Playing Classic RPGs

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Oh yeah Throne of Bhaal is a great journey. It is a power fantasy but it comes out alright. The bhaalspawn battles are all very intense and force you to really make the most out of the system.

I remember one playthrough going through a bunch of puny human guards with Crom Faeyr in one hand, Flail of Ages in the other, gibbing them with a flick of my wrist as I walk casually through the mob. Wouldn't expect less from a son of Bhaal, right?
 
For a thoasand years Sosaria had been under the rule of one Mondain, the most foul and evil wizard to step foot in the universe. The Lords and peoples wept and bled on the crumbled and barren earth for 10 centuries. Many had tried to end his rule, to stop the tryanny, but to no avail. He was far too powerful for the likes of anyone on this earth, or those of others. All seemed lost.

But they didn't count on one man--errr---Bobbit.

The task laid upon my small Bobbit shoulders was simple enough. I was to stop the evil Mondain's rule. A typical quest you say, one that we have seen before, heard, read, etc. But my friends, this was no ordinary wizard, nor was this an ordianry quest. For you see, during his thoasand year rule Mondain had grown to remarkable levels of power. Not even I could stop him. If only I had arrivd a thoasand years earlier...

Throughout the lands great Kings kept in there possession a precious gem or great importance. Four gems are are spread accross the land waiting to be given to those who can prove themselves worthy by compelteing a quest. These gems are the key to Mondains demise and *drum roll* a time machine!

On my quest for the gems Orcs, Liches, Gelantinus Cubes, Balrogs and bats fell to my mighty bow and arrow as I scoured the dungeons. On the surface, Dragon Turles and Pirate ships grew to fear me as I fried them with my hover car I purchaed from the local blacksmith. Yes. A hover car equipped with a laser from the local blacksmith.

But it was not enough to conquer the evils of this world alone. Mondain was powerful, powerful enough for his influences to spread across the galaxy. It was time to purchase a Space Shuttle from the local Blacksmith....and yet the best weapons for dungeons remained the bow and arrow.

I battled enemy ships in the empty void of space eventually becoming a Space Ace, a terror to the vile followers of Mondain. It was now time to rescue a princess. IN every castle a King has kept a princess in a dungeon. Why? I cannot say, but I would like to think there is a prophecy in which the Mondians undoing will come about from a hero who...rescues one.....or something....I stopped questioning the game after I bought my space ship becuase its just freaking awesome.

Instead of a kiss or her hand in marriage I recieved vague directions to the fabled time machine (I suppose she is just not into Bobbits). To the North West she said. High and low I searched. losing hope I came across a sign that told me to go east. Desperate I did so and not 3 steps later there it was.

Into the to time machine I went, stepping out straight into the foul wizards lair. THe fight was long and hilarious. Mondain was no stranger to the hit and run tactic but at last he fell to my might bow and arrow. All that remained was destrying the glowing gem in the midle of the room for it was the source of his immortailty. With steady arm I drew my last arrow and let one sail into the gem, shattering it to pieces. All was saved! Mondain was no more.

Ultima: The First Age of Darkness is freaking awesome.
 
Well, it´s been a long time since I last posted here. Haven´t had much time to play a lot lately, but I finally got to finish Watcher´s Keep in ToB.
What an awesome dungeon. Each level is simply perfect!

Regarding the final battle, that´s a tough SoB... That disease he gives you is truly a pain in the ass.

My tactic to bring him down was to tank him and his summons with an Elemental Prince summoned by my sweet Jaheira, and then with a Deva summoned by Anomen. While my summons held the line, Imoen stripped him of his defenses and then I sent my melee guys to chop him down with Greater Whirlwinds. Once the big guy was down, the Mariliths weren´t much of a problem.
All in all, fun fight! The Demonknight of Durlag´s Tower still has the trophy for being the hardest fight for me up until now, though.

Now I´m continuing with the main story. I´ve just defeated Yaga-Shura, so I´ll see what´s next!
 
