Poison In NG Could Be a Future Archetype

[OG.laloquaint]

So with the new update, Nilfgaard got two cards with the Poison mechanic. Those are Rot Tosser and Fangs of the Empire. I made variations of this deck and used it countless of times and came to a conclusion: Rot Tosser still sucks. In general, poison in NG is hard to set up because of many different variables. First of all, you always need TWO poison cards in hand (Unless you use Emhyr on Fangs) to get any value. Rot Tosser is almost always countered. Both cards offer very little tempo. In one of the decks, I changed Rot Tosser for Devil's Puffball and it works better but it suffers from low tempo as well. After enough games, I think poison should be something that Nilfgaard should have as a full-fledged archetype because it makes sense. I know ST has it as well and that's okay. Anyhow, to support this archetype without adding new cards...Also, assume all major changes received proper balancing of Strength and/or Provisions.

Changes I'd Like To See:

1. Fangs of the Empire from 3 strength to 4.
2. Rot Tosser strength from 3 to 4. Add a Deathwish to Cow Carcass that poisons the lowest enemy on the board.
3. Changing Cadeverine to "Zeal. Damage an Enemy by 1 and Poison it. Charges: 1. Gain an extra charge if Auckes, Serrit or Letho are on the board." (Nobody plays this card and I think it's literally Poison.)
4. Viper Witcher - Damage an enemy by 2. If that unit has poison, repeat deploy ability. Deathblow: Poison an adjacent Enemy. (It would also get rid of the broken ability it has.)
5. Devil's Puffball, though Neutral, could also be changed to do 3 damage instead or lowering the cost of it because it only does 2 damage.
6. Alchemist - Melee: Purify a unit. Ranged: Give Vitality to an Ally for 2 turns; double this amount if there is a unit with Poison. (The card sees no play honestly.)
7. Magne Division - If an enemy has Poison, boost self every Allied turn. (Engine change because frankly, the current card is very awkward and is only used to fill up a deck.)

Changes I'm Unsure About:

1. Letho of Gulet - Deploy: Poison an enemy unit and self. If another Witcher is played, Purify Letho. (The locking and damaging part with Auckes and Serrit would stay.)
2. Auckes - Adding Poison to the initial unit he locks.
3. Serrit - Adding a Deathblow ability that poisons adjacent units.
4. Usurper - Poison an Enemy unit and Give it Bleeding for 2 turns. Charges: 2. (I think changing his ability would be very wise. A lot of people dislike his ability.)

New Cards for This Archetype (Couldn't Help It):

1. Boost an Enemy by 2 and give it Poison. Deathblow: Boost self by 2. (Knight, Agent, Gold)
2. Poison Dart - Deploy: Damage an Enemy unit by 2 and give it Poison. Order: Give an Enemy unit Bleeding if another unit on that side of the board has Poison. (Bronze, Artifact)
3. Toxic Beverage - Boost an Ally unit by 6 and give it Poison. (This card's provisions would cost 5 because you're risking a tall unit with Poison; Bronze, Special.)
4. Assassin - Damage a unit by three, if it survives, give it Poison. (Bronze)

Since CDPR is working on changing Nilfgaard, I seriously hope they introduce something similar to this. If they added two poison cards to NG, I think that is a sort of tease of what they want to do with the faction. I can honestly say NG is in a rough spot currently and it needs some love.

 

[Draconifors]

I definitely like the idea of Poison being more of a thing for Nilfgaard. The faction is all about messing with the opponent's strategy (Assimilate and Seize, to a lesser extent Reveal), and Poison would fit in perfectly.

I actually had a thought, not long before I saw this post, that Viper Witchers would be a good card to add Poison to. I mean, they're called Viper Witchers.

I really like the idea of cards that Boost and Poison, too. Treachery when done on allies, assassination (attempt) when done on enemies.

 

[OG.laloquaint]

I actually had a thought, not long before I saw this post, that Viper Witchers would be a good card to add Poison to. I mean, they're called Viper Witchers.

That's funny because I literally thought about that while making this post. I originally just started with Cadaverine and realized the Viper Witcher connection soon after haha. Thank you btw, let's hope NG is made great again.

 

[Wonderboy8700]

That's funny because I literally thought about that while making this post. I originally just started with Cadaverine and realized the Viper Witcher connection soon after haha. Thank you btw, let's hope NG is made great again.

