Playing Classic RPGs

[volsung]

If you've never played Planescape: Torment, this is the time to buy it. I think it's one of the best games ever made, and a lot of the folks here agree with me. Right, Volsung, Pangaea, 227, Dearg Rudhari, Bloth?

Damn right! I already have a disc version of Planescape: Torment but I'm considering buying the GOG "backup"

Yeah, I didn't love NVN1. It was the awesomeness of Torment that I wanted your agreement with; the other games were mentioned because they were also on sale.

Back then in 2002 I felt Neverwinter Nights was below my expectations, especially since I was expecting a 3D Baldur's Gate. It's probably OK or above average for today's standards.

Nonetheless, this is a great chance to get BG + BG2 + PS:T, and for those who like tactical "hack and slash", add Icewind Dale.

@Pangea,

Don't worry about someone saying someone's name from BG2. That's irrelevant. About as much as saying Azar Javed is the "bad" guy from The Witcher

 

[Pangaea666]

Thanks, that's reassuring Volsung

Fantastic offer from GOG, think it's even better than last time when I bought every 9 titles. Not touched most of them since But BG and PST are well worth the money alone. The amount of hours I've put into PST and BG1... best not to think about it

Wish they could put Deus Ex on 65% off, and a few other titles I want. Hopefully they'll be on 50% off at some point. Patience is a virtue and all that.

 

[mrowakus]

For those of you who've never played some of the classic RPG's, GOG.com is having a huge sale on D&D-based games this weekend. Planescape: Torment, Baldur's Gate, and Neverwinter Nights are all on sale, so now's the time to add to your collection.

If you've never played Planescape: Torment, this is the time to buy it. I think it's one of the best games ever made, and a lot of the folks here agree with me. Right, Volsung, Pangaea, 227, Dearg Rudhari, Bloth?

While I love the game like every other guy here (finished 8 times, I know most dialogue almost by heart in Polish and English version), I have to say that it did have its weak moments and gameplay problems:

- imbalance of classes: mages were favourized like hell
- imbalance of stats: Wis, Int, Cha were most useful; Str, Dex and Con were almost useless.
- too few meaningful stats/abilities
- general derpness towards the end of the game - the game about dialogues and investigation turned into grindfest in a very poor combat system with very weak mechanics. Fights were not difficult, but they felt easy, tiresome and pointless.
- did I mention very poor combat system with broken mechanics?

Still Planescape: Torment is a great example that not only C&C make an RPG. This game is so rich in content: adventures, secrets, puzzles, mystery and some quality writing that lots of its shorcomings can be forgiven (though not forgotten).

 

[mrowakus]

Haven't played BG2 yet, but unfortunately I know who to hate now... Have seen that name before and tried to forget it. Why do people do that???

Do what?

I'm not going straight to BG2. I want to properly finish BG1 first - albeit in the BG2 engine via Tutu.

I fear you'll lose steam by the end of BG1. It's a much weaker game than BG2 - unless you use SCS mods do not help it much.

 

[Pangaea666]

I've no idea what you're on about tbh. Have already played through BG1, though not the expansion, which is why I want to do it again to take that character into BG2. I absolutely loved BG1. Thought the story was fantasic, and there is a good mix between combat and story.

The game is hard enough as it is, btw, I'm not touching SCS in a million years!

I'm just getting the impression you don't happen to like BG1 and prefer BG2 instead. Fair enough, but that's not to say BG1 is a boring slogfest. It's a fantastic game with lots of interesting characters, and lots of exploration. Also like that we don't fight super-foes all the time, and are relatively weak. Maybe BG2 will be even better, I don't know that yet, but I have problems with you portraying BG1 as a some sort of a stinker - when it is one of the best games to ever be made.

Oh, and I meant spoiling things. That name is perhaps not the biggest spoil in the world, but it's still frustrating when things like that happen.

To the above post on Planescape, I agree with most of that, but the unbalancing of stats is a little unfair really. Yes, strength and dexterity isn't really important, but it's kind of the inverse of just about any other RPG out there, where intelligence, wisdom and charisma are dump stats, depending on what class you are. PST is different here, so I see it more as a strength. Didn't find the end sluggish and such either, thought it was really good. But the game does have weaknesses in its combat system, that's for sure. But then we don't play the game for combat anyway.

