both developers and customers, it could be a new "you need to be on Stadia thing".
So assuming it works as well as Google say, the biggest threat to its success is then going to be the pricing model it self, if they can't convince either the developers or customers, it will fail, and I do agree that if the platform allow each company to decide a price, greed could potentially kill it as well.

My best guess of how this will work is that you buy games normally as you do now. The developers can then add support for Stadia in their games, most likely free of charge as that would make sense I think. By doing that, people wanting to use it will need a subscription with Google sort of Netflix style and any game they own will be available to them. That way the developers won't have to pay Google anything or maybe just a one time entry fee for putting it on Stadia, simply to avoid everyone putting stuff there. The game studios would still make the same or more money selling games as they do now as they can reach more customers. But it would be slightly more expensive for players as they have to pay the subscription fee to Google each month, but on the other hand reducing the cost of having to go out and buy expensive computer stuff.

But that is obviously a guess. But I think that could potentially make a pricing model that would work for everyone.
 
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Steam has 90 mill monthyl user? That isnt enough visibility for indies? You are succesful at Steam, you cn triple your money with consoles, easily, consoles tend to sell more.
The problem with Steam and indies is that Steam is filled with trash games. Literally filled with them. Asset flips, low-effort meme games, you name it -hundreds and hundreds of them.

Any indie dev will tell you that unless you're already known in the scene, it's VERY hard to make a name for yourself.

^ This mostly. Not saying that most of the game are trash, necessarily, but the sheer volume of "stuff" is astronomical. If I happen to build an absolutely amazing game on RPG Maker...how do I make that stand out from the thousands upon thousands of other games on Steam? How do you speak to 90 million people?

Plus, once I pass Greenlight, where's any level quality control following that? The advertising is also a bit wonky. I've noticed for a few years now that a tactic some studios use seems to be creating individual adverts for every, single item that's created on as DLC. Check the full "New Releases" list, and 10-20 pages of it are often filled with DLC content for the same 2-3 games. This clogs up the advertising for any new game in that same price range. Managing filters won't always work, as many games share the same genre or ratings as that DLC avalanche, too.

My hope is that Stadia will do something to quash both the volume and advertising that's visible at any one time. A filter like "Digging for Gems" would be nice. Show me all games with ratings of Positive to Very Positive that have 10 reviews or less.


They must have taken that into account or the whole thing will fail. My guess is that since this is cloud based, Google probably won't need one running copy of a game for each player, but will transfer personal settings, progression, save games and so forth to each ones personal cloud account and the same game is then streamed to X number of players at the same time.

But I do agree with you, that at launch we probably wont see every single game being available, but that could quickly change, depending on how easy it is to modify current games to work on Stadia, if its easy and the pricing model used is attractive to both developers and customers, it could be a new "you need to be on Stadia thing".
So assuming it works as well as Google say, the biggest threat to its success is then going to be the pricing model it self, if they can't convince either the developers or customers, it will fail, and I do agree that if the platform allow each company to decide a price, greed could potentially kill it as well.

My best guess of how this will work is that you buy games normally as you do now. The developers can then add support for Stadia in their games, most likely free of charge as that would make sense I think. By doing that, people wanting to use it will need a subscription with Google sort of Netflix style and any game they own will be available to them. That way the developers won't have to pay Google anything or maybe just a one time entry fee for putting it on Stadia, simply to avoid everyone putting stuff there. The game studios would still make the same or more money selling games as they do now as they can reach more customers. But it would be slightly more expensive for players as they have to pay the subscription fee to Google each month, but on the other hand reducing the cost of having to go out and buy expensive computer stuff.

But that is obviously a guess. But I think that could potentially make a pricing model that would work for everyone.

I will make a formal prophecy. (Begins a ritual. Burns some incense. Sea shells and chicken bones flying all over the place.) It will launch, and the first thing we're going to hear is:

1.) Connectivity issues! Stadia is now live, but don't plan on playing anything for too long.
2.) Underwhelming library. A few great titles, but not much else on offer.
3.) Performance / stability woes for [InsertTitle] on [InsertPlatform].
4.) My [NonStadia] peripheral (mouse, keyboard, gamepad, camera, mic, etc.) isn't working correctly.
5.) Multiplayer drops connection / lags / is wildly out of sync.
6.) Stadia is the greatest thing since running water! Go out and try it now!

(Pauses. Douses the incense. Lots of smoke. Coughs and waves his hand.)

The only reason I make such a prophecy is because this is how all ambitious projects like this go. Google can't possibly rely exclusively on their own tech. The sheer variety of other tech will cause issues. Same with the games. The idea of devs building exclusively for Stadia servers is a great concept, but there is no way to account for how those servers will interact with player's hardware configs. (I mean...ever had a problem with a website before? Even though everyone else says it's fine? Now they're going to try to stream complex gameplay to multiple millions of users...per title...simultaneously...? I'm sure there won't be any major issues. :whistle:)

And, then there's the actual bugs that will invariably occur.

But folks will buy into it. Enough stuff will probably work to make it worthwhile for enough people to put up with the issues. Some years later, I'm sure it will be stable enough to be widespread. At that point, we'll see if Google can do any better than what we've already got, or if they'll just wind up getting in line for their paycheck.
 