I am surprised at how several of you guys can tolerate Anomen. He's probably my least favorite character of all BG. Jaheira is OK story wise in the first BG, but in BGII she is way too preachy and seems like never got over Khalid. Objectively speaking, she's not that great of a character. I think of her like one of those annoying, preachy vegetarians (not saying vegetarians are all preachy, just some of them :)). Anomen is simply the most stuck up, self centered, self righteous son of a bitch. It is just his personality, it has nothing to do with his class or affiliation. Look at Keldorn, for instance: a really smooth, cool and experienced goody two shoes knight.

Last time I played BGII, my party consisted of Korgan, Edwin, Viconia, Jan and Haer'Dalis (just there to fill the last spot). My PC was a chaotic neutral fighter/thief. I know the entire BG series sort of pushes you to play "good", but the "evil" characters are so much more fun and interesting.

About tough battles, in my opinion the hardest battle from all the series is that demon in the basement of a house in Ulgoth's Beard. The one that concludes the Balduran quest line.
 
Well, yeah, Anomen´s personality is a pain in the ass, but I can put up with him. And with my own character being good, there really isn´t much of a choice... if you want a cleric you´re stuck with Anomen (another option would be Aerie, and although I liked her she is kind of meh...).

Regarding Jaheira, I really liked her personality (that´s why I went on with her romance). Her moving on after Khalid and the emotional conflict she´s in is very well written IMO.

And about the demon you mention @.Volsung., for me it was potentially the hardest fight, yeah. But in an early try I threw a bunch of Cloudkills at it, hoping to kill it and its acolytes together, and he died almost instantly. I´m quite sure it was a bug, but well... it ended up being quite an easy fight for me.
 
Yeah BG does have some flaws in that some tough battles can be won using lucky combinations. I am sure many of these cheesy wins are documented. In BG2, for instance, you can abuse spike traps to the point that you can kill virtually anything with them... provided you are able to set them up first.

Even Demogorgon succumbs to spike traps. Liches, dragons, everything.

One time in Suldanessellar I approached this mage without him noticing, placed a trap right under his nose, and once he saw me he became hostile. Not a second later...*BOOM*, body parts splattered everywhere :p

After you've played the series a few times, cheesy kills can be a lot of fun! But for bosses they also take away the tactical fun factor. Such great games!
 
Well Dragonfall will take a while so I'll write down my thoughts on the original campaign of SRR.

Shadowrun Returns: Dead Man's Switch (1.2.5)

Running the shadows, pressing for some nuyen, destabilizing megacorps and hacking into the matrix. What more could you ask for? Well, perhaps a little more variability and choice.

SRR - DMS is the first Shadowrun videogame in a long time (pretending that one shooter never existed) and I have to say: I do like it. It does a fine job at bringing the science fantasy tabletop to life if we overlook a few rough edges. Let's get it over with: apart from creating our own character, there isn't much to choose from. This shouldn't really detract any potential players. As I said in a different post, Japanese "RPG's" have done this for ages and still are called that. Well, at least SRR gives you dialogue choices.

The setting
Shadowrun is usually known as the other major cyberpunk RPG setting (the first being CyberPunk). After reading a bunch in the wiki, however, I have come to the conclusion that SR is, more than cyberpunk, a projection of a high fantasy setting into the future. In other words, a futurization of a fantasy setting very much like Dungeons and Dragons. That is, if said future includes the usual cyberpunk tropes: oppressive megacorporations, advanced electronics, semi police state operations, cybernetic augmentations and transhumanism. To that, already complex layer, add some typical fantasy tropes: elves, dwarves and dragons, mages and shamans, racial segregation, etc. But now put it all together and you can create characters like a katana wielding dwarf with cybernetic arms or a nimble, smart "thief" who disables traps and security system by hacking computer systems. All in all, pretty interesting.