I actually really hate the idea. TBH I hated that they even added fangs of the empire much less changed rot tosser. ST has so few unique mechanics, (handbuffing, harmony, and single race synergy,) that taking away poison would be too much. It's one thing to make a neutral card that if used twice gives other factions poison, it is another to give it to NG. NG has so many unique abilities (spy's, reveal, assimilate, transform, a leader with sieze, mill, etc...) They need to flesh out these abilities rather than start taking away from ST.

 

[BrokeCiri]

NG Archetypes

1. Deck, Hand, and Graveyard manipulation/control. Assimilate relies to much on create and copy mechanic. Create is not healthy for the game!
Hot fix for Traheaern. Deploy. Look at the top 3 cards of your opponent's deck. Order. Move 1 card to the graveyard
Same concept but can be countered. This way you can get info and if not denied can activate the order. Deploy on him is too much especially if he finds your core card.

2. Enhance the reveal mechanic. Revealed cards should stay revealed/face-up and can be tracked

3. Make more support/synergy cards for spy archetype. Only the enforcers actually benefit from the archetype. Bring Xavier to NG faction or make a spy version of him "Xavier: Inflitrator"

4. Poison is a nice mechanic for NG but i believe that they should fix the older archetypes first before moving to the new ones. About your suggested rework on Letho, Serrit, and Auckes they are in a perfect state right now because their ability and lore kinda matches

 

[thetruerenter]

-Create is not healthy for the game!-

If you're only tumbling about how to DESTROY everything in order to win rather then being CREATIVE and build, then you are right.

 

[Iuliandrei]

Letho of Gulet - Deploy: Poison an enemy unit and self. If another Witcher is played, Purify Letho. (The locking and damaging part with Auckes and Serrit would stay.)

I actually had the same idea, Letho is in a strange spot right now because it does nothing on his own, but why poison self, makes no sense and it's pointless complexity.
Also i like the idea of Cadaverine to work with poisons, i previously suggested to work with witcher but at this point anything is better than tactics.

 

[FG15-ISH7EG]

I actually really hate the idea. TBH I hated that they even added fangs of the empire much less changed rot tosser. ST has so few unique mechanics, (handbuffing, harmony, and single race synergy,) that taking away poison would be too much. It's one thing to make a neutral card that if used twice gives other factions poison, it is another to give it to NG. NG has so many unique abilities (spy's, reveal, assimilate, transform, a leader with sieze, mill, etc...) They need to flesh out these abilities rather than start taking away from ST.

I have to agree. Poison should be more of a ST thing and fits better for them.

 

[OG.laloquaint]

They need to flesh out these abilities rather than start taking away from ST.

No yeah, I understand but I wouldn't want ST to get Poison completely taken away from them. I think both factions should have it but ST's version would just be inferior. NG doesn't really have an archetype that is completely fleshed out besides Reveal and Tactics, I'd say. You kind of just always have to add filler cards to everything else.

Post automatically merged: Apr 1, 2019

I actually had the same idea, Letho is in a strange spot right now because it does nothing on his own, but why poison self, makes no sense and it's pointless complexity.

I believe he poisons himself in the Witcher 3 because he wants to disappear since he's always getting assassins sent after him. It's not only after Geralt helps him that he reconsiders that.

If I'm wrong, then yeah the ability is stupid lol.

Post automatically merged: Apr 1, 2019

-Create is not healthy for the game!-

If you're only tumbling about how to DESTROY everything in order to win rather then being CREATIVE and build, then you are right.

I'm not sure what to make of this lol.

 

[Draconifors]

No yeah, I understand but I wouldn't want ST to get Poison completely taken away from them.

Bart no elfie fan. But poison good. Poison with elfies sharey, okay would be.

 

[Xanaroth]

There are some interesting ideas in here. Sadly they have gone nowhere.

So allow me to resurrect this thread and share some of my own ideas regarding a Poison Archetype.

Please keep in mind that my design is based on the Gwent build 4.0.3, which as of this moment is the current build of Gwent.