 

[mrowakus]

I've no idea what you're on about tbh. Have already played through BG1, though not the expansion, which is why I want to do it again to take that character into BG2. I absolutely loved BG1. Thought the story was fantasic, and there is a good mix between combat and story.

The game is hard enough as it is, btw, I'm not touching SCS in a million years!

I'm just getting the impression you don't happen to like BG1 and prefer BG2 instead. Fair enough, but that's not to say BG1 is a boring slogfest. It's a fantastic game with lots of interesting characters, and lots of exploration. Also like that we don't fight super-foes all the time, and are relatively weak. Maybe BG2 will be even better, I don't know that yet, but I have problems with you portraying BG1 as a some sort of a stinker - when it is one of the best games to ever be made.

Let's say that's it's vastly overrated. The characters you mention are cardboards without any personality, the story is pretty standard "chosen one" nonsense, it's quite linear and nowhere near as good as many RPGs preceding it. Now BG2 is another pair of trausers altogether.

BG1 still can be enjoyed - no questions there. The thing is, if you really finished it only once, without bothering with expansion it's odds on it wasn't as good as you described. And since you know all the plot, and the character progression in BG1 is not that important, I don't see the reason why you should bother with it again (and lose steam, and never play BG2).

To the above post on Planescape, I agree with most of that, but the unbalancing of stats is a little unfair really. Yes, strength and dexterity isn't really important, but it's kind of the inverse of just about any other RPG out there, where intelligence, wisdom and charisma are dump stats, depending on what class you are. PST is different here, so I see it more as a strength.

No matter the reason, it's still a weakness. In other words, there's no excuse. It's still a good game - true. But it's good despite it's faults, not because of the things I mentioned. I don't see mere "difference" as a strength. It's merely turning over the hourglass.

Didn't find the end sluggish and such either, thought it was really good.

I didn't say it was sluggish, but there were huge parts that felt rushed when compared to the rest of the game - the fights in Curst were the most notable example.

But the game does have weaknesses in its combat system, that's for sure. But then we don't play the game for combat anyway.

So why it is there then to begin with? Again it is a considerable weakness. The game could have been better with a good combat system - even tell a better story with one. Hell if they removed combat altogether and created alternative quests/events in its place that could have worked better. As it is, huge segments of the game are visibly lacking. It's still excellent, but it fails to fulfill some of its promises.

One more thing - since you appear to have a beef with me. I am critical - true. But it only means I take the good with the bad and see what things are without the taint of rabid hatered nor rose-tinted glasses. I judge things for what they are and accept them for what they are. I think it is important to know why you enjoy certain things and what they represent by themselves. Otherwise one might get some funny notions that e.g. Mass Effect is art just because he enjoys it.

 

[Pangaea666]

Let's say that's it's vastly overrated. The characters you mention are cardboards without any personality, the story is pretty standard "chosen one" nonsense, it's quite linear and nowhere near as good as many RPGs preceding it. Now BG2 is another pair of trausers altogether.

BG1 still can be enjoyed - no questions there. The thing is, if you really finished it only once, without bothering with expansion it's odds on it wasn't as good as you described. And since you know all the plot, and the character progression in BG1 is not that important, I don't see the reason why you should bother with it again (and lose steam, and never play BG2).

I can't compare with BG2, so I can't counter that argument. But on its own I think BG1 is an excellent game, and I've had great fun with it both in my first playthrough (when I learned how to play it) and now in my 3rd. Well, sort of third. Have finished it once, then took one character well into the city, then this one, which I intend to take through to BG2 as well - hoping I've made a decent choice with an Illusionist/Thief.

One of the things I really like about the game is actually that it isn't quite so much "one do-gooder to fight the ultimate evil and save the world". Yeah, maybe that's what it will sort of wind up with in BG2, I don't know yet, but in BG1 it's a more small-scale affair, at least for the majority of the game. I quite simply like it a lot, and look forward to going back to playing it. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Naturally, when I get there, maybe I'll agree with you BG2 is a better game and it shames BG1 in comparison. But on its own I think BG1 is a very good game.