Shadowrun is extremely similar to Gibson's Neuromancer. In fact, many elements are "borrowed" from it: new yens, street samurais, the matrix, decks, and even the name Armitage. Gibson doesn't exactly like Shadowrun, but I think it's fun. It can be a little over the top, and a little bloated, but the plethora of elements could simply mean a good game master can create a unique adventure, not necessarily focusing on all the cliches (just a few).

SRR is set around the year 2054, which is equivalent to Shadowrun version 4 i think. This means that there are still traditional deckers who jack into the matrix using good ol' decks, while in subsequent versions the matrix is wireless and deckers have become hackers. However technomancers are mentioned in Dead Man's Switch, which I believe is a newer element in the recent versions of the standard. Oh well.

One thing I don't fully agree with in both Shadowrun and Neuromancer and pretty much every other cyberpunk thing out there (here's hoping CP77 is different) is the Tron-like conception of a global computer network. Assuming brain computer interfaces are sufficiently developed and a person can interact electrically with digital devices, why waste bandwidth on 3D graphics? Currently a major problem with measuring live brain activity is that data generated by neuron populations is so massive that it cannot be captured by electronic devices on real time. If I were to establish a bridge between a device and the brain, I would optimize my data usage for the important stuff, not 3D renditions of programs. However, according to Neuromancer, the matrix was also heavily used for other purposes, including education. I can also imagine a person who literally plugs himself into the computer would need some sort of interface, and a 3D-like world is already familiar to us. This might help reduce the cognitive dissonance or however you want to call it. What I think we should improve is the 1980's arcade mentality. Essentially, cyberpunk is retro futurism. I would like to see an updated or revised futuristic setting, guided by people with knowledge of how things work. Gibson himself barely knew anything about computers when he wrote his seminal work.

Game system
Character creation is simplistic and straight forward: gender, race, archetype (or no archetype), portrait, basic appearance and skill point distribution. The character creation system is classless: archetypes (decker, street samurai, mage, shaman, rigger, ...) distribute points for you initially, but you can also assign them however you want. I for instance made a guy with high quickness and ranged combat, specializing in assault rifles, and lots of intelligence and decking. Third skill was charisma, which opens up more conversation options. I also assigned a few points in "body" (general constitution), biotech (benefit from medkits).

Charisma is needed for shamans to summon spirits but it's also useful to any character who likes deeper conversation control. Every two points you can choose an etiquette (shadowrunner, security, corporate, academic, etc.) which opens up new conversation options, meaning you might be able to solve things through dialogue if you have such options (i.e. knowledge) available. A good shadowrunner might realize the real risk of a run and demand compensation, and someone who is knowledgeable of the corporate world might speculate on how much this stolen information will cost tomorrow, and get a better price. A security etiquette might help you bluff past a guarded entrance, and so on.

Gameplay
SRR is a typical top-down cRPG, where you click around and your character follows. You have a character sheet, a screen to distribute skill points, a sort of journal, and so on. Combat is standard modern turn-based, very similar to XCOM EU. No attacks of opportunity, all your guys move in the same turn (no initiative checks), and so on. It is all a lot of fun actually. I played DMS in normal difficulty and combat was pretty straight forward... almost too easy.

Combat is party based, and sometimes you will have preassigned companions. Other times, you will be able to hire shadowrunners, for a price of course.

You interact with the world via hotspots that show up when you get close to them with your character or mouse pointer. It's really not very different from mouse surfing on Infinity games, but there aren't nearly as many interactions.

There are some cool elements in the final areas however. You get multiple approaches to infiltrate some organization, including wearing their clothes and granting yourself a pass card by using a restricted computer. This one place felt very much like playing the original Fallout, and that's a GOOD thing.

Story & Narrative
This is one of the high points of the game. The writing in general is quite good, except for a few cliches here and there and a few embarrassing nerdgasmic lines, in the vein of "he's the most powerful of his kind" or "I was destined for great things since I was in diapers". The wording and the narrative approach are very well done, it's a good read and it will keep you hooked. The story will also take you across Seattle and some nearby suburbs, including Redmond and Snohomish county. i was excited about visiting Pike Place Market but you can only see the entrance and the recognizable sign, that's it.

