Platform Discussion Thread

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Which API do you think CP 2077 will use?


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Sardukhar;n7050760 said:
And that Linux users who hate DRM will eventually run dual-boot.

Most won't. More likely they'll skip games of those who don't care about their choice. That's my experience from a lot of Linux gaming sources. Dual booting is a minority among Linux gamers which was also shown by various surveys in the past.

Not hiring developers is dependent on "penguinophobia" or whatever you called it, not really on fear of the market size. I.e. as you said, it's not about money, it's about management being strangers. For instance Flying Wild Hog explicitly hired Linux developers to work on their engine in-house. And multiple other studios did, as I already said before. CDPR could do it, even while being picky about who they hire.
 
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But it's still maybe, at best, a 2-3% increase in sales. I'm skeptical that would even pay for the increased development time and the salary of any Linux people they hired.
​And I say 2-3% because that's the percentage of Linux web browsers using the internet ... look it up.
 
Web browsers usage is not helpful, because most of those people aren't gamers. And regardless, as I said, the demand is already being addressed by increasing number of game makers, so they demonstrate that demand is here and market is sufficient for them to work on Linux releases.

Having developers in-house is investment in the engine. I.e. making it properly cross platform. I'd say it's a very good investment which other studios simply appreciate more than CDPR.
 
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Gilrond-i-Virdan;n7055630 said:
I'd say it's a very good investment which other studios simply appreciate more than CDPR.

Yeah, but few other developers. It's not a very good investment for the studios that don't do it, obviously. Linux games and games for Linux just aren't a priority. An increasing number from what percentage to what? Just what are you using for this belief that Linux has more than a tiny percentage of the gaming market?

Going by that logic, CDPR and other devs are much smarter to look at Android way before Linux. Now, there are some growth numbers. App Annie says in Feb 2016, mobile gaming is 35 billion globally. What's Linux gaming represent? 10 million? Five? According to who, since you don't like the data from the largest PC digital distribution platform in the world?

1 to 2% of the market share of PC gaming (according to Gaming on Linux) is still tiny. It is. And extra effort to get that 1%, well. What if it doubles to 2 to 4%? That's a huge increase, a straight doubling, and you probably already saw that increase after SteamOS launched. So, yeah, gaming increases, but Linux prob. stick around 1 to 2%, unless people stop using Windows.

That's not even factoring in the percentage after consoles get in there. What's 1% of that market?

If you check the link at GoL, (if that's not your website, guy seemed very familiar), you'll see the games he used are pretty small. These aren't usually AAA games with corresponding sales - and budgets.

You talk about sales potential and market potential, but then you ignore Su's point about the web browsers. So what if those people aren't gaming? That's your Linux market right there. Sources like that are part of measuring the Linux marketplace, yes.

Gilrond, part of the issue is you refuse to accept any data from any source that indicates Linux gaming use is a tiny percentage of platforms. Which nearly everyone else believes and accepts, based on everything we've experienced and nearly all the data we see.

It's kind of a vaccination-causes-autism, moon-landings-were-faked, earth-is-really-flat thing. Most developers don't make games for Linux, especially expensive triple A games, because they'd rather spend the resources elsewhere.

Admitting that Linux is a risky investment but one that you think will pay off in the future, admitting that Linux may be a minority but still represents hundreds of thousands of customers, admitting that Linux may not be the future for everyone but atill has much to contribute to gaming and CDPR in particular, this would go a long way to convincing people you aren't blindly fanatical on the subject.



 
Suhiira;n7054040 said:
But it's still maybe, at best, a 2-3% increase in sales. ​And I say 2-3% because that's the percentage of Linux web browsers using the internet ... look it up.
Gilrond-i-Virdan;n7055630 said:
Web browsers usage is not helpful, because most of those people aren't gamers.

They won't lose money developping a port only for a handful of "possible" sold game (because, let's face it, people will crack it), seeing how they supposedly planned Witcher 3, then canceled it, like "nope, never gonna happens" that's enought for kinda knowing they won't even bother talking about a linux port.

We start with like 2,3% using linux, that's already really small.
Then only like barely 1% would "maybe" want this game.
Now, how many of those 1% would really buy that game?

Would you work for free during your week ends if your boss would ask you?
No, because it's a pain in the ass and no one like to give a hard work for nothing.

