Playing Classic RPGs

[Corylea.723]

Congratulations, Pangaea! It's a loooong game, and it's quite an achievement that you finished.

The sad thing is, now that you've played TW1, Planescape: Torment, and BG 1 & 2, you've played the best there is.

Still, there are other fun games out there. What's next for you?

 

[Guest 2091327]

Thanks. It's been one hell of a ride

Not sure what to do next actually. Could go back to the Planescape game, as I have one at the end of the Hive or thereabouts. But it could be fun with something new too. Have some GOG games I've yet to play, but not sure which.

Fired up the first Gabriel Knight yesterday, but it looks so bloody ancient I'm not sure I can deal with it. Haven't played the Icewind Dales either, but I hear they are mostly combat games with little story, so not sure I will enjoy it as much as BG. Have also tried to start a game several times, but having to create 6 characters is a huge stumbling block. Then there are the indie games I bought recently, like Blackwell Bundle, Resonance and Gemini Rue.

Have already gone through To The Moon, which I highly recommend. Only about 5 hours, but it was a wonderful game/story.

Have Fallout 1 and 2 as well, but I may run into the same graphics issue there. Great games, I hear, but when the screen looks like blobs it may be a bit too much, even for me. Started Fallout 1 maybe a year ago, got into a fight with some rats (I think) and kind of gave up right there because I couldn't see what was what.

Maybe something like Arcanum or Deus Ex would be better?

Can of course go back to the safe and trusted the Witcher again, but I've played it so many times.

 

[Corylea.723]

Maybe Volsung can tell you what to play next. He seems to know ALL of the classic games, and your tastes seem to overlap to a large degree, so maybe he can tell you what's #4 on his personal hit parade.

 

[volsung]

Congrats on playing through the entire BG saga!

You should try Arcanum. It's a very unique game, but the combat is very awkward. Still, very interesting.

Fallout 1 is excellent, I don't really know what you mean by "blobs". You don't have to stretch the graphics or anything, if you have a widescreen monitor simply make either your monitor or video card render everything as is, 1:1, with black bars on the sides. I used the FIXT patch bundle for Fallout 1, and it enabled higher resolutions. I played in 1024x768, but I'd recommend 800x600. I played Fallout 2 like that and it was good enough, graphics wise.

If you insist on classic RPG's, you may want to try Betrayal at Krondor. If you feel like more Infinity Engine, you still have Icewind Dale left. It's basically a BG clone set in the north or Faerun, with many intense battles, and a more simplistic and less relevant storyline. Icewind Dale II is the only Infinity Engine game to implement D&D 3E rules, which makes things very different. Another 3E (3.5) game you might want to try is Neverwinter Nights.

Oh and since we're talking about isometric classics, there is another game made by the same people who made Arcanum. I'm talking about Temple of Elemental Evil. It's set in the classic D&D setting of Greyhawk, and it is as faithful an implementation of 3E D&D as you can get. It is even turn based, yes, REALLY turn based (not pause based).

Anyway, that should last you for a few months. Let's summarize:

Fallout 1 & 2
Icewind Dale
Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura
Temple of Elemental Evil
Betrayal at Krondor

EDIT: Corylea, you totally anticipated my post

 

[lycos]

The Bg2 endings....

Spoiler

There are three endings. 1) Mortal 2) Good god 3) Bad god
Good/Bad are decidend on various choices/conversations you make in the pocket plane

Fired up the first Gabriel Knight yesterday, but it looks so bloody ancient I'm not sure I can deal with it.

You could try GK2 (fmv) or GK3 (3rd person 3d) first to see if you like it before going back to GK1.

Deus Ex is just as ancient and the graphics have not aged well - even with the 'HD patch'. Still a very good game though.

The main drawbacks with F1 & F2 is the party AI is crap. All to often the NPCs forget you are in the way when they start shooting enemies. (Damn it Sulik!)

With ToEE - Get the circle of 8 patch. Dont ask - just do it.

Another option may be to try the Eschalon series (I think they have a demo version)

 

[Guest 2091327]

Congrats on playing through the entire BG saga!

You should try Arcanum. It's a very unique game, but the combat is very awkward. Still, very interesting.

Fallout 1 is excellent, I don't really know what you mean by "blobs". You don't have to stretch the graphics or anything, if you have a widescreen monitor simply make either your monitor or video card render everything as is, 1:1, with black bars on the sides. I used the FIXT patch bundle for Fallout 1, and it enabled higher resolutions. I played in 1024x768, but I'd recommend 800x600. I played Fallout 2 like that and it was good enough, graphics wise.

