Please return NG main identity from opponent deck manipulation to classic board state control

+

Do you want less clog and mill in the meta?

  • Yes

    Votes: 24 60.0%
  • No

    Votes: 16 40.0%

  • Total voters
    40

Guest 4375874

Guest
I instant forfeit whenever I play against Clog and Mill. These decks are extremely toxic and game-breaking as it prevents you from playing the cards in your deck. I can see the fun a NG player has with them, when they queue up against non-NG player, but these decks are the main reason why I started taking a break from Gwent again, merely playing a few games on Thursday-Friday for the journey contracts, almost always in Draft or Seasonal. Not to mention that because the current meta is so greedy, NG control is becoming more and more a must. I don't like games that force me to play a certain faction to maximize chances of winning. Especially decks that ruin all the fun.
I can't even place all the blame on NG. The devs on a whole created a massive problem when they added echo cards and this huge "point swing" they apparently feel is exciting or actually makes for good game play. Now most factions are so consistent that the easiest way to beat them is to mill their echo cards or clog to ensure they can't draw the cards they want.

I instant forfeit against 3 factions right now NG and SK and SY. Since these account for a large portion of the play rates that means I'm playing the game less and less. If I que in and see them repeatedly then I just log out and play something else. This new direction is slowly costing them loyal players.
 
One of skills in Gwent is building your deck ensuring some consistency, making yourself room for planned combos. It's one of factors that is making this game very competitive.

But how can you do that if your deck is topped with 5 bronzes? Basically, what you draw in first round, is what you will be playing with to the end of match. You are harassed with "gold" bronzes
Blightmaker, cost 5, playing for 11 points including 1 thinning and than
Witcher Mentor, cost 6 playing for 10-13, cause you never see or will see your Oneiro or Heatwave after being clogged with 2/3 point bronzes.

You spend all your resources eventaully loosing to some clearly OP bronzes in first round, your next 3 draws consist of 10 raw points of trash, just so you can be easily rushed with Kolgrim boosting 12 points each round, hidden behind Affan. Should you have any resources to deal with Affan, you will have none for Kolgrim.

I like the approach of this mechanic, but with current cards this is a problem. Kolgrim was fine before, but lack of resources that enemy is struggling with due to clogging, is what makes this card suuuuper powerful. Blightmaker and Witcher Mentor also need some balancing. Value and tempo they create without any combos or consecutive moves is just too enormous for 5 or 6 bronzes! What CDP thinking when designing such cards? I'd like to hear the answer to that question.

Because of Clogging, Gwent is back to lottery draws, and trust me CDP, you cannot draw with trash topping up your deck. I rarely win those games, but only if I am lucky, and honestly I'm already tired of it, seeing another netdecking noob exploiting this utterly ridicilous idea.

I really do not want to get back to the point when I'm tired of Gwent shortly after coming back, just becase CDP will not fix something quickly enough.

Nearly all issues I and others were talking about in the past were eventually touched/fixed/blanaced, but the problem was with the time it took. Remember SK Second Wind? How ridicilous that was? How long it took CDP to change it? Than there was Blood Eagle, Harald and more ridicilousness on SK side. These fixes eventually came in, but after weeks of suffering. After that Viy was added, community called it almost straight away, but CDP ignored it for like 2 months and then suddenly decided to nerf it. Those are simple simple changes and could be answered almost immediately.

I know I switched subjects half-way, but I wanted to use that opportunity to clearly state that CDP takes way too much time with hotfixes. While I do not dwelve on the past, I do not wish to suffer from badly balanced meta again.

I do not know if you guys agree, but I believe NG witchers are a problem with current expansion. When community said that NG bronzes are weak, we meant on buffing them, not making new OP cards. It's hard for me to see any logic behind it.

Thanks for reading
 

Mi_V

Forum regular
Play around it, play cards that they don't want to put in your top deck: your gold cards, even consider discard your bronzes if you on red coin.
 
Play around it, play cards that they don't want to put in your top deck: your gold cards, even consider discard your bronzes if you on red coin.
Playing around it is only a temporary solution. Draw-dependant game is not why I play Gwent.
 