The story is overall a typical cyberpunkish tale of corporate infiltration and so on, with a few magical elements and a bit of mysticism towards the end. I felt the campaign might as well have existed without the need for elves, dwarves or any other fantasy cliche, just pure old corporate wars in the dark, oppressive human future. I think the twist of having multiple races and the general balance of technology vs magic was underused. But in such an overloaded setting, it's hard to use it all. I liked the campaign very much, but I don't think anything would have been different if i had chosen a different race or skill set. One thing is clear though: there is lots of decking, and I sure was happy i went for a decker-type.

It seems to me the writing decayed a bit towards the end, but the inclusion of some Shadowrun lore and characters certainly spiced things up.

Graphics and sound
Nice 2.5D look, very slick and clean looking. Very clean interface. Dialogue boxes could be larger. The music is kind of good actually, especially during matrix runs. The game is text intensive, and there is no voice acting whatsoever. I didn't mind this at all, but be warned.

Final thoughts
Some reviewers complained about the modular feel of the game: the game obviously looks like it was built using a campaign editor, and perhaps that is one of its strong suits. Very much like what NWN was to D&D, SRR is an implementation of Shadowrun and there might be a bunch of user made adventures coming up soon.

I got this for $14.99 plus another $14.99 for the first expansion, Dragonfall from the Humble Store (DRM-free Win/Mac/Linux). Normally the base game is $19.99, but if you can wait there should be a campaign pack coming out soon which includes both Dead Man's Switch and Dragonfall for $24.99. Honestly, I didn't mind paying 5 dollars more. I think it's great Harebrained Schemes made this cool cRPG and managed to resolve that whole M$ bullshit, when we thought there would be no DRM free or Linux versions.

I've been playing a few hours of Dragonfall and... hell yeah. Everything DMS needed is here :) Lots of choices, a little more mysticism and relevance of fantasy elements, lots of sidequests, and in general more Shadowrun lore. I'll comment on Dragonfall when I'm finished, if anyone's interested.
 
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Well, I´ve finally managed to finish the Baldur´s Gate saga. It was a hell of a ride!

About ToB, I really enjoyed it! I agree with @Glaroug, I also found the battles very exciting, and IMO the story provides a satisfying end to the Bhaalspawns´ story. The final battle feels epic as it should, even though there are more difficult battles in the game.
The only battle that disappointed me a bit was
Balthazar.

After playing these games, I actually understand a little more the disappointment people feel with modern Bioware!

Next in my cRPG list are Planescape: Torment and Fallout 1 & 2. However, I´ll take a break from cRPGs for the time being, as they are very time-consuming...
I´ll report back when I start with P:T!
 
Great exhaustive review Volsung, i'm putting this on my list, I was unsure before because i'd heard mixed opinions. Cheers.

Thanks. The game follows a very strict narrative line (some people call it linear) but it has interactive points based on dialogue and problem solving approaches. I really don't know what people expect nowadays from "RPG's", but the game has very strong motivations, plot and setting. The second campaign improves a lot on the decision making, reactivity and branching side stories.
@gedierond
Planescape: Torment is well liked in this thread, and I believe we talked extensively about it over a year ago. As good as they are, you should know PS:T and the first Fallout are not nearly as long as Baldur's Gate II, so maybe you can start sometime soon. I would play PS:T first, while your AD&D knowledge is still fresh. That game includes a lot of somewhat obscure references.
 
Planescape Torment is aaaaaawwwwwweeeeeesssssooooooommmmmeeeeeeee.

Hope you have Fallout 1 & 2 already, because if not you and I may be waiting a while before Bethesda's legal rights mess after grabbing the Fallout IP is sorted and its sold again.

Thanks fo rthe excellent review Volsung, I am very glad to hear its a great game and much better than your initial android impressions :D The idea of a kata weilding dwarf with cybernetic arms is too good to pass as a playable character. It must be so :yes
 
@gedierond
Planescape: Torment is well liked in this thread, and I believe we talked extensively about it over a year ago. As good as they are, you should know PS:T and the first Fallout are not nearly as long as Baldur's Gate II, so maybe you can start sometime soon. I would play PS:T first, while your AD&D knowledge is still fresh. That game includes a lot of somewhat obscure references.