If you insist on classic RPG's, you may want to try Betrayal at Krondor. If you feel like more Infinity Engine, you still have Icewind Dale left. It's basically a BG clone set in the north or Faerun, with many intense battles, and a more simplistic and less relevant storyline. Icewind Dale II is the only Infinity Engine game to implement D&D 3E rules, which makes things very different. Another 3E (3.5) game you might want to try is Neverwinter Nights.

Oh and since we're talking about isometric classics, there is another game made by the same people who made Arcanum. I'm talking about Temple of Elemental Evil. It's set in the classic D&D setting of Greyhawk, and it is as faithful an implementation of 3E D&D as you can get. It is even turn based, yes, REALLY turn based (not pause based).

Anyway, that should last you for a few months. Let's summarize:

Fallout 1 & 2
Icewind Dale
Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura
Temple of Elemental Evil
Betrayal at Krondor

EDIT: Corylea, you totally anticipated my post

Excellent suggestions guys, and I actually have all these games

Not sure what to go to yet, think I need to read a bit more about them, and maybe install the lot and see what has the best feel (and look) to it. All probably have outdated graphics to an extent, so it's all about gameplay and story.

Started ToEE way back when I bought it (about a year+ ago), but didn't know what I was doing and we died pretty quickly. Installed Deus Ex yesterday too and fired it up, but as you say Lyc, it didn't look great. It's a classic, though, so I want to try it out properly at some point.

What are the main differences between the BG D&D rules and 3.5?

About Gabriel Knight. Isn't it best to play them chronologically, or doesn't it matter if I start with 2 or 3?

 

[lycos]

About Gabriel Knight. Isn't it best to play them chronologically, or doesn't it matter if I start with 2 or 3?

Gk 1-2-3 are seperate 'adventures', and you dont have to have played the prior ones - though a lot of the characters peronalities/motivations are introduced in earlier ones so you may be saying 'what is a shattenjager?' or 'what is this shiney medallion?' at first until you work it out through the current story.

Or you could wander through the 'Lets Play Gabriel Knight' on RPGCodex to get the idea. The "lets play" section is good as you get a (usually) humourous overview/walkthrough of the game. (Just stay far away from the GD forums when at codex).

If you you want to "go retro", pull out Might & Magic 7 (on gog) or Ultima 7 pt2 - Serpent Isle (also on gog).

 

[volsung]

What are the main differences between the BG D&D rules and 3.5?

I'm no expert, but I'll try to outline some obvious differences. My 3E is very rusty though.

First of all, "BG D&D" is AD&D 2.0. It features single classed characters, multi- and dual-classed characters, THAC0, negative armor class and class skills (pickpocketing, backstabbing, etc).

3E redefines everything and ALL characters are multiclass, meaning you can advance in any desired class each time you gain a level. This could generate a character like a level 7 paladin/level 2 cleric/level 1 fighter. Or a level 5 ranger/level 5 druid/level 2 thief.

There is no THAC0, but there is an attack bonus that works pretty much the same way. Armor class is now positive.

Apart from class skills, there are FEATS, of which you gain one every four levels (I believe). This means you might have a fighter who is an expert at lockpicking, for example. If you want to dual wield, you will probably want the feat Ambidexterity. Weapon proficiencies are also feats: for maces, staves, clubs you need the simple weapon proficiency; for flails, longswords and warhammers you need the martial weapon proficiency; for unusual weapons like the sai, bastard sword and shurikens, you need the exotic weapon proficiency. Depending on the kits/classes you select, these will come with different feats. For example, warrior types (barbarians, fighters, paladins, rangers) are always proficient with martial and simple weapons, unlike mages and monks. But you may choose these feats for your mage when you level up.

3E also removes some class-based restrictions from AD&D, such as clerics not being able to use pointy weapons. And the general system moves to d20. You can find a longer discussion here:

http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/8535/differences-between-dd-3-x-and-previous-editions

I never played the first Icewind Dale (AD&D), but the second one (3E) was a LOT of fun. It's the best the Infinity Engine looked and will look, being the last of the Infinity Engine games. ToEE and NWN also implement 3E.

 

[Guest 2091327]

Gk 1-2-3 are seperate 'adventures', and you dont have to have played the prior ones - though a lot of the characters peronalities/motivations are introduced in earlier ones so you may be saying 'what is a shattenjager?' or 'what is this shiney medallion?' at first until you work it out through the current story.

Or you could wander through the 'Lets Play Gabriel Knight' on RPGCodex to get the idea. The "lets play" section is good as you get a (usually) humourous overview/walkthrough of the game. (Just stay far away from the GD forums when at codex).