So, either you won't have a port, either you'll have a bad one made by a tier-company that don't care at all about the game "because we won't hire a top tier port-company for a support that will have something like 0,1% rentability".

It's not a mindset blocker, it's just that no one use Linux, nada, zero, no one.
At least, most people, as you said, use it for having a secure work station.
But, people looking for games mostly aim for Windows, just because it's the common game platform and it's easier for everyone, kind of a standard.
Why do you think you have barely any games on Mac? Well, it's the same, most Mac users don't care for video games, so it's not a "demand" thing or whatever, it's just not interesting.
Would you got sell legwarmers in the desert?
Sure, you'd probably sell a few to some freaks, but that's not worth the troubles...


Tho why can't I get a port for my Jaguar64?
I mean, there's that petition and stuff, plus CDPR never said that they'd never port it to Genesis or Jaguar64?
Did they? No!
That mean it still can happens.
 
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Sardukhar: Android is out of scope, if we are talking about complex and high end games. Mobile games is a different section of the industry, and I'm personally not really interested in it that much and I'm not concerned about whether CDPR are interested in it or not themselves.

Investment in the engine is good when engine itself is not seen as throwaway. I.e. examples like Unity, Unreal and others are engines which have long term development plans and such kind of engines all support Linux already. In CDPR's case, benefits of investment would depend on the throwaway / non throwaway status too. TW3 engine was a one time thing. Will CP2077 engine be different and will CDPR decide they want to let others use it as well? That would define how much competitive pressure they'll get. It's one thing for them to say "We don't care about Linux users, we release games for Windows only, who cares about competing studios". It's quite different thing to say "Sorry developers, our engine isn't really cross platform. Would you use it still?". And developers would tell them - "You know, your competition doesn't have that problem, we'd rather look at them". You get the idea.

Point about browsers is extrapolating that percentage. You can't use global percentages as is, because vast majority of those people aren't gamers, I.e. you as well can have a situation when percentage of Linux users who are gamers is higher (among all Linux users) than percentage of Windows users who are gamers (among all Windows users). As I said, using statistics is more complicated than it seems. You can't ignore context which most don't pay attention to.

The directly useful data we see are sales percentages per platform from given titles. GOL is a reliable source, and they themselves published such stats from developers who shared them. And there it's way not as clear that it matches the global stats. The summary from the linked article:

Combining the above information, I would estimate the total number of Linux gamers at 1.6 - 2 million not counting SteamOS in BPM.
Based on these data, the average share of Linux sales is (3.2 +/- 0.4)%. The median is 2.7%.
All in all, looking at these numbers, Linux gaming has undergone an impressive growth over the last years, it's anything but stagnating.

He also explains there why Steam survey itself isn't a good measurment. To summarize, I never disputed that Linux market is still relatively small in comparison to monstrous Windows market. However I disagree that it's insufficient to actually release games for it. It is already sufficient and it's growing and studios which regularly participate in it agree. They actually directly contribute to its growth.

Regarding convincing, I already explained above. I'm not interested in convincing CDPR about anything, because they don't seem to express any interest in that themselves. As I said, convincing is only applicable to those who communicate, not to those who stonewall any attempts at dialog.
 
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Maelcom404;n7059390 said:
We start with like 2,3% using linux, that's already really small.
Then only like barely 1% would "maybe" want this game.
Now, how many of those 1% would really buy that game?

That's easy. Unlike Windows users, Linux users are more interested in voting with their wallets because Linux gaming market needs more push. I.e. Linux users on average are more eagerly supporting developers whom they like than Windows users. It was pointed out by multiple studios in the past (such as inXile, Obsidian and others who use crowdfunding). If you think CDPR aren't sure on that point, they can as well use crowdfunding to measure demand. Nothing stops them. I.e. let them specifically for example crowdfund Linux development of CP2077.

Maelcom404;n7059390 said:
It's not a mindset blocker, it's just that no one use Linux, nada, zero, no one.

False, but I see no point in repeating myself. See above.

Maelcom404;n7059390 said:
But, people looking for games mostly aim for Windows, just because it's the common game platform and it's easier for everyone, kind of a standard.
Why do you think you have barely any games on Mac?

