Poison and Harmony

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Harmony units should not apply poison. This makes them a dual purpose engine with close to no counters (there are no good purify cards at the moment).
Fran has more control options than some control decks due to the poison+oak+lock+4dmg+sheldon cards. Fran dwarves has even more.
Thoughts?
 
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Thoughts?

In a lot of cases you might want to hold Poison until you find a suitable target. That means you'll lose on Harmony every turn you don't play the card. So, it's okay, the Harmony and Poison package. The problems lies with Fran and Call of the Forest.
 

rrc

Forum veteran
While we are on this subject, has anyone considered/realised that Dryad Ranger is a bad design? It is applying poison, so the intention is to double-poison and kill the target. In that case, why should it do 2 damage? That 2 damages are wasted points, right? She should be: 5 Provisions; Harmony; 5 Strength; Give poison to an enemy unit. But this would make her a much better Fledgeling. So, probably 4 Strength and 1 damage to an enemy (which is saying that she is worth 4 strength body) would be the balance? I don't know. But her current deal "2 damage" is a oxymoronic ability completely against the principle of poison mechanics. In most of the cases she is a 3 strength 5 provisions card which gives poison, which is just bad.

"But what if, the unit gets purified? Then she is 5 for 5, right?" can be one argument. If she has to be 5 for 5, she can just be 5 for 5 and the 2 damage can be removed and her strength can be increased. All I am saying is a poison giving card doing damage is a bad design IMHO. And Dryad Ranger is the only card which does that and she has to be changed.

In the unlikely even that someone comes up with "But Devil's Puffball also does 2 damage and applies poison" question, the obvious answer is Devil's Puffball has a deathblow effect. So, if there is a 2 strength unit, DPB can be used on that unit to apply poison to the adjacent units. If Dryad Ranger also has a deathblow effect, then and only then the two damage would make sense. In its current state, Dryad Ranger is a poorly designed card due to its 2 damage.
 
While we are on this subject, has anyone considered/realised that Dryad Ranger is a bad design?
[...]
Long story short, you want to buff an already overtuned card in a more than obviously overtuned faction ?
 

Breli

Forum regular
While we are on this subject, has anyone considered/realised that Dryad Ranger is a bad design?

I agree.

I would like to see a change like:

Deploy melee: damage a unit by 2 and gain harmony.
Deploy ranged: give poison and boost self by 2 or 3.

As a side note: anyone remember how harmony, poison and dryads were universally considered to be trash just a few months ago? LOL! Now the forums/reddit are all full about complaints about the „objectively overtuned faction“ ;)

Next month it will be whining again ...
 
[...]
As a side note: anyone remember how harmony, poison and dryads were universally considered to be trash just a few months ago? LOL! Now the forums/reddit are all full about complaints about the „objectively overtuned faction“ ;)

Next month it will be whining again ...
Recently every Month has had an overtuned faction.
And the general ban on Fran in Challenger (as well as the Aretuza Metagame Snapshot of Fran being the only Tier 1 deck) is proof enough of that.
And yes, I do remember Dryads being considered trash before Harmony and the huge wave of Dryads were added.

I agree.

I would like to see a change like:

Deploy melee: damage a unit by 2 and gain harmony.
Deploy ranged: give poison and boost self by 2 or 3.
[...]
I agree, in fact that is a change I would like to see.
Being an armor piercing, two shot card that doubles as an engine is silly, however with your suggestion the card is versatile, yet not as silly.
It being a Poison card, which, in case you cannot find a "Poison-pair", can still be used as large starting body engine, would be nice.

Edit: It is funny how it (often) takes large changes to realize just how good something actually is.
Just take Dryad Ranger as an example, it only really came into the focus when Fran turned into basically a tier 0.5 leader (by regular tier-list standards).
Or take Fisstech as an example, where people quite a while after the Novigrad expansions realized it is good and it currently found its way into most DJ decks (according to my information).
 
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has anyone considered/realised that Dryad Ranger is a bad design? It is applying poison, so the intention is to double-poison and kill the target. In that case, why should it do 2 damage? That 2 damages are wasted points, right?