I didn't say it was sluggish, but there were huge parts that felt rushed when compared to the rest of the game - the fights in Curst were the most notable example.

That I agree with. It didn't feel quite as perfect and thought out as earlier in the game - quite possibly due to impending deadlines. Still liked the end of the game as well, but with so much battle at that part, the poor combat system hurt the experience a little. Remember some of the developers talked about that in the the 1-hour podcast that was posted by someone somewhere in this forum some weeks back. Funnily enough, they sort of made a hint there about Project Eternity, as they said they would like to work with each other again.

One more thing - since you appear to have a beef with me. I am critical - true. But it only means I take the good with the bad and see what things are without the taint of rabid hatered nor rose-tinted glasses. I judge things for what they are and accept them for what they are. I think it is important to know why you enjoy certain things and what they represent by themselves. Otherwise one might get some funny notions that e.g. Mass Effect is art just because he enjoys it.

I don't have a beef with you, but wanted to counter your view that BG1 isn't such a good game, which you hint at by saying I'll be out of steam by the end of it and so forth. I also want to try out the expansion, to see if I can somehow survive Durlag's Tower and such, before taking my guy into BG2. It just wouldn't be the same to start a serious save in BG2 with a character that didn't complete BG1.

I do think you are a bit overly critical of such great titles as PST and BG1, but I see your points and ultimately don't think we really disagree that much. It's more about degree and how it's been conveyed, rather than black/white disagreement.

 

[volsung]

OK, I just bought Planescape: Torment from GOG, even though I already have a disc version and already know the game relatively well.

If for some strange reason any of you doesn't have the game yet, then GO and GET IT! And if you, like me, already owns it, then BUY IT AGAIN!

 

[Corylea.723]

OK, I just bought Planescape: Torment from GOG, even though I already have a disc version and already know the game relatively well.

If for some strange reason any of you doesn't have the game yet, then GO and GET IT! And if you, like me, already owns it, then BUY IT AGAIN!

*smile* I just love your devotion to classic RPG's in general and Planescape: Torment in particular. Thanks for the grace note you add to the forum.

 

[Chewin3]

Okay, with studies and work off my shoulders, I can finally continue with this game! I haven't had an opportunity to just sit down and play in peace for weeks! About time I say!

Anyone know how to recruit that girl with the tail (forgot name)? She looks to be important, or is that for later events?

 

[Corylea.723]

Okay, with studies and work off my shoulders, I can finally continue with this game! I haven't had an opportunity to just sit down and play in peace for weeks! About time I say!

Yay!

Anyone know how to recruit that girl with the tail (forgot name)? She looks to be important, or is that for later events?

You're right, she IS important. But recruiting her will take care of itself later. For now, good for you for noticing.

 

[Chewin3]

Ah, jolly good then! And it wasn't really that hard figuring out, since she has her own NPC profile in the Journal along with all the other followers

 

[Corylea.723]

And it wasn't really that hard figuring out, since she has her own NPC profile in the Journal along with all the other followers

I've been answering newbie questions about TW1 here on the forum for more than four years now, and you'd be AMAZED at what players fail to notice. Really, the game can smack you between the eyes, can say GO DO THIS NOW, and some players will fail to go and do that, then be surprised that things aren't working out.

So yeah, good for you, for noticing.

 

[wichat]

I'm gonna get Riddick from GOG and I wish to buy one game more so I ask advice:

BG's original saga or BD's 2 complete?

 

[volsung]

I'm gonna get Riddick from GOG and I wish to buy one game more so I ask advice:

BG's original saga or BD's 2 complete?

Why not both? Don't you want to play the whole saga? I think the real gems of GOG are its traditional RPG's, like all Infinity Engine games, Arcanum, Fallout, and so on.

But if your mind is really set on buying Riddick and one Baldur's Gate, then get the second one. The first is good for what it is and what it means, but Baldur's Gate II is the point of reference for every other computer RPG out there. It has everything that makes a traditional computer RPG great.

@Corylea,

Thank you! The flowers were delicious wonderful!