Mostly doesn't mean all. Above you said no one is using Linux, which was wrong. MacOS is different today. Multiple developers pointed out in the recent days, that Apple simply don't care about PC gaming. They are focused on mobile. So their PC hardware is simply underpowered, and their software stack is in the constant bit rot (they don't even support latest OpenGL still) and it can't even handle VR which is the new hot thing today (well, it's nowhere new, but interest in it is revived today). I.e. in PC gaming scene MacOS is going downhill simply because Apple doesn't care about it while having too much control over it at the same time. Linux on the other hand is progressing well, improving the technology. In fact, quite a number of Linux gamers are MacOS refugees, who got fed up by the stagnant software stack and total disregard towards them by Apple. So situations aren't comparable.

Maelcom404;n7059390 said:
Get windows and accept the reality.

No, thanks. I have enough games from studios which care about Linux gaming. Didn't even get through my backlog yet. Besides, you should get the point of expressing demand by Linux users for under-represented Linux gaming market. Then you'll drop proposing this "install Windows" idea. In Linux users' slang it's called "No Tux - no bucks". I just call it - vote with your wallet.
 
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Gilrond-i-Virdan;n7055630 said:
Web browsers usage is not helpful, because most of those people aren't gamers.
​So in other words CDPR could expect less then a 3% increase in sales?

​OK, I'll give you that it's possible the extra sales on Linux might, maybe, pay for itself. Is it worthwhile to add say 5-10% to the game development cycle in order to break even?
 
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Suhiira;n7065620 said:
​So in other words CDPR could expect less then a 3% increase in sales?

I suppose CDPR have access to GOG, which can give them actual numbers for multiple games which sell Linux versions, especially ones that came out for Linux at launch. GOG has a good variety, so they can analyze it well. Unfortunately, those numbers aren't public, so I can't evaluate what they are.

Suhiira;n7065620 said:
​OK, I'll give you that it's possible the extra sales on Linux might, maybe, pay for itself. Is it worthwhile to add say 5-10% to the game development cycle in order to break even?

Those who release today for Linux answer yes to that. Besides breaking even, they see value in expanding Linux gaming market and reducing dependency on MS control. But CDPR's ties to MS which were mentioned above by Sard might have a negative impact on such kind of preference.
 
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Gilrond-i-Virdan;n7066280 said:
I suppose CDPR have access to GOG, which can give them actual numbers for multiple games which sell Linux versions, especially ones that came out for Linux at launch. GOG has a good variety, so they can analyze it well. Unfortunately, those numbers aren't public, so I can't evaluate what they are.

No. What she means is, if the browser numbers for Linux don't represent Linux gamers, and given that Linux gamers do use their browsers, the subset of Linux gamers must be less than the set of overall Linux users.

In other words, there are less people on Linux, gaming, than browse with Linux overall.

Gilrond-i-Virdan;n7066280 said:
Those who release today for Linux answer yes to that.

Those who release for Linux today might answer yes..but like CDPR did, they might also answer, "We did it once, not next time". You're putting words in their mouths to favour your argument.

Any ties CDPR has to MS, they had for Witcher 2, since W2 only came out on Windows, 360, Linux and Mac OS. Note that W3 only came out on the Big Three platforms this time 'round, though.
 
Sardukhar;n7070870 said:
In other words, there are less people on Linux, gaming, than browse with Linux overall.

Yes, but it doesn't clarify the percentage, since we don't know that ratio in comparison with Windows users. The only numbers like that should be available from stores like GOG and others. Or from developers which somehow collect them.

Sardukhar;n7070870 said:
..but like CDPR did, they might also answer, "We did it once, not next time". You're putting words in their mouths to favour your argument.

Unlike CDPR they actually talk, so no need to put words in their mouth. And they say they are interested in continuing supporting Linux.

Examples from publishers and developers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiHVaumwafE&t=17m12s
https://twitter.com/devolverdigital/...61147298050050
https://www.gamingonlinux.com/artic...velopment-studios-about-supporting-linux.7461

And so on.
 
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I don't get how indie devs like FWH and 11 Bit do Linux versions, but 300 plus people at CDPR can't. Maybe that MS and Sony pussy was too sweet to resist. We know they loooove MS and Sony.
 
A lot of it boils down to indie developers need every sale they can get.
It's not that CDPR can't do Linux, it's that it's not worth the effort needed for maybe 2% more sales (and probably less as anyone that runs Linux and REALLY wants to play AAA games will have a dual boot setup).
 
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