Mi_V

Forum regular
Playing around it is only a temporary solution. Draw-dependant game is not why I play Gwent.
well, If clog deck is that good, everyone will play it to reach ~ 2500 or in a tournament, like SK warriors or Lined pocket decks in previous seasons.
The fact it is not: people don't play clog to climb to top 500, top 60 because the deck is predictable and easy to play around all the time.

If I play against NR siege deck, I don't play my units on ranged row, if I play against MO frost I don't play my units on both rows and if I play against NG clog I don't play bronzes or tokens, play unitless, make their hands awkward. That's the beauty of the game, counter their game plan.
 

Guest 4375874

Guest
Play around it, play cards that they don't want to put in your top deck: your gold cards, even consider discard your bronzes if you on red coin.
lol This is a poor suggestion. What would you use to win in R2 or R3? There's a reason bronze cards are in the game, you have limited golds and most Gold cards require bronze cards for setup. So if I spam all my Golds that then play for half their value because no setup, I still lose because they have a bronze card that plays for 11 and thins. So I still lose R1...BUT let's say I win R1 by sheer dumb luck and whatever magic you work to ensure you draw only gold cards, I have nothing but bronze cards left for R2 and they can still clog in R2.
 

Mi_V

Forum regular
lol This is a poor suggestion. What would you use to win in R2 or R3? There's a reason bronze cards are in the game, you have limited golds and most Gold cards require bronze cards for setup. So if I spam all my Golds that then play for half their value because no setup, I still lose because they have a bronze card that plays for 11 and thins. So I still lose R1...BUT let's say I win R1 by sheer dumb luck and whatever magic you work to ensure you draw only gold cards, I have nothing but bronze cards left for R2 and they can still clog in R2.
How about you watch streamers like Shin or Spyro deal with clog. They win all the time. No need to ague, watch them play and see for yourself. Oh and you can play clog yourself to see how people counter your deck and see if your winrate reach 60% or even 55%.

Clog is annoying in ladder because people don't know how to deal with it.
 
If there is any archetype that causes you undue trouble, you should first look at your play against it, then your own deck before you complain about someone else’s deck. There are legitimate complaints about cards that are just too strong or archetypes that degrade the quality of the game, but most of the time, I find these objections to just be whining by people unwilling to admit their favorite deck (usually one that is itself very binary) has a bad match up.

Clog is rarely an issue if your deck does not overly rely upon drawing narrow card packages whose provision cost is enabled by an excess of very low provision, basically useless cards. It is not an issue if you do not rely on draw or tutor dependent combinations. It is not an issue if your deck allows some flexibility in card order. Decks that sacrifice balance for strength deserve poor matchups.
 

Guest 4375874

Guest
How about you watch streamers like Shin or Spyro deal with clog. They win all the time. No need to ague, watch them play and see for yourself. Oh and you can play clog yourself to see how people counter your deck and see if your winrate reach 60% or even 55%.

Clog is annoying in ladder because people don't know how to deal with it.
Thanks but I'm not interested in streamers, I'm aware of what works and what doesn't. Those are controlled situations with specific decks, I'm not building a deck to counter one faction/leader nor should anyone have to, that's kind of the point. If you can't see the flaw in that statement "They win all the time"? then I don't know what to tell you.

The problem with clog is already obvious. Let's use an example...If I'm playing a pure vampire deck for example, I cannot play golds first. It's an archetype that is dependent on bronze cards setting up the field. If I play any gold vampire card first that card would lose any points I could have gained, that's an immediate loss no question. So now what you would be telling me is not to play vampires against Clog and that's the problem. It suppresses any variety and there are numerous mechanics that also rely on bronze setup. That's the nature of the game.
 
Thanks but I'm not interested in streamers, I'm aware of what works and what doesn't. Those are controlled situations with specific decks, I'm not building a deck to counter one faction/leader nor should anyone have to, that's kind of the point. If you can't see the flaw in that statement "They win all the time"? then I don't know what to tell you.