 

[Pangaea666]

Speaking of Baldur's Gate 1, I've decided to skidaddle over to Durlag's Tower for the first time. A battle just crapped ALL over me, but it's mostly been fun. Considering the trouble I'm already in, further down must be utter hell and back.

 

[Corylea.723]

Speaking of Baldur's Gate 1, I've decided to skidaddle over to Durlag's Tower for the first time. A battle just crapped ALL over me, but it's mostly been fun. Considering the trouble I'm already in, further down must be utter hell and back.

I stuck my nose into Durlag's Tower once ... and had it sliced off for my pains. I think you must need to do it VERY late in the game.

 

[Pangaea666]

I stuck my nose into Durlag's Tower once ... and had it sliced off for my pains. I think you must need to do it VERY late in the game.

It is quite late so thankfully my party is well-levelled, from 6 to 8. But my is it a tough slog. Above ground wasn't so bad, but beneath it's proper hell. An analogy there perhaps. Will give it another go as I'm about to drop down one floor. Just a rather big hurdle before doing that... As long as I can take down stuff from range with a decoy flying about, battles usually go okay. But when hit with magic en masse I'm always unsure what to do to counter this or get through that.

For the first time I have properly enjoyed to diddle around and disarm traps though. Ironically, probably because there are so very many of them, so inching forward doesn't feel like a waste of time like in earlier dungeons that only have the odd trap here and there.

Will have another go at it, and prepare some summoning spells. Think that's the only way to deal with these things. Going toe-to-toe is suicide.

If you have a well-established party, I think you should go back and have a go at it It's pretty fun for the most part. Though there is a decent chance I'll just scream in frustration further down I guess

Btw, can I somehow remove the XP cap now and it would still work? There is still lots to do in Chapter 5 in BG, so will probably quite soon get close to the cap. Might as well run over and take it into BG2 I guess - unless that is seen as cheating?

Edit...

YEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!

Spoiler

Finally got those pesky wardens. They were tough as nails! Thankfully a hasted and fire protected berserk Minsc did the trick, with many of the others sending fireballs his way when they had time and didn't have to run away from death. That, and lots and lots of monster and undead summoning, who for some reason turned on me a lot of the time. In between fighting each other, they got some hits in though, while our acid and fire arrows must have done some damage too, plus the odd frost wand hit and so forth.

Just glad I got that one out of the way. Probably much harder fights further down, but this was quite a challenge.

One thing's for sure: Baldur's Gate is not a game you breeze through on the first try. But it does give another sense of accomplishment when you succeed, unlike in most modern games.

Please don't tell me this was just a cakewalk compared to the next ones!

 

[Pangaea666]

Struggling my way through Durlag's Tower, at the third level now (lovely 'welcome' I must say) and XP is racking up rather quickly. Between 140,000 and 145,000 now, and the cap is at only 161,000. I am a completionist so have done every kind of mission there is, or near enough (always bound to miss a few), and there is still lots to play as I'm still in chapter 5. I don't at all fancy the thought of XP stopping to count soon, considering I'm still going through all the work of doing side quests and main quests.

Read somewhere yesterday that there is between 1.5 and 2 million XP in BG1, so 7-split in my party (PC is multiclassed, rest are pure), that will be roughly 200,000 to 250,000 XP each. This means a few characters will level up one more level by the end of the game.

Would it be considered cheating if I remove the experience cap?

Illusionist/Thief PC and Imoen might go up another level as level 11 is 220,000 XP (thieves need much less XP apparently)
Rangers Kivan and Minsc won't go up as level 9 is 300,000 XP
Mage Dynaheir probably won't go up as level 10 is 250,000 XP
Cleric Branwen might go up as level 9 is 225,000 XP

This also means I'll start BG2 with more XP and possibly one thief level, which will make it marginally easier I suppose.

 

[cyberarmy.603]

Just dont touch the cap IMO, you are already powerful at BG2s start if you played ToTSC. Removing the cap makes you faceroll some of the starting content. And if you play BG2 with ToB installed( and you should play like this)there wont be any cap and you become a demi-god(both literally and figuratively) at near end of BG2s campaign.