If you you want to "go retro", pull out Might & Magic 7 (on gog) or Ultima 7 pt2 - Serpent Isle (also on gog).

Thanks, that looks like a very thorough Let's Play. I assume the RPGcodex forum has got BSNitis then? Good to hear the Gabriel Knights are separate stories, maybe a bit like the Broken Sword? Not necessary to play them chronologically, but advantageous.

Don't have Might and Magic, but have an Ultima that was free on GOG. Don't recall which version right now, but probably a really old one.

I'm no expert, but I'll try to outline some obvious differences. My 3E is very rusty though.

First of all, "BG D&D" is AD&D 2.0. It features single classed characters, multi- and dual-classed characters, THAC0, negative armor class and class skills (pickpocketing, backstabbing, etc).

3E redefines everything and ALL characters are multiclass, meaning you can advance in any desired class each time you gain a level. This could generate a character like a level 7 paladin/level 2 cleric/level 1 fighter. Or a level 5 ranger/level 5 druid/level 2 thief.

There is no THAC0, but there is an attack bonus that works pretty much the same way. Armor class is now positive.

Apart from class skills, there are FEATS, of which you gain one every four levels (I believe). This means you might have a fighter who is an expert at lockpicking, for example. If you want to dual wield, you will probably want the feat Ambidexterity. Weapon proficiencies are also feats: for maces, staves, clubs you need the simple weapon proficiency; for flails, longswords and warhammers you need the martial weapon proficiency; for unusual weapons like the sai, bastard sword and shurikens, you need the exotic weapon proficiency. Depending on the kits/classes you select, these will come with different feats. For example, warrior types (barbarians, fighters, paladins, rangers) are always proficient with martial and simple weapons, unlike mages and monks. But you may choose these feats for your mage when you level up.

3E also removes some class-based restrictions from AD&D, such as clerics not being able to use pointy weapons. And the general system moves to d20. You can find a longer discussion here:

http://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/8535/differences-between-dd-3-x-and-previous-editions

I never played the first Icewind Dale (AD&D), but the second one (3E) was a LOT of fun. It's the best the Infinity Engine looked and will look, being the last of the Infinity Engine games. ToEE and NWN also implement 3E.

Amazing post, as always Love how much work and thought you put into them.

Read that link, and not sure I like it overall actually. Seems a bit silly to remove class restrictions and using the multiclassing system you speak of, as everybody can sort of be anything. The change to Thac0 and AC is probably good. But it sounds like you level up much faster, and proficiencies/feats have been nerfed. Don't really like the sound of that either. Maybe I'm just too used to AD&D now.

Which system do you prefer the most?

 

[lycos]

I assume the RPGcodex forum has got BSNitis then? Good to hear the Gabriel Knights are separate stories, maybe a bit like the Broken Sword? Not necessary to play them chronologically, but advantageous.

Yes to the GK question.

Bio-itis? OOoooooh No. Codex and BSN hate each other.

Using a club comparision...
BSN: Effete cafe whose patrons moan about how misunderstood they are while reciting bad poetry to each other as they sip tea. Patrons sniff in disdain at you if you upset them.
Codex: Biker bar with wall to wall vomit, swearing, boistrous cheering, fighting and burnouts in the lobby. Patrons throw you through the window if you upset them.

On a personal preference, the codex is good for getting interesting news, 'no bullshit' opinions, and unusual takes on things. Just be prepared to duck the ocassions thrown bottle. />

Though your mentioning of Deus Ex - I decided to try out some of the newer high-res mods to see if they make it any better.

 

[cyberarmy.603]

Congratulations on BG completion.

I can advise you Deus Ex with its mods, or New Vegas with DLCs and mods again. One from TP/FP RPG and one from Infinity Engine syle RPG. This way you wont go burn out on same style games
All suggestions are good, i want to add Alpha Protocol and Vampire Masquarade: Bloodline(or Redemption ) to that lists. Both are good RPGs but need some patches/mods before playthrough especially Bloodlines.

 

[Blothulfur]

Congrats Pangaea, bit of a choker when you finally finish isn't it? The story in Icewind Dale isn't actually that bad, it's just the lack of companion banter and depth that diminishes it in my eye, I do believe there's an NPC mod for it that remedies that however. In terms of atmosphere, locations and sound design Icewind sometimes even outclasses BG2.

Lots of combat though, it's an old school dungeon delve without doubt, and pleasingly difficult at times.

Oh one word on Temple of Elemental Evil, it's based on the original pen and paper module which was not the best of the Greyhawk adventures, so it's not up to the BG2 level in terms of narrative. The combat however is on a whole other level and wipes the floor with RTWP, it's also got quite a good choice and consequence system built into the plot.