The problem with clog is already obvious. Let's use an example...If I'm playing a pure vampire deck for example, I cannot play golds first. It's an archetype that is dependent on bronze cards setting up the field. If I play any gold vampire card first that card would lose any points I could have gained, that's an immediate loss no question. So now what you would be telling me is not to play vampires against Clog and that's the problem. It suppresses any variety and there are numerous mechanics that also rely on bronze setup. That's the nature of the game.
So my pointslam monster deck plays very poorly against your vampire deck. It’s just so unfair that you can drain my units while growing yours. And there is no card order I can even consider that prevents this — every card in my deck can be bled.

Therefore vampires ought to be nerfed to the ground — otherwise my deck variety is unfairly limited.
 

Guest 4375874

Guest
If there is any archetype that causes you undue trouble, you should first look at your play against it, then your own deck before you complain about someone else’s deck. There are legitimate complaints about cards that are just too strong or archetypes that degrade the quality of the game, but most of the time, I find these objections to just be whining by people unwilling to admit their favorite deck (usually one that is itself very binary) has a bad match up.

Clog is rarely an issue if your deck does not overly rely upon drawing narrow card packages whose provision cost is enabled by an excess of very low provision, basically useless cards. It is not an issue if you do not rely on draw or tutor dependent combinations. It is not an issue if your deck allows some flexibility in card order. Decks that sacrifice balance for strength deserve poor matchups.
This is such a bizarre comment. You basically just summarized how the game is designed to be played and said that it's useless. The game is draw dependent, it's a card game. I'm no fan of net decks but balance has nothing to do with it. You're entire comment ignored the problem and offered no solution beyond.... "maybe the decks are too binary". Yea....that's the problem :coolstory: Anyway have a good one lads
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So my pointslam monster deck plays very poorly against your vampire deck. It’s just so unfair that you can drain my units while growing yours. And there is no card order I can even consider that prevents this — every card in my deck can be bled.

Therefore vampires ought to be nerfed to the ground — otherwise my deck variety is unfairly limited.
I clearly outlined a scenario. Rather than deflect, what's the solution you are offering in this scenario against a clog deck?
 

Mi_V

Forum regular
Thanks but I'm not interested in streamers, I'm aware of what works and what doesn't. Those are controlled situations with specific decks, I'm not building a deck to counter one faction/leader nor should anyone have to, that's kind of the point. If you can't see the flaw in that statement "They win all the time"? then I don't know what to tell you.

The problem with clog is already obvious. Let's use an example...If I'm playing a pure vampire deck for example, I cannot play golds first. It's an archetype that is dependent on bronze cards setting up the field. If I play any gold vampire card first that card would lose any points I could have gained, that's an immediate loss no question. So now what you would be telling me is not to play vampires against Clog and that's the problem. It suppresses any variety and there are numerous mechanics that also rely on bronze setup. That's the nature of the game.
l learn from people who play better than me, so I watch streamer and I can ask them for my gwent problem and some of them are entertaining and fun to watch.

Let's say I play a vampire deck against clog deck. How do I counter them. What is my win condition: I need long round 3. What is opponent win condition: short r2 or r3 with Kolgrim protected by defender. How about I open with defender r1 to protect my bronzes, try to win r1 then dry pass r2. What if I don't draw defender r1? I play the beast or Oriana with 1 or 2 charges leader or even Elder. What if you can't even draw any golds r1? discard bronzes! Fight back in long r2. You don't want short r2 if your hand full of bronzes and you lose r1 anyway. So play to your win condition.
 
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l learn from people who play better than me
This is how I found out about the discard strategy against clog; a streamer I like to watch simply discarded three of his worst cards R1, passed at 7, and did end up winning the game thanks to that.

Of course, people are different, and watching someone else do things isn't effective for everyone. But for visual learners it definitely works great.
 

ya1

Forum regular
Play around it, play cards that they don't want to put in your top deck: your gold cards, even consider discard your bronzes if you on red coin.

And if you're not on red coin? That's what I'm talking about. If the only strategy against an archetype is "be lucky" then it's not a well designed archetype. Or at least not designed to be mainstream.

What if you can't even draw any golds r1? discard bronzes! Fight back in r2.

Yes, I think I've seen that guide, TLG channel, yes? Problem is by the end of R2, you've already lost 3 mulligans and now you're getting clogged for real. So you're going into R3 with 3 trash cards (unless you're lucky with Maxii or they misdraw). And if you're on blue you're down another card.