Suggested Changes:

◦ Fangs of the Empire

▪ Reduce Strength from 4 to 1.​

▪ Add “Spy” Key word.​

◦ Cow Carcass

▪ Add “Deathwish: Damage adjacent Units by 3” to current ability.​

▪ Add Poisoned Status to the Unit.​

◦ Treason

▪ Change Ability to: “Seize an Enemy Unit with three power or less and give adjacent​

units Poison.”​

▪ Increase Provisions from 7 to 10.​

◦ Cadaverine

▪ Change Ability to: “Zeal. Order: The next time an Enemy Unit takes damage, poison​

it. Charge 1. Gain 1 charge whenever you play a tactic card.”​

▪ Increase Provisions from 7 to 8.​

◦ Viper Witcher

▪ Move old ability to another Unit (possibly Infiltrator)​

▪ Change Ability to: “Deploy: Damage an Enemy Unit by 2. If the target is poisoned,​

Damage it by 4 instead.​

▪ Decrease Strength from 4 to 3.​

▪ Decrease Provisions from 6 to 5.​

◦ Letho of Gulet

▪ Change Ability to: “Deploy: Damage an Enemy Unit by 3. If Auckes is in your hand,​

Lock an Enemy Unit and damage it by 3. If Serrit is in your hand, Poison an Enemy​

Unit and damage it by 3. If Serrit and Auckes are in your hand, Destroy an Enemy​

Unit.”​

▪ Decrease Strength from 6 to 5.​

◦ Serrit

▪ Change ability to: “Deploy: Damage an Enemy Unit by 3. If Auckes is in your hand,​

Poison an Enemy Unit and damage it by 3.”​

▪ Decrease Strength from 5 to 4.​

Please feel free to check the attached File for more information on my design.

 

[Imm0rtaleflame]

Meanwhile poisson Bomb got nerfed.
Before this nerf, NG poison could win matches in low tier leagues, but was more like a tier 3/4-ish

 

[Archan6el]

Poison is another bad binary mechanic. Destroy any unit with two cheap bronze cards that have a body, Harmony, coins, whatever. Crap and OP design, even more when compared to the Purify cards. RNG gambling stuff again.

 

[Xanaroth]

Poison is another bad binary mechanic. Destroy any unit with two cheap bronze cards that have a body, Harmony, coins, whatever. Crap and OP design, even more when compared to the Purify cards. RNG gambling stuff again.

While I do understand why someone might be upset with the Poison mechanic I also think that it has a place in the Game, as shown by the fact that there are people interested in expanding it into a more reliable mechanic or archetype. And just because one might not like a mechanic, doesn´t mean that this mechanic is thus bad by design.

With Poison in particular, the issue might not be with the mechanic itself, but with it´s counters and alternatives. Since CDPR is currently reducing the overall damage being dealt within the game. Poison simply becomes more powerful by comparison. Especially against taller Units. The other issue might actually result from the current state of Purify. As outlined in the File I provided, establishing Poison as an Archetype might necessitate more ways to Purify Units or maybe even a rework of Purify as a mechanic. But such a rework would require CDPR to also look at other Statuses like Shield, Bounty, etc.

Also as a bit of general advice. If you want to display that you dislike a mechanic or design you might want to consider adding an explanation why the mechanic is "bad" or "OP". Maybe even giving an Example to make it easier for other to understand the issue and come up with a creative solution to the issue.

And complaining about "RNG gambling stuff" in a card game, which by design has an Element of Chance and Luck since Cards are drawn from a List of possible Cards, thus allowing for bad luck to screw with you is not really precise if you ask me. So again, without wanting to seem condescending, I would suggest to consider giving a more detailed explanation of the issue.

 

[Archan6el]

While I do understand why someone might be upset with the Poison mechanic I also think that it has a place in the Game, as shown by the fact that there are people interested in expanding it into a more reliable mechanic or archetype. And just because one might not like a mechanic, doesn´t mean that this mechanic is thus bad by design.

With Poison in particular, the issue might not be with the mechanic itself, but with it´s counters and alternatives. Since CDPR is currently reducing the overall damage being dealt within the game. Poison simply becomes more powerful by comparison. Especially against taller Units. The other issue might actually result from the current state of Purify. As outlined in the File I provided, establishing Poison as an Archetype might necessitate more ways to Purify Units or maybe even a rework of Purify as a mechanic. But such a rework would require CDPR to also look at other Statuses like Shield, Bounty, etc.

Also as a bit of general advice. If you want to display that you dislike a mechanic or design you might want to consider adding an explanation why the mechanic is "bad" or "OP". Maybe even giving an Example to make it easier for other to understand the issue and come up with a creative solution to the issue.

And complaining about "RNG gambling stuff" in a card game, which by design has an Element of Chance and Luck since Cards are drawn from a List of possible Cards, thus allowing for bad luck to screw with you is not really precise if you ask me. So again, without wanting to seem condescending, I would suggest to consider giving a more detailed explanation of the issue.

