Please a better combat system in W3

[Amioran]

Please a better combat system in W3

First of all, hello to everybody.

I enjoyed immensely The Witcher 2 for the story, character dept etc. but on one point I found it completely amateurish, and that's the gameplay design. Key pressings not recognized, delayed commands, unchainable mixed attacks, total absence of balance in the skills and so on and so forth.

It broke my hearth to see a so good RPG brought down so much but its poor gameplay. Even with the EE and the very recent FCR the combat is sluggish as hell and 50% of the times commands are not recognized. I talked to some people in the past about the issue and I always found out that some people really didn't see this and they thought everything worked correctly: inevitably those that did think so, however, where people that used Quen and then started hack & slash their way through the game (that's by itself bad design even if those people didn't comprehend it). In this case, yes, there would be no problems for what it concerns input sluggishness, but just start using signs with quick-keys intermingled with attacks and use all your arsenal and then inevitably you will encounter problems.

Now, I didn't personally like the original Witcher combat so much either but in comparison to the sequel is was leap and bounds better. At last it was responsive and you didn't need to dodge everytime to survive. Moreover it was more tied to skills of Geralt than player's skill and imo in an RPG the primary difference should be on how the character is developed instead on how good the player is at the game. The skills in The Witcher 2 makes a difference, yes, but not that much, and the combat is the same from beginning to end no matter the type of build (if you use the character to its potential).

So I kindly ask the developers to please please spend some (much) time to work on the gameplay aspect of the game. It is my firm convinction that the gameplay is as much important as the story in an RPG since combat is a primary aspect of the genre. If the gameplay is not good or amateurish then all the game will be brought down by this. As much as I didn't like Dragon Age 2, for example, its gameplay (apart the endless swarms and comic-book animations) was heap and bounds above The Witcher 2 and it felt professionally done. To see a game so worse in all other aspects be so better done in that compartment really broke my hearth (naturally people can disagree on this point but I would gladly debate on the why the gameplay of DA2 is clearly better from a purely techincal aspect, as input recognition).

I actually didn't understand why CDProjekt with the EE didn't work PRIMARILY on the gameplay aspect. They did new quests, resolved bugs etc. but the gameplay with all its bugs remained almost unchanged. Yes, some balancing of some skills and a little more responsiveness here and there but the huge faults where still there and nothing was done about it. It's impossible to see a game so professionally done in other aspects with a key input recognizment and other technical aspects so badly done as to look like a game done by a company with 1 guy working on it as freetime, seriously. It seemed like CDProjekt considered the gameplay aspect much less important than others, and this is (again imo) a great flaw. I can stand not state of the art graphics, I can even stand bad UI and similar things, but in an RPG I cannot stand bad story, unimmersive background and bad gameplay, no matter what.

So this is my open letter for you CDProjekt Red: please for the love of God work on the gameplay aspect for the next game and put in it as much love as you put to the story and immersion aspect because it is as much important (if not even more for some aspects).

What do you fellow forumites think of the gameplay of The Witcher 2? Did you like it or did you find, as me, that it was amateurishly done in comparison to other aspects of the title?

 

[M4xw0lf.978]

The behavior you describe could well be caused by lack of performance of your hardware...
I never had problems with unreactive controls.

 

[Garrison72]

The devs have been clear on this: a worse combat system for TW3. No ifs ands or buts about it...

List your PC specs because it sounds like that may be a factor, especially 50% of your inputs are lagging. My experience is the more I lower the settings the smoother the game plays, especially after the EE. And I'm sure combat will only get better.

 

[Amioran]

The behavior you describe could well be caused by lack of performance of your hardware...
I never had problems with unreactive controls.

I have a good hardware, that's not the problem.

To you two: it's really possible that you never see that's impossible to cast a spell with a quick-key after a parry? It is really possible that you have never seen that it's impossible to cast a spell after a dodge if not after the animation is ALL finished (that means you have to wait other two steps - this is removed in FCR btw, but this last has a great problem now with how Quen works, given that it is tied to the block key: try using the mod as you should, i.e. activating Quen before an enemy attack and you will surely encounter the problem I'm talking about, usually after a parry as in: you parry an attack then try to cast Quen and da da! it doesn't work).

I wonder how people play, seriously. If you just use a sign to *open* the fight then attack you will never notice it (or dodge, cast, then attack and so on). Try instead to attack and in-between cast signs (as it should be, since you should not dodge around for all the battlefield as a spinning top, so to overcome this I usually use Aard to distance some enemies while I focus on some others, withoud dodging back, the problem is that the input will block for one motive or another while you intermingle attacks with signs if you do this, try for yourself) then you will encounter all these problems and more.