Truth is it all comes down to winning that R1, period. I'm not saying it's overpowered or nothing like that. Just dead-dumb-RNG. This is worse than Lippy.
 

Mi_V

Forum regular
Truth is it all comes down to winning that R1, period. I'm not saying it's overpowered or nothing like that. Just dead-dumb-RNG. This is worse than Lippy.
You win some and you lose some. Even if you play against a non clog deck, sometimes you don't draw all the cards you need to win the match. Yes there is RNG but if you a skillful player, you will climb. Clog players has their winning chance, you have your winning chance. And if clog deck has higher winning chance than other decks then everyone and their mother plays clog. Let's say you auto lose to clog but auto win to other decks then you will climb.
 
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Guest 4375874

Guest
You win some and you lose some. Even if you play against a non clog deck, sometimes you don't draw all the cards you need to win the match. Yes there is RNG but if you a skillful player, you will climb. Clog players has their winning chance, you have your winning chance. And if clog deck has higher winning chance than other decks then everyone and their mother plays clog. Let's say you auto lose to clog but auto win to other decks then you will climb.
You do not have the same chance when one player can alter what you will draw and you cannot, that's just not how probability works. Apply it to the simplest card game you can think of and it'll amount to the same thing. It really isn't complicated, clog does the exact opposite of what you are suggesting. It tilts the chance in the players direction removing any skill requirement.

Frankly I'm not sure how clog players feel accomplished, by using the deck they are literally saying they lack the skill to beat the deck their opponent has so to win they'll prevent them from using it. If I beat someone I can be confident it's because I was the most skilled player in that particular match.
 

ya1

Forum regular
You win some and you lose some. Even if you play against a non clog deck, sometimes you don't draw all the cards you need to win the match. Yes there is RNG but if you a skillful player, you will climb. Clog players has their winning chance, you have your winning chance. And if clog deck has higher winning chance than other decks then everyone and their mother plays clog. Let's say you auto lose to clog but auto win to other decks then you will climb.
I'm not saying that you cannot climb because of clog. All I'm saying that this archetype is not what I'd like to see as the main archetype in NG, and most people I talked to agree. I'd prefer the classic greed countering NG control. Or anything else. Just not the artificially increasing the luck factor by decreasing the number of cards you can draw. This is fine as a meme archetype, like rat clog and stuff, not a main thing devs are planning for NG.
 
The decks clog most impacts are decks that absolutely need to draw very expensive gold cards. They need to draw these cards because they finance the provision cost of these cards by taking a lot of low quality, low price cards.

Without low value cards to copy, clog is ineffective. At the same time, these polarized decks that must draw their expensive golds are precisely what makes games so draw dependent. “He who draws the most gold cards wins.” Is a maxim that only holds when the top gold cards are significantly better than the other cards in a deck. In short, clog counters the most egregious RNG based strategies. As such, it does more to counter RNG than it contributes to it.

Now I will agree that Kolgrim specifically does increase RNG. But that is the destroy or lose nature of the card. Kolgrim does not clog himself.
 
You do not have the same chance when one player can alter what you will draw and you cannot, that's just not how probability works. Apply it to the simplest card game you can think of and it'll amount to the same thing. It really isn't complicated, clog does the exact opposite of what you are suggesting. It tilts the chance in the players direction removing any skill requirement.

Frankly I'm not sure how clog players feel accomplished, by using the deck they are literally saying they lack the skill to beat the deck their opponent has so to win they'll prevent them from using it. If I beat someone I can be confident it's because I was the most skilled player in that particular match.
But isn't building an effective deck part of the "skill" in CCGs in general? It's no more braindead than any other netdeck or OP combo (lippy, traps, SK warriors, viy, NR poop swarms, etc). I know it feels like there are just tons and tons of cards available for every faction and ideally everyone should be able to craft a unique and effective deck, but in reality there just isn't really that much choice. Each faction just has a few archetypes that actually work and not much else. Deck manipulation is one of NG's. Just because your opponent has prevented you from pulling off your desired combo doesn't mean they are braindead or stupid and it certainly doesn't mean they are a worse player than you are. And it doesn't mean that anyone who beats you with a strategy you don't particularly like needs their cards nerfed or their intelligence insulted.
 
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