I understand your reasoning but I disagree with your conclusion that Dryad Ranger is a bad design. Quite the opposite, I think it's one of the more interestingly designed cards out there because of its flexibility. You can use her early to snipe a unit, when you need the damage (or you no longer have access to double poison) and maybe get some Harmony procs or wait and try to double tap a juicy target. While it's true that you "waste" 2 damage, it's the price you have to pay for the flexibility of the card. Forest Whisperer is boring in comparison.
 
In a lot of cases you might want to hold Poison until you find a suitable target. That means you'll lose on Harmony every turn you don't play the card. So, it's okay, the Harmony and Poison package. The problems lies with Fran and Call of the Forest.
Too many things give posion that can easily secure your R1 without the usage of major gold cards.
The whole design of poison simply killing any unit and at the same time procing crazy harmony synergy is just silly. It should be either one or the other.
I would also be fine if poison is reworked in a way.
For example:
if you double poison a unit, it loses half of its points (same way as ulfedin works). Poison also can't be removed with purify, but cannot be applied to shielded units. This way it punishes tall units but does not ultimately remove engines like crazy. It would also make it possible to apply poison 3 times to a unit to halve its power 2 times in a round.
Isn't this way more interesting than simply gimping a unit out?
 
Too many things give posion that can easily secure your R1 without the usage of major gold cards.
The whole design of poison simply killing any unit and at the same time procing crazy harmony synergy is just silly. It should be either one or the other.
I would also be fine if poison is reworked in a way.
For example:
if you double poison a unit, it loses half of its points (same way as ulfedin works). Poison also can't be removed with purify, but cannot be applied to shielded units. This way it punishes tall units but does not ultimately remove engines like crazy. It would also make it possible to apply poison 3 times to a unit to halve its power 2 times in a round.
Isn't this way more interesting than simply gimping a unit out?
The design of poison means that you have to have 2 instances of applying it, however having to invest 2 cards you have to get the value of a second card as well, so at best units apply poison.
The problem is if you get a 5 provision bronze, which, in case you get both halves, equals a non-banishing, creature only korathi heatwave + a 3 point body waters of brokilon, which is absolutely ludicrous when one thinks about it.
One can argue that those have to be played in a slightly unideal way, however with engines in mind that point quickly becomes moot and the decks relying on engines (which the rebalance should actually have enabled to be at least mostly safe) are easily identified.
Beyond that, removing a unit early on, even if it is not a perfect target and getting 2 3 point Fledgelings is just insane.
 

rrc

Forum veteran
Long story short, you want to buff an already overtuned card in a more than obviously overtuned faction ?
ST is not the overtuned faction, Francesca is. When did you last see an Eithne or Brouver (unless you played against me when I tried different decks from these leaders)? When did you last see Filandravel? Or the other leader.. who is he? what is he called? The one with traps? I don't know and probably no one knows.. None of the other leaders can even be considered as Tier 3. When Francesca is squashed next season (rightfully so), ST will go back to its "yeaaah... it is somewhat playable.. not a very bad faction"
And yes, I do remember Dryads being considered trash before Harmony and the huge wave of Dryads were added.
Even after huge wave of Dryads were added, they were weak and horrible and pathetic. After Weeping Willow poison/harmony support and Water's change they are played for a month.
I understand your reasoning but I disagree with your conclusion that Dryad Ranger is a bad design. Quite the opposite, I think it's one of the more interestingly designed cards out there because of its flexibility. You can use her early to snipe a unit, when you need the damage (or you no longer have access to double poison) and maybe get some Harmony procs or wait and try to double tap a juicy target. While it's true that you "waste" 2 damage, it's the price you have to pay for the flexibility of the card. Forest Whisperer is boring in comparison.
2 point disadvantage for the flexibility may not be good enough in the coming meta. Francesca is making all these mediocre cards look powerful and once she faces nerf hammer, I am worried about what would happen to ST. I agree that Forest Whisperer is a very bad card. 4 for 5 giving poison while every other poison giving card breaks even (except for Dryad Ranger, but she has harmony, so..). Not even once she was moved to ranged row to give shield after poisoning. NOT. EVEN. ONCE. If she is played in Ranged, she is a 4 for 5 Order to give shield, which is on-HC-arrival-bronze-level. Overall, Whisperers are pathetic card (I have created a few posts about her) CDPR gives the blind eye.
 
