Please a better combat system in W3

[Amioran]

Quit treating everybody like an idiot. I'm a longtime Street Fighter player, and I know full well what chaining attacks means and what combos, counters and gating mechanics are. You don't, and you should post a youtube vid confirming your claims because they seem bollocks to me.

I care nothing how much you play and what you play. You dind't know the difference and that's it. You say "I don't" but you couldn't understand the difference and *I* have explained that to you, isn't it?

Did you notice that swords attacks between themselves and swords attacks + signs had different dynamics in how they worked? So of what the hell are you talking about? Frankly if you play SF and you cannot understand the difference in dynamics between the chaining animations of TW2 with signs and those I sincerely don't know no more what to say: or you are blind you just have to play the fanboy at all costs. Just comparing sword attacks chaining and swords attacks + signs chaining everybody knowing where to look can see immediately the difference.

I don't tread nobody as an idiot, I treat them as they behave. If you behave like one that doesn't know of what he is talking about and cannot understand the difference in things why should I treat you otherwise?

As for posting a video: why should I post a video of something that EVERYBODY can look at him/herself just by comparing how animations works? Do we start even to deny evidence now just to defend the game you like?

 

[Amioran]

@ Selea
You can claim that hardware has nothing to do with it when in fact it does . For instance there have been users with Razer products who have issues with responsiveness and some adjustments have to be made within the software . So please enlighten us .

It depends on how you play. I know perfectly all those topics you talk about but this has nothing to do with this. If I play in a certain way it never happens to me, it is only when I play trying to not dodge around (that requires timed reactions with FCR) that the problems start arising because of the way the dynamics works.

For example you cannot interrupt a parry animation with an action and if you try to do it then the action stops responding. It's not that the devs don't know about this, they know about it, in fact if you read the FCR mod it explicitly say:

"• Up to 80% increase in responsiveness per Geralt's animations.
• Up to 50% increase in responsiveness per NPCs animations."

Because in effect *many* of these problems have been resolved in that mod, but still many remains given how the system is done. Flash has worked on removing frames from animations so that inputs are more swift for non chainable ones, but still there's the problem I was talking about before, for example.

 

[Amioran]

No worries, Selea (and Welcome here, btw)- the Devs have mentioned more than once that combat for TW3 is going to be more responsive, for example each button click will count as a move/animation, and you will have the ability to not only combine the various moves to create combos, but also to stop them and try something else if you want to change tactics; moreover, Geralt will have 94 animations this time as opposed to only 20 as in TW2, so I believe that will allow for buttloads of combos.

Those are very good news indeed. Thank you for letting me know. It seems they are working on the right direction (as shown by the animations used and the possibility of cancelling a previous move).

 

[Geralt_of_bsas]

Okay so im not sure i get what you mean, but ill try.

With chaining animations, and the difference between two sword moves, and a sword move and sign cast, you mean that the animations dont melt? thus they cant be "interrupted" for the next one to start?

If this is what you are referring too, then it does happen, but the melting of animations isnt your problem, its just the time animations take.

This is not inherently bad design, its just a design decision that you can either like in its concept or not, but working, its working perfectly.

What i mean is, right now, because of how the game works, you have to meassure precisely how much time the animation will take and if thats enough for you to do the next action without getting hurt, this is not an error, the game is prepared to be played like this.

On the other hand, i almost never had problems like "Key pressings not recognized, delayed commands"

If 50% of the commands are actually not recognized instead of being impossible to perform commands because you're not supposed to be able to do them at that time, the problem is on your end, and not the game.

If you care for any reason, i dont play with Quen at all, but i do have to roll around a lot of course.

RPGs come in all types and forms, the only reason their combat USED to be more based on stats is because technology was too old to produce a good real time player-skill based combat. Regardless of your taste or mine, The witcher games requiring to be good at the game equally or more, compared to the charactr development, is not a fault of the game, its just a preference in design, so its perfect.