 

[Corylea.723]

All suggestions are good, i want to add Alpha Protocol and Vampire Masquarade: Bloodline(or Redemption />) to that lists. Both are good RPGs but need some patches/mods before playthrough especially Bloodlines.

I've heard really good things about Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines. When people make lists of games with great stories, it's always on there. I have trouble playing it because the first-person view gives me motion sickness, but that's the only reason why I haven't gotten into it. It has such serious fandom that they're still making fan-produced patches for it; the most recent one was only a month ago. You can read about the fan patches at Game Banshee's Bloodlines page.

 

[Guest 2091327]

I've heard great things about Bloodlines too, so I hope it will show up on GOG one day.

It is certainly with mixed feelings to have finally finished the Baldur's Gate saga. It's been one hell of a ride, and taken a lot of time, so in one sense it's good to be done with it. But it was so bloody awesome too, that I wish I could do it again "blind".

Not sure what to move onto yet, but probably best to try something different than the IE games now. Would like to play the Icewind Dales too, but think it's best to try something entirely different next as I've been playing BG2 a bit on and off for a few months. Will try out a few of the games I have (and you suggested above) and see what catches my fancy.

 

[volsung]

If you had a DS I could recommend some fun jRPG's for something completely different. What about some strategy, platforming or action even? Have you tried out any of the recent indie puzzle/platformers? Limbo? Trine? Braid?

Seems a bit silly to remove class restrictions and using the multiclassing system you speak of, as everybody can sort of be anything.

No way, it was silly not letting clerics use daggers and swords!

But no, people can't be anything. You only get a handful of feats, so unlike Elder Scrolls games, you can't be a master of everything. Classes set you on a main path, but you can't get all the feats of one class if you are another.

The change to Thac0 and AC is probably good. But it sounds like you level up much faster, and proficiencies/feats have been nerfed. Don't really like the sound of that either. Maybe I'm just too used to AD&D now.

The change of THAC0 and negative AC is just what it is. People hate THAC0 because they probably have trouble adding negative numbers, but in practice it's all the same. You just change your criteria from less is better to more is better.

Some elements may be simplified, but not necessarily "nerfed". It's goal was, I suppose, to make it easier for you to create the character you had in mind, instead of sticking to such strict rules as those of AD&D. From what I heard though, 4E is very streamlined. They removed many social skills and replaced them with just one, making everything more like a "videogame", i.e. combat oriented. I think this is what led to the creation of Pathfinder, sometimes called D&D 3.75

And leveling up depends on the campaign you play. NWN for example goes up to level 20. BG, as you well know, reaches the 30's which is demigod-like in D&D, but it is also a LOT longer. One thing is true though: every time you level up in 3E, you have TONS of things/talents from which to choose only one or two, unlike in BG.

Which system do you prefer the most?

No idea. I think 3E is more flexible and allows for more interesting character development. I am a number person however and I like the strict rules of AD&D just because it's fun playing with complex rules, but let's be honest: sometimes these rules don't make much sense in practice

So I like both. But BG would have been weird in 3E. Character like Jaheira would be a mess, having levels in fighter, druid and the harper prestige class.

 

[Corylea.723]

If you had a DS I could recommend some fun jRPG's for something completely different. What about some strategy, platforming or action even? Have you tried out any of the recent indie puzzle/platformers? Limbo? Trine? Braid?

I have a DS. I'm still working my way through BG2, since I spend most of my time either working on my own game or too sick to play, but while you're in the mood to talk about fun DS games, do tell!

 

[volsung]

I have a DS. I'm still working my way through BG2, since I spend most of my time either working on my own game or too sick to play, but while you're in the mood to talk about fun DS games, do tell! />/>

You are a master with emoticons! That one you used there made me LOL.

Perhaps it should be mistress, but mistress of emoticons sounds like a joke on its own.

Anyway, on the DS, you should definitely play Chrono Trigger. It's a classic SNES jRPG with a wonderful story of kids playing around, accidentally discovering time travel, getting in trouble, and feeling compelled to save the future of the world when they witness its destruction.

Might and Magic: Clash of Heroes was one of my favorite DS games, and it still is except now there are HD versions for consoles and PC. You can get it on Steam if you like, but it also plays great on the DS. This is a mix of turn-based strategy with puzzle-inspired battles, and some light elements of jRPG (which are already light as we all know!). It is set before the events in the Heroes of Might and Magic saga, and you follow a multi-character quest to retrieve an ancient item of unknown power from the clutches of demons, who are strangely organized. There are multiple factions involved, including Haven, Inferno, Sylvan, Academy and Necropolis. Battles are played on a grid and consist of repositioning a randomly sorted array of your varying units (which can be a mix of basic, elite and champion) in patterns so that they may "charge" and release their corresponding attack, which may take a few turns to power up and unleash. It is with these patterns and turns that you have to play around, so that you might "link" different units to fire at the same time (or the correct time) and anticipate your opponents moves. Very addictive.