Ok, thanks for the advice! I´ll take it into account!

Hope you have Fallout 1 & 2 already, because if not you and I may be waiting a while before Bethesda's legal rights mess after grabbing the Fallout IP is sorted and its sold again.

Yeah, I was lucky enough to get them both during the GoG giveaway :D
 
Shadowrun Returns: Dragonfall

What to say about this game? We can all agree Dead Man's Switch is not in the same league as the classic RPG's we remember, but it does have some airs of Fallout and other classics at times. What it lacks is variability, reactivity, interactivity, staples of the genre. But then Harebrained Schemes releases the first, and yes, notice it is the first (more to come) expansion, taking us from the dreary corporate landscape of Seattle to the gang infested streets of the anarchist, "flux state" of Berlin. And then what? Well, I'll keep it short and only refer to the differences. Dragonfall is longer, wider, deeper and in every possible way more impressive than DMS. Ironically, this expansion is more of a game than the first campaign. I just finished my first full playthrough and it took me a whopping 30 hours of gameplay, versus the 15 of DMS.

Dragonfall begins with a run in the shadows, where we are part of a team and surprise! Things don't go as expected. We find ourselves nominated to become the new lead of the team and inherit a fixer (a mission pimp ;)), a base and a whole neighborhood to defend. As missions become available in a variety of ways, and yes, there are MANY side missions doable in any order, we can choose to hire shadowrunners or take our team members with us for free. These team members have personalities of their own and will participate during runs, either providing insight, speaking up their mind in conversation or simply providing their skills (knowledge of biotech can, for instance, help you understand scientific information better).

The game revolves around finding the cause of death of a person close to our team, and slowly discovering an entire network of magic and technology leading up to a convoluted final encounter. Along the way, we will find ourselves in all sorts of missions, with much more variety than the first campaign. Some of the corporate runs offer multiple ways in, multiple conclusions, and of course multiple ways of dealing with events depending on our team's talents. For instance, during a run we are sent to clean up a mess left behind by another team, and we find one of the former shadowrunners is still alive. We are sent to kill him, but he offers valuables in exchange for his freedom. If we side with him and we're caught we might find ourselves in trouble, and if we don't we might pass on a really good offer. The good thing is we get karma (experience points) from all sorts of things, including choices made through dialog. Actually, combat doesn't yield karma. Anyway, by the endgame we will be playing some really long encounters that are actually quite fun and demanding in a tactical sense. Instead of simple and straightforward combat, we will have to activate and deactivate computer systems, hack turrets, defend locations, interrupt automated sequences, and so on. All within the turn-based encounter format.

One thing the game does very well in my opinion is the inclusion of Shadowrun lore into the mix. DMS was very light on that, and felt more like standard cyberpunk. But Dragonfall is Shadowrun alright, and is a good example of a story that can only be told in the strange Shadowrun setting. Magic and technology, metahumanity and racial oppression, ancient creatures commanding great corporate power, and so on. It does a fine job of introducing us into the history of this setting AND actually expanding the lore, with a series of events that I'm sure will impact the game in a way similar to how the Bhaalspawn saga added to the Forgotten Realms.

The base game mechanics are the same, but we have a LOT of interactivity points, and many of these points can be used differently depending on our character's and party's talents. For sure, you cannot experience everything in one run. Again, many areas reminded me of the original Fallouts.

This time I played in hard (or the equivalent) and while it was mostly straightforward, some encounters obliterated my team and required me to reload and rethink my approach. Especially towards the end, where positioning plays a big role as our team of 4 will be facing small crowds of heavily armed opponents, with firearms, magic and even machines.