Again, now you say combat is a primary aspect to the RPG genre, well TW games are not the "RPG genre", they are the witcher games and thats it, and in the witcher games, and the vision with wich they were created, the most important thing is the story and characters.

"It's impossible to see a game so professionally done in other aspects with a key input recognizment and other technical aspects so badly done as to look like a game done by a company with 1 guy working on it as freetime"

This is complete bullshit and unecessary, comparing the whole professional gameplay team of RED to 1 guy on its freetime its useless and served you no porpuse other than trolling.

Gameplay is not only combat, ill say that, in case you want to explain something later and you get people confused, refer to it as what it is, its just a suggestion.

"please for the love of God work on the gameplay aspect for the next game and put in it as much love as you put to the story and immersion aspect"

You talk as if CDPRED didnt gave a shit about combat and they specifically didnt even tried to work on it, dont do that, its offensive and again, useless. If to you they made mistakes or you disagree with some design decisions, perfect.


Now for my opinion, i consider the gameplay of TW2 good, and the combat, i consider its concept good, but its application or representation bad, they had good ideas and intentions, but they didnt implemented those well.

Compared to other aspects, id say the witcher 2's combat is clearly the weakest part of the game.

In TW3, CDPRED being as incredibly awesome as they are, the complains and constructive criticism appears to have been listened, and so it will feature core changes that so far sound really good in my opinion and are specifically made to adress our biggest concerns.

Here is some info on the new combat, but search for a bit and you'll find much more.

The combat is somwhere in between the one of The Witcher 2 and the one of The Witcher 1. It is slower than in The Witcher 2, and requires more thought.
The number of different strikes and combos increased fivefold, and they heavily depend on timing.
If you press the button a second earlier, Geralt will strike in one way. A second later, in a different way.
And the developers said that, citing them, "Geralt will no longer turn his back on foes".

Critical strikes in areas that matter depending on how much you learn about said monster

there is a new mechanic, which is similar to VATS from Fallout 3. You can aim at the specific parts of monsters bodies in slow-mo

96 animations for Geralt’s combat moves (last game had 20)

Game has a “weighting” system for the camera to help keep the biggest threats in frame at all times

Every button press mapped to a single strike
- Each move takes a roughly equivalent time to perform
- Can always interrupt your current action to immediately dodge or block
- Can block/dodge when out of stamina, but you’ll be staggered

“You don’t run – in the Witcher 2 you were running constantly. Now you walk, but your attacks are very fast.

Enemy AI completely rebuilt

 

[Acheration]

Well, it's not like "commands are not recognised". The point is that, for your commands to work, you have to time them carefully, that's a part of the challenge. You simply misunderstand the idea behind the combat mechanics of The Witcher 2. In a sense, it's an evelution from the mechanics of The Witcher 1, where you had to click presicely in the correct intervals of time to succeed. In The Witcher 2 it's less transparent, but you still hive to time your clicks carefully to succeed, that's how it's designed. You shouldn't expect Geralt to immedeately react to your every click.

In my opinion, the combat in The Witcher 2 was very good: rather challenging and tactically interesting.

This^

I honestly loved the combat system, and i didn't play witcher 2 for a long time since my friends and some players on internet said " bad " combat system. The most frustrating thing was the signs are intended for single target now, i really miss the days on W1 , where you finish your group combo and toss an Igni to your enemies as finisher. Now you just can't(if i'm not wrong it just improves the range and damage in W2). I had many problems with block/dodge/counter since it was hotkey based, but i just adepted after some practice.

And for quen sign,(imo) it's intended to be used before entering the combat(or mid combat when you find a spare time, maybe toss them with yrden first and pop it, like that) just like in W1, so when you dodge your opponent and got a free moment to cast it, you just pop it and get a brief protection, it's NOT something you intend to cast after a sword combo, no witcher should do that, because you give them an opening to strike you while you're casting it(yes it's not an immidiate sign)

There are only 2 things i hate about this game, first of them is the signs, like i said you can use them on just 1 enemy, and the second one is the dodge rolling at the start, befor you improve the skill, i hardly got away with a dodge before adding a point to dodge distance perk at swordsman tree.