I'm sure it's pretty clear that destroying any big and/or expensive unit with two cheap bronze cards that also give untouchable coins, have quite a body and/or have Harmony is simply OP. The double binary nature of Poison (the either-you-have-Purify-or-you-don't RNG luck and double Poison simply destroying any unit, no matter its strength) makes it even worse than artifacts and artifact removal as artifacts don't just destroy units. Gwent needs to get rid of the binary crap, the big swings based on RNG luck. It should become more calculative and thereby strategic. Bleeding is a good mechanic, Poison is a bad one.

 

[Guest 4368268]

Poison is another bad binary mechanic. Destroy any unit with two cheap bronze cards that have a body, Harmony, coins, whatever. Crap and OP design, even more when compared to the Purify cards. RNG gambling stuff again.

I remember that one gold from OB that could kill a spying unit. Was it Menno? Anyway, you'd have to toggle a units' spying status with a bronze (that had no alternate/dual ability) and then you could use Menno to kill it. This was completely reasonable and for me it shows just how powerful the poison mechanic is.

Like you said, the weird thing about poison is the amount of cards that have it as a 'side effect' also, now that defenders have made your purify more valuable (and the fact that there are barely good faction purifies available) you often can't really afford to blows yours in that situation.

If you desperately want to get rid of a card, regardless of how low/high its strength is, okay great you've got a card like Korathi Heatwave to do that for you. Which is 10 provisions and no body. Not 8 provisions and two four-point bodies.

It's very easy and rewarding to destroy stuff and very risky to go tall with units. Why make it even riskier?

 

[Xanaroth]

First of all, I want to thank Archan6el for taking my advice and giving a more detailed statement about the issue.

Secondly, thanks Nathan277 for pointing out the old Infiltrator + Menno combo in Beta.

Both of you have some really good points about Poison and it´s effectiveness.

One thing that, as far as I can see, we can all agree on is that the current state of Purify is an Issue if one is to consider adding more or different ways to add Poison and thus a Poison archetype. Like I have stated before CDPR will probably have to take another look at that Mechanic as well as the other Statuses in the Game. But I think there might be another way to deal with the issue in this specific case.

If we examine Bleeding and Lock we will find that both of those archetypes are generally accepted by the community. And there is another thing that both of them have in common. Both of them can be dealt with without using Purify.

Bleeding can be stopped by vitality or equalized by buffing the Unit. And there are some cards that specifically add the option of removing a lock. So maybe an alternative way to remove poison is needed.

Another very important Point seems to be Poisons cost if compared to other alternatives. Especially Korathi Heatwave is a good example here. Like Nathan277 said Heatwave is 10 provisons and no body, while Fangs of the Empire is 8 Provisions and two four point bodies. This could be offset with a tweak to the Poison mechanic.

If one where to introduce a scaling Element to poison it could change this issue at least somewhat. For example let´s take Spear Tip at 12 points. What if for every 3 ( or maybe 4) points of base strength of the unit a stack of poison is needed to remove it. This way it would take 4 ( or 3) turns to remove Spear Tip, while a weaker unit like a Nekker could be removed in one turn (which damage could do).

Another way to handle this issue is to rework the poison proc as a whole. For example how about making it so a poisoned unit takes more damage (either by simply increasing damage or by causing damage to ignore armor).
Or it could be reworked into a deathblow mechanic for more board control. When a poisoned unit dies adjacent units could be dealt some damage.
Or if one prefers a more targeted mechanic it could be reworked into a counter to boosting. While a Unit is poisoned it can not be boosted (or maybe the amount of boost is reduced).

As you see there are plenty of ways to try and handle the issue. It only takes some people to make detailed statements about the issue and some creative thinking.

Please feel free to voice some other ideas how to make Poison into a less explosive mechanic.

 

[Archan6el]

First of all, I want to thank Archan6el for taking my advice and giving a more detailed statement about the issue.

Secondly, thanks Nathan277 for pointing out the old Infiltrator + Menno combo in Beta.

Both of you have some really good points about Poison and it´s effectiveness.

One thing that, as far as I can see, we can all agree on is that the current state of Purify is an Issue if one is to consider adding more or different ways to add Poison and thus a Poison archetype. Like I have stated before CDPR will probably have to take another look at that Mechanic as well as the other Statuses in the Game. But I think there might be another way to deal with the issue in this specific case.

If we examine Bleeding and Lock we will find that both of those archetypes are generally accepted by the community. And there is another thing that both of them have in common. Both of them can be dealt with without using Purify.