Moreover it's not just about the technical issues, it is also about the way the combat is done, and the balance of the skills. You have to always to dodge around a lot, certain skills are completely broken in comparison to others and so on and so forth.

 

[Garrison72]

I have a good hardware, that's not the problem.

To you two: it's really possible that you never see that's impossible to cast a spell with a quick-key after a parry? It is really possible that you have never seen that it's impossible to cast a spell after a dodge if not after the animation is ALL finished (that means you have to wait other two steps - this is removed in FCR btw).

I wonder how people play, seriously.

Honestly, after the EE I have no more issues with hotkey inputs. I use the number keys for my signs and they work fine. Don't forget there is a gating mechanic in place for every action and they vary, so you can't spam keys and expect Geralt to react that quickly. In this respect it's similar to Dark Souls. There are valid complaints, sure, but what you describe has been fixed.

 

[wichat]

Some humbleness would facilitate to others users of this forum to help you nicely. Here there are hundreds of players who are playing from several years ago, then surely you should find something new to learn if you let them help you. />

 

[tommy5761]

Are you using any specific gaming mouse and keyboard or wireless ones ?

 

[jerf.674]

Well, it's not like "commands are not recognised". The point is that, for your commands to work, you have to time them carefully, that's a part of the challenge. You simply misunderstand the idea behind the combat mechanics of The Witcher 2. In a sense, it's an evelution from the mechanics of The Witcher 1, where you had to click presicely in the correct intervals of time to succeed. In The Witcher 2 it's less transparent, but you still hive to time your clicks carefully to succeed, that's how it's designed. You shouldn't expect Geralt to immedeately react to your every click.

In my opinion, the combat in The Witcher 2 was very good: rather challenging and tactically interesting.

 

[IsengrimR]

How would do expect it to work OP? Geralt interrupting middle-swing to roll away? That would make it easy as pie, no hit&run attacks needed, not thinking needed just bash into 5 guys and swing to win. You need to understand that with every swing/click - you are committed, and you need to plan accordingly. It's not mindless hack&slash-i-have-1000hp-and-i-do-not-stagger-so-I-win.
Think more tactically - example - ripost the guy on the left, roll away from charging shield-guy, kill the guy closest to you, aard the shield-guy, finish off the guy you riposted and then kill the shield-guy - that's what I call fun & games in the moonlight!

It's an action RPG... Your personal skills should have impact on gameplay. Learning, observing, adapting.
Next you will say to me that Dark Souls isn't an RPG cause people can beat it on level 1 but you will call the idiotic hack and slash in Dragon Age 2 a good system? Seriously?

CDPR did a good job with gameplay aspect. While it looked similar to other RPGs, it really differs, forcing the player to use his brain, not to rely on just the fact he is leveled enough to save himself.

Gameplay is fine, inventory system is fine. Seriously, if that's just the matter of like... 3 minutes of getting used to it?
Games differ, and that's the beauty of it.
Hell, it took me long as I was playing Witcher 1 just before starting Witcher 2 ( all was planned ) but my mind decided to still use Witcher 1 controls in W2... I loled so hard every time I bashed the wrong button - "GRIM YOU IDIOT! Q isn't for getting out your steel sword anymore ya dingus!"

 

[EmperorZorn]

CDPR already confirmed that the combat system will be more reactive in TW3.
All combat animations can be interrupted by other actions.

That being said, I actually loved the combat in TW2.
I especially enjoyed it on high difficulty levels.

 

[Amioran]

Honestly, after the EE I have no more issues with hotkey inputs. I use the number keys for my signs and they work fine. Don't forget there is a gating mechanic in place for every action and they vary, so you can't spam keys and expect Geralt to react that quickly. In this respect it's similar to Dark Souls. There are valid complaints, sure, but what you describe has been fixed.

It has not been fixed. I said that the responsiveness is a little enhanced but still it's broke (and in fact in the FCR mod it says explicitly this). For example in EE you cannot chain a sign after an attack how you can an attack with another attack. Do you call it good gameplay design? With a sign you have to wait for the animation of the attack to finish *fully* then you can cast a sign, you cannot link the cast as you can another attack (one after the other, chained), there's always a little pause for the animation to finish then the animation of the sign casted begins. This doesn't make sense.

Dark Souls is completely different, that's a GOOD gameplay. The chaining there works flawlessly and attacks (of all nature) can be chained together. Moreover the dynamics of DS is all another thing. You don't need to dodge around like an idiot, you can strafe and block, timing your attacks and counters correctly.

 

[adridu59]

Can you post your config/OS/peripherals specs? Maybe that would help on the matter.