Other than that, both gameplay and the game itself was a huge fun for me. Especially you can see totally different things by picking your side after first chapter.

 

[Amioran]

Okay so im not sure i get what you mean, but ill try.

With chaining animations, and the difference between two sword moves, and a sword move and sign cast, you mean that the animations dont melt? thus they cant be "interrupted" for the next one to start?

If this is what you are referring too, then it does happen, but the melting of animations isnt your problem, its just the time animations take.

This is not inherently bad design, its just a design decision that you can either like in its concept or not, but working, its working perfectly.

It's bad design because for sword attacks it doesn't work that way. A gameplay must be consistent, that's one of the key points.

What i mean is, right now, because of how the game works, you have to meassure precisely how much time the animation will take and if thats enough for you to do the next action without getting hurt, this is not an error, the game is prepared to be played like this.

For swords attacks it doesn't work like that. You can merge one attack with the other, with signs you have to wait the animation of the attack to end, and then (after a little pause caused by more frames than needed) the animation of the sign casting to start. Again, a gameplay must be consistent: or you don't enable the merging for everything or you enable it for everything elsewhere there cannot be good timing in fighting.

The timing you talk about is just why the gameplay is not well done in this point, because every good system has a certain timing that the player get accustomed to: TW2 has a different timing depending on which action you do (and not tied to a certain skill, it is an arbitrary and artificial change of timing) and this is bad design.

On the other hand, i almost never had problems like "Key pressings not recognized, delayed commands"

As I said, it is mostly seen with FCR and playing in a certain way. If you play "normally" it is very difficult to see this because:

You don't need good timing dodging around and dodging actually resets an input block, so also if your input blocked and you then dodge you can either not understand it blocked to begin with. Given that 99% of the people play TW2 by rolling around a lot (there's no other way to play, isn't it?) it is difficult you encounter the problem if you don't know where to look.

But if you install FCR and change way of playing (not dodging) then you start to see all the flaws in the input dynamics.

If you care for any reason, i dont play with Quen at all, but i do have to roll around a lot of course.

And do you like it? I mean, do you think it's a good gameplay one where you have to dodge all the time and sort of "game the system" to win? As it is now you have always to go for the lone wolf outside because you cannot fight a group for various skill choices. I cannot understand how people can really defend this type of gameplay and either say it's well done.

People are here even comparing Dark Souls with TW2, do you understand it? What there can be of more distant from it I don't know.

Again, now you say combat is a primary aspect to the RPG genre, well TW games are not the "RPG genre", they are the witcher games and thats it, and in the witcher games, and the vision with wich they were created, the most important thing is the story and characters.

Witcher games ARE rpgs. Moreover I said that combat is A primary aspect, not the only one. I said that story and characters are, in the same way. Still, combat is a large part of an rpg, included The Witcher, in fact. There are a lot of fights in the franchise, isn't it?

This is complete bullshit and unecessary, comparing the whole professional gameplay team of RED to 1 guy on its freetime its useless and served you no porpuse other than trolling.

It was not trolling, it really seem to me like they took very little time on researching and making the gameplay aspect. First with that Quen turning the gameplay in complete hack & slash, removing it in the EE now it's only dodge and attack from behind, and this only talking of the theoric aspect; if we enter in the technical we have, again, the broken rythm and fluidity that is something you are not used seeing in a studio of this level. I mean, seriously, it seems like they didn't either test the system themselves and took serious work on it.

You talk as if CDPRED didnt gave a shit about combat and they specifically didnt even tried to work on it, dont do that, its offensive and again, useless. If to you they made mistakes or you disagree with some design decisions, perfect.