Bleeding can be stopped by vitality or equalized by buffing the Unit. And there are some cards that specifically add the option of removing a lock. So maybe an alternative way to remove poison is needed.

Another very important Point seems to be Poisons cost if compared to other alternatives. Especially Korathi Heatwave is a good example here. Like Nathan277 said Heatwave is 10 provisons and no body, while Fangs of the Empire is 8 Provisions and two four point bodies. This could be offset with a tweak to the Poison mechanic.

If one where to introduce a scaling Element to poison it could change this issue at least somewhat. For example let´s take Spear Tip at 12 points. What if for every 3 ( or maybe 4) points of base strength of the unit a stack of poison is needed to remove it. This way it would take 4 ( or 3) turns to remove Spear Tip, while a weaker unit like a Nekker could be removed in one turn (which damage could do).

Another way to handle this issue is to rework the poison proc as a whole. For example how about making it so a poisoned unit takes more damage (either by simply increasing damage or by causing damage to ignore armor).
Or it could be reworked into a deathblow mechanic for more board control. When a poisoned unit dies adjacent units could be dealt some damage.
Or if one prefers a more targeted mechanic it could be reworked into a counter to boosting. While a Unit is poisoned it can not be boosted (or maybe the amount of boost is reduced).

As you see there are plenty of ways to try and handle the issue. It only takes some people to make detailed statements about the issue and some creative thinking.

Please feel free to voice some other ideas how to make Poison into a less explosive mechanic.

Now that's a nice and very interesting post! I especially like the idea of Poison needing to stack, making it really calculative and fun. For example, the first Poison applied is a virtual 2 damage. If the poisoned unit is or becomes 2 or 1 strength, it is killed by the Poison. If it is higher strength, let's say 7, nothing happens. If the unit of 7 gets a second Poison, this would square the Poison damage, making it 4. If the unit of 7 with two Poison would be damaged by 3, it would be killed by the two Poison. If a third Poison is applied, Poison is again squared, making it 8, killing the 7 strength unit. This will create fun and risky counter plays with purify or boosting a unit to protect it from multiple Poisons.

 

[Xanaroth]

Now that's a nice and very interesting post! I especially like the idea of Poison needing to stack, making it really calculative and fun. For example, the first Poison applied is a virtual 2 damage. If the poisoned unit is or becomes 2 or 1 strength, it is killed by the Poison. If it is higher strength, let's say 7, nothing happens. If the unit of 7 gets a second Poison, this would square the Poison damage, making it 4. If the unit of 7 with two Poison would be damaged by 3, it would be killed by the two Poison. If a third Poison is applied, Poison is again squared, making it 8, killing the 7 strength unit. This will create fun and risky counter plays with purify or boosting a unit to protect it from multiple Poisons.

Glad to see you like the idea.

 

[FG15-ISH7EG]

If one where to introduce a scaling Element to poison it could change this issue at least somewhat. For example let´s take Spear Tip at 12 points. What if for every 3 ( or maybe 4) points of base strength of the unit a stack of poison is needed to remove it. This way it would take 4 ( or 3) turns to remove Spear Tip, while a weaker unit like a Nekker could be removed in one turn (which damage could do).

Another way to handle this issue is to rework the poison proc as a whole. For example how about making it so a poisoned unit takes more damage (either by simply increasing damage or by causing damage to ignore armor).
Or it could be reworked into a deathblow mechanic for more board control. When a poisoned unit dies adjacent units could be dealt some damage.
Or if one prefers a more targeted mechanic it could be reworked into a counter to boosting. While a Unit is poisoned it can not be boosted (or maybe the amount of boost is reduced).

While I see the problem, I'm not too fond of any of these ideas.
Needing more poison stacks makes poisoning large units extremly risky or even impossible because you need a lot more poison to do it. Also, I like that poison is an alternative to normal damage cards and can be played without them. And while some of the other ideas would sound nice, they would completly remove poisons current niche, which would just lead back to cards like Geralt or other high unit killers and would reduce varity.

So, two different suggestions:
1. A unit with double poison takes X damage at turn end instead of being instantly destroyed. X could be 5.
This would be similar to the multiple poison stacks in the way that you would need more to kill larger enemies, but the enemy would eventually die with 2 stacks. Also it would allow some way of counterplay by healing a poisoned unit or boosting it enough for it to stay alife longer.

2. A unit with doulbe poison will be set to 1 strength immediantly and on turn end. This way the value removal is still there, but to completly remove the card from the board pinging it would be necessary too.
This way the player using poison would atleast need 1 more combo piece for the removal.