ST is not the overtuned faction, Francesca is. When did you last see an Eithne or Brouver (unless you played against me when I tried different decks from these leaders)? When did you last see Filandravel? Or the other leader.. who is he? what is he called? The one with traps? I don't know and probably no one knows.. None of the other leaders can even be considered as Tier 3. When Francesca is squashed next season (rightfully so), ST will go back to its "yeaaah... it is somewhat playable.. not a very bad faction"

Even after huge wave of Dryads were added, they were weak and horrible and pathetic. After Weeping Willow poison/harmony support and Water's change they are played for a month.

2 point disadvantage for the flexibility may not be good enough in the coming meta. Francesca is making all these mediocre cards look powerful and once she faces nerf hammer, I am worried about what would happen to ST. I agree that Forest Whisperer is a very bad card. 4 for 5 giving poison while every other poison giving card breaks even (except for Dryad Ranger, but she has harmony, so..). Not even once she was moved to ranged row to give shield after poisoning. NOT. EVEN. ONCE. If she is played in Ranged, she is a 4 for 5 Order to give shield, which is on-HC-arrival-bronze-level. Overall, Whisperers are pathetic card (I have created a few posts about her) CDPR gives the blind eye.
ST is overtuned, Willow, Ranger and some other cards are overtuned, I am not saying by much, however a 1 provision/point nerf would sound only fair, given their power level.
Also I did see a lot of Brouver as well, not as many as Fran and that one is not even remotely as toxic as Fran, however it should still be pretty clear that a few cards in ST are overtuned.
Willow, the Decree on Crack and Dryad Ranger are the most obvious ones, however if those 3 would be hit, alongside Fran, the faction should be perfectly fine.

Edit: Also the fact that ST is the only faction that does not need Portal, because it has non-brickable versions of that (and 2 at that), should already be a sign that something is wrong.
 

rrc

Forum veteran
ST is overtuned, Willow, Ranger and some other cards are overtuned, I am not saying by much, however a 1 provision/point nerf would sound only fair, given their power level.
Also I did see a lot of Brouver as well, not as many as Fran and that one is not even remotely as toxic as Fran, however it should still be pretty clear that a few cards in ST are overtuned.
Willow, the Decree on Crack and Dryad Ranger are the most obvious ones, however if those 3 would be hit, alongside Fran, the faction should be perfectly fine.

Edit: Also the fact that ST is the only faction that does not need Portal, because it has non-brickable versions of that (and 2 at that), should already be a sign that something is wrong.
Decree On Crack :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
Can you guess which cards I am talking about: Restore on Crack, Bekker's Dark Mirror on Crack, Heatwave on Crack, Necromancy on Crack.
Faction specific cards are always better than Neutral cards of same ability. While Decree on Crack gives +2, Restore on Crack gives +5, Bekker's Dark Mirror on Crack gives +3, Heatwave on Crack gives +1 and enables a lot of potential, Necromany on Crack gives +1 and two copies of a gold card.

I agree that CallOfForest is a pretty strong card and is in almost every ST deck, so are the other cards I had mentioned. Faction specific cards should be more powerful than the neutral version of them.
 
Decree On Crack :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
Can you guess which cards I am talking about: Restore on Crack, Bekker's Dark Mirror on Crack, Heatwave on Crack, Necromancy on Crack.
Faction specific cards are always better than Neutral cards of same ability. While Decree on Crack gives +2, Restore on Crack gives +5, Bekker's Dark Mirror on Crack gives +3, Heatwave on Crack gives +1 and enables a lot of potential, Necromany on Crack gives +1 and two copies of a gold card.