They didn't focus on the combat aspect too much in this iteration, and I say what I see. When the EE came out I thought they would have worked on that aspect first of all and lost a lot of time to rework it properly given how many people (that knew of what they did talk about) at the time said the same as I'm saying now, but nothing much was done apart little touches. They focused even more on the story etc.

Probably they did because at that point it would have taken too much time to revisit everything and they already started working on the next game, but still, the result is what we have and surely the combat is the weakest aspect of the game.

Here is some info on the new combat, but search for a bit and you'll find much more.

The combat is somwhere in between the one of The Witcher 2 and the one of The Witcher 1. It is slower than in The Witcher 2, and requires more thought.
The number of different strikes and combos increased fivefold, and they heavily depend on timing.
If you press the button a second earlier, Geralt will strike in one way. A second later, in a different way.
And the developers said that, citing them, "Geralt will no longer turn his back on foes".

Critical strikes in areas that matter depending on how much you learn about said monster

there is a new mechanic, which is similar to VATS from Fallout 3. You can aim at the specific parts of monsters bodies in slow-mo

96 animations for Geralt’s combat moves (last game had 20)

Game has a “weighting” system for the camera to help keep the biggest threats in frame at all times

Every button press mapped to a single strike
- Each move takes a roughly equivalent time to perform
- Can always interrupt your current action to immediately dodge or block
- Can block/dodge when out of stamina, but you’ll be staggered

“You don’t run – in the Witcher 2 you were running constantly. Now you walk, but your attacks are very fast.

Enemy AI completely rebuilt

Thank you for this information. I really appreciate it.

I'm very happy that they seem to be working on this aspect much more this time around.

 

[Amioran]

I honestly loved the combat system

I still don't understand how can one really like a "gameplay" where you have to constantly dodge around not because the system is done that way but because some skills are not balanced properly aand so they don't work as they should (on paper) and you are FORCED to do it (it would be appropriate for a mage build, but surely not for a sword one, with the parry and riposte available), but to everyone his/her own, I guess. That CDProjekt didn't want people to continually roll around as a sword build is also proven by the fact that they designed Quen to begin with (that in combination with Whirl make it so you don't have to dodge at all; now, if riposte and block worked correctly and you had strafing you would not need to dodge anyway actually). It then turned in a completely broken skill because it was too powerful, but still it was there for a reason (and it's used also by some NPCs in fact).

If you like to "game the system" (as for example in Dragon Age Origins attacking enemies with bows outside of their range for an error in the gameplay dynamics) and like to do it and even call it a "wonderful feature" so be it.

 

[Acheration]

I still don't understand how can one really like a "gameplay" where you have to constantly dodge around not because the system is done that way but because some skills are not balanced properly aand so they don't work as they should (on paper) and you are FORCED to do it, but to everyone his/her own, I guess.

If you like to "game the system" (as for example in Dragon Age Origins attacking enemies with bows outside of their range for an error in the gameplay dynamics) and like to do it and even call it a "wonderful feature" so be it.

What am i supposed when i'm out numbered? Of course, they're forcing you to dodge, but it's not something you wouldn't do if you were there? if i'm on a 1v5 position of course, i'll run around as possible and try to hit and run. So i'm perfectly fine with dodging all the time against large numbers, you don't have to dodge away on 1v2, 1v3 fights most of the time, it's a choice on that situation. You can Yrden one, and axii other after then take out rest quickly as possible.

Yes, combat is making you angry at some points, i'm getting it too(esp. on dark or hard modes, you're getting nice punishment for a mistake). And devs are aware of it and making it better in TW3...

And, i just get along with most games that suits me, maybe it's me , but i really like to play TW2, it's not too hard, or , too easy for me.

And a bow range flaw and dodge based play is not same things through my eyes.