Combat wise, there appear to be improvements. I only played the base campaign (DMS) until Dragonfall came out, so I was unaware of some early issues in gameplay mechanics. Very much like the newish XCOM: Enemy Unknown, SRR features turn based combat by teams. The entire team moves at each turn and each team member has action points usable in movement, item usage and attacks. Attacks are relatively varied and include several types of melee moves, several types of shooting (single bullet, burst, wide shot, headshot, AP penalty, etc.) and many, many types of offensive and defensive spells of three different schools. If unlocked, characters can enter overwatch, an element apparently missing from the early versions. Combat is in general not as complex as other turn based games, but neither is XCOM's and both have fun TB combat. Granted, combat is only part of what SRR has to offer. This time around, skills play a big role in how we can interact with the world around us.

All in all, the story arc was OK but the execution was excellent. Some of these runs were truly memorable, making you feel the excitement and adrenaline of a job well done. Many times I found myself taking my time to make a choice: this time choices are considerably different and offer multiple moral outcomes. Some choices might even be blocked, depending on our character's ability to choose that (either knowledge or skill). In general Dragonfall is a great cRPG, much, much better than Dead Man's Switch, and well worth playing for anyone interested in the setting. If I could change anything, it would be the somewhat simplistic character sheet and the very rudimentary inventory. Add inventory, journal, map and sheet like that of Infinity Engine games and you've got yourself a modern classic. Dragonfall really shows this engine and setting can create truly unique stories and really, really good games.

In the epilogue, one of the mystical characters (also present in DMS) mentions he has an urgent matter to attend to in South America, more specifically Macchu Picchu. I wonder if that is where the next expansion will take us?

Edit: added a bit about combat.
 
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Assuming brain computer interfaces are sufficiently developed and a person can interact electrically with digital devices, why waste bandwidth on 3D graphics? Currently a major problem with measuring live brain activity is that data generated by neuron populations is so massive that it cannot be captured by electronic devices on real time. If I were to establish a bridge between a device and the brain, I would optimize my data usage for the important stuff, not 3D renditions of programs. However, according to Neuromancer, the matrix was also heavily used for other purposes, including education. I can also imagine a person who literally plugs himself into the computer would need some sort of interface, and a 3D-like world is already familiar to us. This might help reduce the cognitive dissonance or however you want to call it.

Sounds like you're proposing a Brain Impulse Galvanoscope Record And Transfer doohicky, or "BIG RAT". Actually now I come to think of it... is this yourself at work?


Muchas gracias for the solid reviewing, I picked up DMS shortly after release, didn't expect much from it so wasn't disappointed, I agree it doesn't have any major failings, but for me - just to emphasise the following is purely subjective - the Shadowrun world is too convoluted, seemingly nothing nerdy left out to tickle all possible fancies, which results in thematic overload, and ultimately my detachment. Did they ever make the cyber implants and stuff actually have any effect? In the early release version I played most itemisation was utterly pointless, a bit scandalous for a cyberpunk game. But my biggest gripe, and I searched the DF review avidly for mention of a change, is absolutely no kind of overwatch or similar opportunity for the application of strategic thought, and those excellent unpredictable moments that arise in such games when the opponent falls into your prepared crossfire, or you likewise get your arse handed back for that risky & reckless advance. I'm afraid playing DMS just confirmed for me that I require that mechanic or something very much like it.

So the expansion is not going on my shopping list, though I'm very pleased to hear it's an improvement on the original, and I won't rule out picking it up sometime if the need arises.
 
Hmmm... I've read many positive reviews for the new Shadowrun. Still probably going to wait for a discount as I don't think the first one was worth my money.
 
I'm waiting to get both Planescape: Torment and Deus Ex once they're up for sale on GOG. I just hope that they'll still be enjoyable, and not feel too dated.
 
PS:T is essentially a book and it used 2D art that still holds up (just make sure you get a high resolution mod), so I don't think it should be an issue. Deus Ex... now that could be a problem. The gameplay was one of the game's strengths but that really hasn't aged well. Graphically, it's downright ugly these days, I'm afraid.
 
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