I agree that CallOfForest is a pretty strong card and is in almost every ST deck, so are the other cards I had mentioned. Faction specific cards should be more powerful than the neutral version of them.
Of course faction specific cards should at the very least be a bit better, however not +2, better tag and synergy on a broken leader, when I said "on crack" I did not mean better, I meant a busted version of that, the faction bonus does not account to that much of a bonus.
 

rrc

Forum veteran
Of course faction specific cards should at the very least be a bit better, however not +2, better tag and synergy on a broken leader, when I said "on crack" I did not mean better, I meant a busted version of that, the faction bonus does not account to that much of a bonus.
It is slightly off-topic and I am sorry about it, but you indicated that +2 is huge, so, what is your opinion about Sigrfrda'sRite whic is a 9 Provision Restore (which is 14 provisions; +5) and Restore which is a 6 Provisions BekkerDarkMirror (which is 9; +3) and Freya's Blessing which is a bronze card of Necromancy (with +1)?

+2 is not busted when compared to other faction cards. How does that Tag even matter in Francesca's context? Francesca will probably go back to 13 provisions or changed completely and she is currently OP. But you saying CoF and DryadRangers are broken is wrong IMO.
 
It is slightly off-topic and I am sorry about it, but you indicated that +2 is huge, so, what is your opinion about Sigrfrda'sRite whic is a 9 Provision Restore (which is 14 provisions; +5) and Restore which is a 6 Provisions BekkerDarkMirror (which is 9; +3) and Freya's Blessing which is a bronze card of Necromancy (with +1)?

+2 is not busted when compared to other faction cards. How does that Tag even matter in Francesca's context? Francesca will probably go back to 13 provisions or changed completely and she is currently OP. But you saying CoF and DryadRangers are broken is wrong IMO.
Restore is far from Berrek, you lose the offensive value, and restore is bad on its own because you double down on a single card which is prone to the 99999 methods of removing tall in this meta. Restore sucks tbh.
 
It is slightly off-topic and I am sorry about it, but you indicated that +2 is huge, so, what is your opinion about Sigrfrda'sRite whic is a 9 Provision Restore (which is 14 provisions; +5) and Restore which is a 6 Provisions BekkerDarkMirror (which is 9; +3) and Freya's Blessing which is a bronze card of Necromancy (with +1)?

+2 is not busted when compared to other faction cards. How does that Tag even matter in Francesca's context? Francesca will probably go back to 13 provisions or changed completely and she is currently OP. But you saying CoF and DryadRangers are broken is wrong IMO.
Rite is ok and to be honest about noone plays Restore anyways, so being better than an actually overprized card is more difficult to answer.
Restore is also a weird case when noone seriously plays Bekkers Dark Mirror.
Freya's Blessing is a Necromancy that has 1 more provision and does not banish (which is often not important), however again I cannot say that I see Necromancy on a regular basis.

As for Call of the Forest, Forest can hit the largest non-synergy unit in the game (Oak), can be pulled by Fauve, which does matter, given that Call is the second best target for Fauve, which has further synergy with Oak.
I feel the card would be fine at that and adding an additional 2 points on top of that feel excessive.
Not to mention Fran can target it, you may disregard this based on potential changes for Fran, however if Fran can still target Call that point remains.
Given how Fran limits the pool of new expansions I would actually want herto be completely changed or Provision restricted.
On top, of course, of the provision nerf, in case she does not get completely reworked.
A leader being able to re-use (almost) non-brickable Portals is just too much and if the faction is able to play 2 of these to begin with, using a third copy is completely busted.

I agree that the above mentioned cards are huge steps up from the neutral options, however the neutral versions are (for better or worse (propably better)) too expensive to be played at all.
Just take Restore as an example, the only "serious" decks I saw that were serious about Restore were all-in decks (actually the most are decks Swim made).
Bekker is not played at all and unlike Restore can be used offensively to instantly remove massively boosted units.
Freya is also a weird case, given that Skellige always had that card and the card is propably the most iconic card in the faction, however a 1 provision boost is not that much.