 

[Mothra]

I can use a sign after a sword move in TW2 no problem. Maybe the animations do not "blend" but I still manage to make them execute right after each other without Geralt reverting back to his idle combat stance. With sword attacks it looks maybe better but I don't see/feel any different timing. Only thing is that you can just spam the attack key because swords do not cost any resource and they will 99% of the time hit the time frame for them to chain with that method.
There was a bug where Geralt made 2 extra steps after a dodge that has been fixed 90% of the time in the EE
and 100% in FCR though.

I did a tank build (sword/alch) in TW2 and I had no problem exchanging blows with humanoid enemies, using riposte/block, no magic and minimal rolling. Fighting monsters is a total different thing since you cannot employ "normal" sword fighting techniques so I used traps/bombs to immobilize and then hack away.

Still - I would have liked a more stat-based combat in TW3 like it was in TW1 - the new additions sound OK from a action-standpoint but shorter animations and animation-interrupts will give players EASIER control, unfortunately it all sounds like a complete cakewalk now. You already could do a single-target DPS build in TW2 that one-shots all bosses in act3 and 2-shots most in act2.

Ah, I would like to see the DarkSouls -no dodge- playthrough as well, that guy/girl must be amazing.

 

[wichat]

I still don't understand how can one really like a "gameplay" where you have to constantly dodge around not because the system is done that way but because some skills are not balanced properly aand so they don't work as they should (on paper) and you are FORCED to do it (it would be appropriate for a mage build, but surely not for a sword one, with the parry and riposte available), but to everyone his/her own, I guess. That CDProjekt didn't want people to continually roll around is also proven by the fact that they designed Quen to begin with. It then turned in a completely broken skill, but still it was there for a reason (and it's used also by some NPCs in fact).

I'm asking myself if you have ever read and heard the interviews which CDPR have given throughout these last months ... Beside your troubles to understand how can one really like a "gameplay" where you have to constantly dodge around, you're asking for an information (better combat system in W3) that CDPR already gave us. Sorry if I'm wrong and misunderstood your level of knowledge about this matter.

 

[Garrison72]

Sounds like OP wants this game to behave like DMC, Darksiders or Bayonetta.

 

[Cs__sz__r]

Sounds like OP wants this game to behave like DMC, Darksiders or Bayonetta.

Bleh.

 

[alextyc1]

Im fine with arkham+dark souls+cdpr ideas for TW3 combat.

And yeah,TW2 has great combat system but its kinda messy...not hard ,but i wanted it to be more fluid.

 

[azarvilgefortz]

I've never had a problem with the combat in TW1 or TW2. You only have to dodge if you're outnumbered. I'm happy that they're going to redo the alchemy system to better work with combat. Other than that, I really hope they don't change the combat too much in TW3.

 

[AserPik]

Huzzah for the Xbox version....
Even on my PC version, I cant say I have ever encountered this problem...

 

[Amioran]

What am i supposed when i'm out numbered? Of course, they're forcing you to dodge, but it's not something you wouldn't do if you were there?

You are not a mutant built appositely for fighting and that people constantly fear and despise for that.

Moreover in the lore Geralt is not a backstabbing guy that pirouhettes around selectively killing enemies, he is an agile fighter that fight groups of enemies at once (and he is considered a sort of "fencing god", not a nimble assassin).

So i'm perfectly fine with dodging all the time against large numbers, you don't have to dodge away on 1v2, 1v3 fights most of the time, it's a choice on that situation.

1 vs 2 or 1 vs 3 encounters it means that you dodged out to that situation (and continued to dodge until you could not isolate 2 enemies to win) or it is against "bosses" or some selected creatures.

I mean, you are at the end of the game with your maximum skilset built, you are against 4 humans and you are FORCED to dodge NOT because the difficulty cannot handle you to fight so many people at once (as it can happen in Dark Souls) but just because the way block and riposte are designed don't permit you to do that for a purely technical reason (i.e. vigor that recharges too slowly because it is a spell-tied mechanic plus lack or strafing/walking).