If you are OK about childish, yet funny jRPG's, my DS came with "Mario and Luigi: Bowser's Inside Story" which turned out to be very entertaining and funny. It is of course very corny humor, but it's charming. It has nice visuals, colors and animations, and the battles require timing (which adds a little depth to simply choosing a thing per turn).

If you like turn-based strategy, I can recommend Disgaea DS. It is the first of the many Disgaeas released on the Playstation. It features a young demon-prince who overslept after his fathers death and woke up to find multiple other contestants for the throne he claims is rightfully his. So he starts a campaign to prove to these Overlord-wannabe's he is the son of this father. It's loaded with witty, funny dialogue and funny situations. You get multiple characters and play on large grids, every character gets a turn and you can move and perform an action, until you wipe out your opponent. Very similar to Final Fantasy Tactics.

And finally some of the games that made the whole DS thing completely worth it. The Castlevania series! As you probably know, Castlevania is a long running franchise featuring a famous family of vampire hunters. In the DS games, you play as other people though. All DS Castlevanias are 2D side-scrolling platformers with lots of monster hunting, level progression and customizable gear. They're pretty much real-time 2D side-scrolling platforming action jRPG's />. Anyway, the first of these, Dawn of Sorrow, is a continuation of a Gameboy Advance game that I never played, but didn't have to. It's very entertaining and surprisingly well written, the visuals are aesthetically pleasing and the locations, although not extremely varied, are intriguing. The third game is Order of Ecclesia, an EXCELLENT DS game, which goes back to the roots of the Castlevania series by letting the player explore a wide variety of locations: haunted forests, foggy shores, spooky cliffs, old villages, and of course the castle. The story is well written and executed, the characters likeable, and the visuals are beautiful 2D sprites that made me wish they made more 2D games. It is very difficult though, even for a Castlevania game, which are traditionally know for being, well... punishing! But then again, so is The Witcher 2. Most boss battles play like the Kayran, i.e. if you don't want to die, don't let him touch you />

I am currently playing Radiant Historia, which is very engaging and entertaining. The writing is laughable though, and I am especially annoyed by the notion of there being a "true history" like things were supposed to happen one way or another. Anyway, gameplay mechanics are fun, except for a few silly things here and there. But like my coworker said: the japanese don't really care for sci-fi, they just build fantasy worlds.

Hope this is helpful />

 

[Guest 2091327]

Installed Krondor because I've heard good things about it, and now I regret buying it. Exaggerate a little, but it's fucking difficult to see what the hell is persons and what the hell is other stuff. It looks made in about 1971.

Looked a little into what might be half-decent builds in Fallout 1 though, so maybe I will start up something there and see if it's bearable this time.

This day has sucked all kinds of rotten arse though, so not sure I want to do anything. Have gotten to the first episode of season 5 of Breaking Bad, so maybe I'll just watch a ton of that instead. I preferred the earlier seasons as everything is so major-league now, but at least it's a good show.

Or I'll see if I have any games where I can just kill shit. Don't think I have any though. There's Mass Effect 1, but I don't know.

 

[Corylea.723]

Thanks for your suggestions, Volsung! I love how much you know about old RPG's and how generous you are in sharing that information.

This day has sucked all kinds of rotten arse though, so not sure I want to do anything.

I'm sorry to hear that it's been a terrible day! *hug*

Or I'll see if I have any games where I can just kill shit. Don't think I have any though. There's Mass Effect 1, but I don't know.

Diablo 2, Titan Quest, and Torchlight are all good for that. I've seen Torchlight (the first one, not Torchlight 2) available for as little as $2.99 some places, though those sales may be over now. Titan Quest is $4.99 from Amazon, though that's the US Amazon; I don't know what the prices in Norway are like.

 

[Blothulfur]

Yeah Betrayal's graphics really work against the game, and it takes a considerable amount of time to get enmeshed in the spirit and atmosphere of the game, but if you persevere a rich, complex and vibrant world will be revealed to you. My advice, delay playing it and read the first three of Raymond Feists novels (Magician, Silverthorn and A Darkness at Sethanon,) the game carries straight on from these and you'll know the lore and characters so much better.

Blog out and get yourself a pizza and a beer in the meantime, beating BG2 deserves some major self pampering.