I propably should have been more precise, however +2 points on a card that is good enough to be used during a finisher is completely different from low commitment cards that are low tempo anyways.
 
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I had bekkers in my mosters deck. It was kind of meme deck, but was fun when it worked out.

I used caranthir to spawn 1 power old speartip and then boost it by 24 with bekkers, that combo was nuts and it got me a few insta forfeits. Than incantation in order to eat caldwell and then play regular speartip, then ozrell for caldwell and a bunch of thrive to it... Was insane when it worked out, but than people learned that when somebody plays caranthir on speartip there is something sinister going on, so they started killing it and enabling bigger ozrell in the process :LOL: Oh, and whispering hillock for even more memes :ROFLMAO: But was very draw dependent and expremely vulnerable to big unit removal and resets.
 
Poison is another one of those bad binary mechanics where a unit gets "destroyed" although in two steps, which is not difficult at all. Now you need to have artifact removal and purify. These crappy mechanics aggravate the already existing rock-paper-scissors match-up and card draw RNG. Yuck. Why is all this binary and RNG-dependent stuff introduced in HC? Please bring back more strategic and calculative play, like Armor (used to be). I hope we're not getting cards like "Destroy a unit with armor".

Also the boosting of ST is way too obvious and easy. Sure, just create a bunch of cards that allow ST to spawn all these mid-strength, very hard to remove duo-unit engines to fill a row for Great Oak. It's just so obvious, making it lame.
 

rrc

Forum veteran
Rite is ok and to be honest about noone plays Restore anyways, so being better than an actually overprized card is more difficult to answer.
Restore is also a weird case when noone seriously plays Bekkers Dark Mirror.
Freya's Blessing is a Necromancy that has 1 more provision and does not banish (which is often not important), however again I cannot say that I see Necromancy on a regular basis.

As for Call of the Forest, Forest can hit the largest non-synergy unit in the game (Oak), can be pulled by Fauve, which does matter, given that Call is the second best target for Fauve, which has further synergy with Oak.
I feel the card would be fine at that and adding an additional 2 points on top of that feel excessive.
Not to mention Fran can target it, you may disregard this based on potential changes for Fran, however if Fran can still target Call that point remains.
Given how Fran limits the pool of new expansions I would actually want herto be completely changed or Provision restricted.
On top, of course, of the provision nerf, in case she does not get completely reworked.
A leader being able to re-use (almost) non-brickable Portals is just too much and if the faction is able to play 2 of these to begin with, using a third copy is completely busted.

I agree that the above mentioned cards are huge steps up from the neutral options, however the neutral versions are (for better or worse (propably better)) too expensive to be played at all.
Just take Restore as an example, the only "serious" decks I saw that were serious about Restore were all-in decks (actually the most are decks Swim made).
Bekker is not played at all and unlike Restore can be used offensively to instantly remove massively boosted units.
Freya is also a weird case, given that Skellige always had that card and the card is propably the most iconic card in the faction, however a 1 provision boost is not that much.

I propably should have been more precise, however +2 points on a card that is good enough to be used during a finisher is completely different from low commitment cards that are low tempo anyways.
Thanks and Respect for replying politely and on point!

I believe that you mean WaterOfBrokilon as the non-brickable Portal. If that is the case, you are massively overlooking one aspect. Portal is used for thinning the deck where as WoB is not. With portal you have effectively played 3 cards in total, but with WoB you have played only one card. Double WoB by Francesca is scary, I agree. Water is a 11 provision card which brings two engines and 8 points on board. Water on its own is good and just and fine (as most of the times, one of the engines is killed the next turn and the other, the next turn after that). It is the double water that is powerful. I don't know what could be the solution. CoF, if it is just play any ST unit (without the +2 boost), it should then be 9 or less provisions, otherwise, it is just a horrible Decree. Personally I feel that CoF is good as it is. It is Francesca who makes these good cards seem broken. Lets wait and see what CDPR does to her this month end.
 
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