It's possible that you people really cannot comprehend that this is a fault as big as an house?

You can Yrden one, and axii other after then take out rest quickly as possible.

On the time you Axii one and Yrden the other you have already taken out all the group by dodging. There's simply no point because, again, animations for casting are so slow to react in comparison to the rest. A sword build acquires a good block + riposte appositely to fight groups.... only that you cannot anyway given how vigor and stamina are the same thing (who the hell thought that I really wonder, it doesn't take a genius to understand that vigor - i.e. mana - cannot be replenished too fast because elsewhere you can just spam spells around while something tied to combat abilities - i.e. stamina - instead *requires* to replenish fast).

And, i just get along with most games that suits me, maybe it's me , but i really like to play TW2, it's not too hard, or , too easy for me.

It's not about difficulty. I can beat the game fine in whatever mode. It is just about combat mechanics and how they implemented them.

And a bow range flaw and dodge based play is not same things through my eyes.

It's the same thing because you base your paly on a flawed game dynamic.

 

[Amioran]

I've never had a problem with the combat in TW1 or TW2. You only have to dodge if you're outnumbered. I'm happy that they're going to redo the alchemy system to better work with combat. Other than that, I really hope they don't change the combat too much in TW3.

Please don't listen to this guy, I beg of you.

OMG. Have you read something about what I wrote till now?

 

[Amioran]

Sounds like OP wants this game to behave like DMC, Darksiders or Bayonetta.

No, I want it to behave fludly and with a good design, a thing you cannot comprehend.

I mean, someone that cannot comprehend like how tying vigor to stamina is a design flaw and someone that cannot comprehend that animations chaining must be the same for EVERY ability I have absolutely no problem understanding why he cannot grasp the difference between this and a gameplay as Bayonetta or Darksiders. I mean, you could neither understand the difference that there is in the game between animations for attacks and animations for casting, what can you really expect? And you even have the pretense of calling yourself an "expert".

As always you have no idea of what you are talking about and then you blame me for telling you so.

P.S: You are right, TW2 combat is perfect. I mean, you have the broken Quen skill (that with the EE is now completely another thing, so how comes? It was a flaw or not?) then you have the broken vigor mechanics tied to block, then you have the flawed chaining animations of spells, then you have the poor targeting design, then you have the input system not recognized well in certain situations, then you have the total absense of strafing and running around like an idiot turning your back on foes; you are right, everything's perfectly fine as it is.

You are perfectly right, asking for something like this to not happen in the future it means wanting an hack & slash gameplay (Quen LOL). Oh well...

You seem to me as those guys in the Bioware forum that continued insisting that all was perfectly fine in the continuous swarms and comic-book animations of DA2. When people told them they did not make sense they always replied "oh, you want an hack & slash then!" (this seems to be the usual phrase used when you don't know not more what to say but you have to say something, but you understand nothing of what you are saying to begin with).

 

[Amioran]

I'm asking myself if you have ever read and heard the interviews which CDPR have given throughout these last months ... Beside your troubles to understand how can one really like a "gameplay" where you have to constantly dodge around, you're asking for an information (better combat system in W3) that CDPR already gave us. Sorry if I'm wrong and misunderstood your level of knowledge about this matter.

You know, there's a difference between saying a thing and DOING a thing.
Also when they were making TW2 they said they would have devised a great combat system and look what we have here. It is so amateurish in comparison to the rest as to be completely unwatchable and the sad part is that the majority of people don't even comprehend it.

"Oh, I'm fine, I can beat the game fine, duh!"

People here that say "all is fine in the combat of TW2 technically and design speaking" should work for the game industry as lead designers, it would be fun, seriously.

OMG.

 

[tommy5761]

Please let`s not make this a personal issue .

Not sure I understand the issue at hand if what you want is to stop the animation to cast a sign or signs . If it is then I would have a problem with that .