 

[IsengrimR]

It has not been fixed. I said that the responsiveness is a little enhanced but still it's broke (and in fact in the FCR mod it says explicitly this). For example in EE you cannot chain a sign after an attack how you can an attack with another attack. Do you call it good gameplay design? With a sign you have to wait for the animation of the attack to finish *fully* then you can cast a sign, you cannot link the cast as you can another attack (one after the other, chained), there's always a little pause for the animation to finish then the animation of the sign casted begins. This doesn't make sense.

Dark Souls is completely different, that's a GOOD gameplay. The chaining there works flawlessly and attacks (of all nature) can be chained together. Moreover the dynamics of DS is all another thing. You don't need to dodge around like an idiot, you can strafe and block, timing your attacks and counters correctly.

Chaining works flawlessy in Witcher 2. If it doesn't for you, it's seriously a hardware issue.
You can block in W2, but you can move while at it - but you can block from every direction, given you have it unlocked.
You can also counter in Witcher 2.

I am sorry, you do not have to dodge in Dark Souls? Well, get on full Havel, without his ring so you won't be able to roll and beat the game this way. Please do. It's not like magic will go through your shield anyway, not like some bosses have elemental weapons, not like blocking some attacks is pointless.
C'mon, do it.

 

[Amioran]

How would do expect it to work OP? Geralt interrupting middle-swing to roll away? That would make it easy as pie, no hit&run attacks needed, not thinking needed just bash into 5 guys and swing to win.

So you think that the only alternative to dodge around like an idiot is hack & slash? Good to know. Never heard about strafinng, blocking and countering?

Btw the first instance of The Witcher 2 was the most hack % slash gameplay you would ever desire with Quen, isn't it?

You need to understand that with every swing/click - you are committed, and you need to plan accordingly. It's not mindless hack&slash-i-have-1000hp-and-i-do-not-stagger-so-I-win.

You need to understand that there's a difference between what you call "planning" and dodging around like an idiot to attack the lonely guy outside of the group (even better from behind, isn't it? The classic "cheesy"). That's working the system, it is not "planning", and this is exactly what people like you do and then either say "it's perfect as it is". OMG.

Think more tactically - example - ripost the guy on the left, roll away from charging shield-guy, kill the guy closest to you, aard the shield-guy, finish off the guy you riposted and then kill the shield-guy - that's what I call fun & games in the moonlight!

You watch too many movies. Care to show me a video of The Witcher 2 where you see this done (in this way)? Because, you know, I've seen many videos of people that are masters of this game and I've never see them do something like this. What you describe would actually be fine but the reality is the situation is that you dodge, attack the guy alone, then dodge again, attack the other guy, dodge out, attack another guy and so on and so forth.

If you try to actually go against this routine (as *I* try to do) then you will encounter a lot of problems. With the vanilla Witcher is almost impossible given the dynamics of some skills (as block and riposte requiring vigor) and if you use a mod as FCR then you will encounter problems with the input system as I've already said.

It's an action RPG... Your personal skills should have impact on gameplay. Learning, observing, adapting.
Next you will say to me that Dark Souls isn't an RPG cause people can beat it on level 1 but you will call the idiotic hack and slash in Dragon Age 2 a good system? Seriously?

Dark Souls has NOTHING to do with the gameplay of The Witcher. I'm sorry but you have no idea of what you are talking about because they are completely different and everyone knowing a little about these things will understand it immediately.

As for DA2, you seem to have no idea of what hack & slash means, given what you have said above, so I will leave it at that.

CDPR did a good job with gameplay aspect.

If you say so. All the people I've talken about that knows something about these things thinks exactly as me on the issue. The fact that you cannot recognize the difference between Dark Souls and The Witcher 2 gameplay already tells something.

You don't either seem to understand that the most close representation of The Witcher 2 gameplay would be Arkham Asylum. Now, compare the dynamics and the fluidity of that gameplay vs. the one of TW2, want you? Do you notice a difference? C'mon!

While it looked similar to other RPGs, it really differs, forcing the player to use his brain, not to rely on just the fact he is leveled enough to save himself.

If for "use his brain" you intend "dodge around endlessly to attack the lone wolf around in the back" (as 99% of people as you that insist that all is fine, and before this they did the usual "Quen + slash around") then you are right, but I have another idea of what it means "using my brain", thank you.

 

[Garrison72]

It has not been fixed. I said that the responsiveness is a little enhanced but still it's broke (and in fact in the FCR mod it says explicitly this). For example in EE you cannot chain a sign after an attack how you can an attack with another attack. Do you call it good gameplay design? With a sign you have to wait for the animation of the attack to finish *fully* then you can cast a sign, you cannot link the cast as you can another attack (one after the other, chained), there's always a little pause for the animation to finish then the animation of the sign casted begins. This doesn't make sense.