What do you mean by potential? Its potentital to get big investors too. Like Lars Butler gave us Rift. Amazon? Amazon New World is joke compared to Amazon's funds, so they are afraid in investing big. Warner? Mad Max and Middle Earth both looks they went into milk-mode. Game industry should make it easier for big investors. YouTubers could easily be the first line of an attack, just an idea.

Btw, Stadia is very likely to be much bigger than Steam, YouTube gets 200 mill clicks per day from games. Steam is at 90mill monthly user.
I give up. Even when I try to find middle ground it fails.
 
Google will try to pitch Stadia specific features. Like "sharing playthrough checkpoints with friends" and the like. They also will mostly focus on multiplayer I think. Having a massive connected backend is very conductive for games like MMORPGs.
 
I will make a formal prophecy. (Begins a ritual. Burns some incense. Sea shells and chicken bones flying all over the place.) It will launch, and the first thing we're going to hear is:

1.) Connectivity issues! Stadia is now live, but don't plan on playing anything for too long.
2.) Underwhelming library. A few great titles, but not much else on offer.
3.) Performance / stability woes for [InsertTitle] on [InsertPlatform].
4.) My [NonStadia] peripheral (mouse, keyboard, gamepad, camera, mic, etc.) isn't working correctly.
5.) Multiplayer drops connection / lags / is wildly out of sync.
6.) Stadia is the greatest thing since running water! Go out and try it now!

(Pauses. Douses the incense. Lots of smoke. Coughs and waves his hand.)

The only reason I make such a prophecy is because this is how all ambitious projects like this go. Google can't possibly rely exclusively on their own tech. The sheer variety of other tech will cause issues. Same with the games. The idea of devs building exclusively for Stadia servers is a great concept, but there is no way to account for how those servers will interact with player's hardware configs. (I mean...ever had a problem with a website before? Even though everyone else says it's fine? Now they're going to try to stream complex gameplay to multiple millions of users...per title...simultaneously...? I'm sure there won't be any major issues. :whistle:)

And, then there's the actual bugs that will invariably occur.

But folks will buy into it. Enough stuff will probably work to make it worthwhile for enough people to put up with the issues. Some years later, I'm sure it will be stable enough to be widespread. At that point, we'll see if Google can do any better than what we've already got, or if they'll just wind up getting in line for their paycheck.

I definitely share your concerns a project of such scale is expected to have issues, especially at launch. But I believe they have said that you only need the Chrome browser, I don't think there will be a massive issues in regard to peoples hardware, but rather as you mentioned, network and connectivity issues.

Whether Google can rely on their own tech im not sure of, it depends on how it is integrated into games. If it turns out that it is an extremely complicated process that will change how games are fundamentally made in large scales, then I think you are right and it can cause a lot of issues. But if it doesn't really change a lot and only requires "minor" changes, it might only turn out to be startup issues, which could potentially be solved rather fast as developers gets experience with the tech. So at least for me, I think it can go both ways.
 
I give up. Even when I try to find middle ground it fails.

Theres plenty of places for indies, both consoles accept them and steam too, if you are really broke you can get money from kickstart.

Get big investors sounds more fun to me. Offer them good attack force. Get them instantly all over YouTube, maybe a few shop like Origin, Steam? Some Journalists sites. Of course for a price. If players like your game, you can have long career in game industry.
 
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I definitely share your concerns a project of such scale is expected to have issues, especially at launch. But I believe they have said that you only need the Chrome browser, I don't think there will be a massive issues in regard to peoples hardware, but rather as you mentioned, network and connectivity issues.

Well, I'll put it this way: last year, I started having a few issues that still haven't been resolved with Chrome. It affects the two computers I normally use, but not in the same ways (images won't display, websites don't load 100%, hotkeys stop functioning, AdBlock will randomly suspend, bookmarks are not saving properly or are being overwritten by other people's bookmarks from other accounts on my PC, etc.) Google support has not been able to do anything to resolve it. It still "works", but it's dysfunctional in odd places. They assure me it is not anything with my account, but they can't offer any solution or explain what may have happened. (I've been using Firefox almost exclusively for the past year to get around it.)

Small issues, truly, but these are things going wrong with just the browser itself. Now, they're going to create a universal, real-time, online-only, server-based system that not only hosts and markets games, but actually runs them for every person in the world that happens to be playing it at that point. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great idea, and I do think it will eventually work.

But, I don't think it's going to have issues at the beginning -- I think it's going to be a small disaster that has massive problems for years after it's released.


Whether Google can rely on their own tech im not sure of, it depends on how it is integrated into games. If it turns out that it is an extremely complicated process that will change how games are fundamentally made in large scales, then I think you are right and it can cause a lot of issues. But if it doesn't really change a lot and only requires "minor" changes, it might only turn out to be startup issues, which could potentially be solved rather fast as developers gets experience with the tech. So at least for me, I think it can go both ways.

I think the major factor will be bandwidth. The fibre-optic "hubs" with direct connections to the Stadia servers is a great idea. But how people connect to those hubs is still going to be limited by a whole spectrum of different hardware with different performance. I know that the games will inherently "stream"...but there will still be a need to send packages back and forth for things like input commands, dynamic sounds, multiplayer sync. When I think of how often I experience problems with even long-established streaming sites like YouTube or Twitch, I can only take my hat off to Google for even attempting something like this on modern hardware.

But, gotta start somewhere! :D
 
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