Dark Souls is completely different, that's a GOOD gameplay. The chaining there works flawlessly and attacks (of all nature) can be chained together. Moreover the dynamics of DS is all another thing. You don't need to dodge around like an idiot, you can strafe and block, timing your attacks and counters correctly.

If the combat's not your thing then fine, but what you say just isn't true for me. I can chain attacks in any order. Strong,+Aard+light, strong. Aard/ignii + light + strong. Aard+strong+strong. I can cast a sign after a sword attack or vice versa, and it flows just fine. Look up any combat youtube vid and you'll see this is the case. So why don't you post your hardware specs to see if you can get to the problem?

BTW, there technically are counters in the game and you can even get a sword that enhances its damage. Riposte work nicely too, but is primarily for human foes. Use bombs and traps if you don't want to roll around like an idiot, or upgrade Aard or Ignii. The more you put into the system, the more you'll get out of it. If you don't think about encounter tactics beforehand then yes, you'll spend a lot of time dodging.

 

[Amioran]

Chaining works flawlessy in Witcher 2.

I'm sorry but or A) you cannot see it (as it is probable) or /> you don't understand of what I talk about when I talk of "chaining". Look at how you can chain attacks together: do you see that the next attack begins *immediately* after the last, the animations merge? Now, watch with signs. It works the same way? No, isn't it?

If it doesn't for you, it's seriously a hardware issue.

Hardware has nothing to do with it. It's just that you don't know what to look for. Look at the joining of the animations, THAT'S when the "chaining" starts. An attack without chaining has the end of the animation to work fully before the next attack can take place, a chaining attack instead has merged animations (that's what it happens, in fact, with sword attacks).

You can block in W2, but you can move while at it - but you can block from every direction, given you have it unlocked.
You can also counter in Witcher 2.

A) You cannot move.
/> Blocking costs vigor and you cannot block without.
C) Response costs vigor.


B + C means that against a group there's no way (neither with 5 vigor bars) to riposte more than one guy, then you HAVE to dodge because you are out of vigor and you cannot block without it. Include A and it means that if you have a guy in an angle blocking will not work and you have to dodge anyway.

FCR is a little better with the automatic blocking costing no vigor.

I am sorry, you do not have to dodge in Dark Souls? Well, get on full Havel, without his ring so you won't be able to roll and beat the game this way. Please do. It's not like magic will go through your shield anyway, not like some bosses have elemental weapons, not like blocking some attacks is pointless.
C'mon, do it.

You have to dodge, but not as much as The Witcher 2. In DS you dodge when you need, in TW2 you dodge always.

 

[Amioran]

If the combat's not your thing then fine, but what you say just isn't true for me. I can chain attacks in any order. Strong,+Aard+light, strong. Aard/ignii + light + strong. Aard+strong+strong. I can cast a sign after a sword attack or vice versa, and it flows just fine. Look up any combat youtube vid and you'll see this is the case. So why don't you post your hardware specs to see if you can get to the problem?

A) That's not what "chaining" means. Look at my other post above to understand what I mean by it.
/> The input usually blocks after a parry of yourself of the enemy.
C) I will take a look at your videos next to see what you do in the specific.

EDIT: Care to post a link so I can see a video of yours? I don't know where to look to find them or I would do so myself.

 

[Garrison72]

A) That's not what "chaining" means. Look at my other post above to understand what I mean by it.

The input usually blocks after a parry of yourself of the enemy.
C) I will take a look at your videos next to see what you do in the specific.

Quit treating everybody like an idiot. I'm a longtime Street Fighter player, and I know full well what chaining attacks means and what combos, counters and gating mechanics are. You don't, and you should post a youtube vid confirming your claims because they seem bollocks to me.

 

[cmdr_silverbolt]

No worries, Selea (and welcome here, btw)- the Devs have mentioned more than once that combat for TW3 is going to be more responsive, for example each button click will count as a move/animation, and you will have the ability to not only combine the various moves to create combos, but also to stop them and try something else if you want to change tactics; moreover, Geralt will have 94 animations this time as opposed to only 20 as in TW2, so I believe that will allow for buttloads of combos.

Add to this that we'll be getting ten signs instead of five as in TW2, and we'll have our alchemy to supplement all of that, and I think combat in TW3 sounds pretty awesome.

To answer you question, I thought combat in TW2 was fun- you just never had a dull moment, and it was a joy to keep Geralt alive.

 

[tommy5761]

@ Selea
You can claim that hardware has nothing to do with it when in fact it does . For instance there have been users with Razer products who have issues with responsiveness and some adjustments have to be made within the software . So please enlighten us .