Politics in TW3

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Argh, mateys... Long post ahead, yarr!

Why in the world do so many people seem to assume that the fate of Lyria, Rivia, and Aedirn hinged on Roche's tenacity?

Sorry, maybe I should make it clear that I'm not saying he could have changed that. I'm saying that Roche seems not to be disturbed by this fact. It feels strange to me that he can justify that to himself being a part of accepting a deal that has those consequences.

Temeria fought against Nilfgaard - Roche mentions a battle that lasted for three days - and they lost. Whatever the kingdom could scrounge up after Foltest's death was crushed and the country was defeated, utterly and completely. Roche was reduced to becoming a guerilla that scurried around in the hills, knowing that his country was never going to be independent again.

Eh, I'm not so sure on that bit. The ending with the Temerian vassal state is an ending in which Nilfgaard is handed victory. The game makes it very clear to us, but doesn't explain why Roche doesn't understand, that Emhyr is barely holding on to power at home. Even the general and ambassador allude and/or state out right for this to be the case... in the very same hall in which Emhyr's personal guards are, well, guarding shite!

Temeria may have been beaten, but that doesn't mean it's in Roche's character to play willing participant in a total Nilfgaard domination of the North. The game never explains why he doesn't have this very info that any number of characters, including Geralt, could have told him.

Again, let me emphasize that Temeria has been DEFEATED before the game even starts. They will never again be an independent kingdom.

Yup. Again, read my above statement. Roche is a patriot of the highest order. I think it's unlikely, in the game universe, that he would lay down his arms just because the country doesn't exist as a formal sovereign state. I think that's part of the reason why him joining the Redanians [W2] was NEVER an option for this story line.

One last bit about the scurrying around. I know we didn't get to see much of it... but it sure seems that Roche's guerrillas [and maybe others? it's not said] are causing more problems than we are shown.

Otherwise, why would Emhyr see it as important to deal with them and not just crush them? It's not just about having a vassal state, as he is doing that already, and could strengthen it further with loyal troops garrisoned there.

Remember, Nilfgaard doesn't always win. Unless I missed something... seriously, there's a lot of threads... it's explicitly described that the guerrillas' standing down paves the way for Nilfgaard to conquer the North. With the Guerrillas, Redanians, and lack of support at home, Emhyr was actually fighting a losing battle. I think it's totally out of character for Roche [remember his job and skills?] to not have any info and just jump on the first offer to have a flag that says Temeria.

He knows that's Temeria in name only... I don't think that's the kind of man Roche is, but I'm glad to discuss it more if you disagree. Cheers! :D

EDIT: Reminder, I'm talking about him and the deal with Nilfgaard. We could discuss what he might think about Redania taking over too. But in the game, he wasn't offered a choice to work with them.
 
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Argh, mateys... Long post ahead, yarr!



Sorry, maybe I should make it clear that I'm not saying he could have changed that. I'm saying that Roche seems not to be disturbed by this fact. It feels strange to me that he can justify that to himself being a part of accepting a deal that has those consequences.

Alright, I think I see the problem here. You believe that Nilfgaard would've lost if the Temerian guerillas had kept on fighting and thus Roche's deal was 'stabbing the Northern kingdoms in the back'.

Unfortunately, the ending doesn't seem all that clear on the issue. I believe that if Nilfgaard lost the war, it would be due to Redania's actions, simply due to the fact that no matter how tenacious your guerilla actions, all they can do is offer a distraction against the enemy while a larger force is brought in to deal with them decisively (Eg., the Peninsular War).

I think that after Temeria's defeat on the battlefield, Roche realized that the alternative to domination under Nilfgaard was annexation by Redania, and it wouldn't be out of character for him to 'forsake the North' if that's what it meant to help his country. If Nilfgaard had been defeated, I get the feeling that Temeria, Lyria, Rivia, and Aedrin would have been annexed by Redania, just like Kaedwen.

As for why Emhyr wants this deal, maybe he wants a local government established by Temerians (Kind of like Vichy France)? In the books I remember it being discussed that Emhyr wants to marry Ciri in order to legitimize his conquest of Cintra.
 
Alright, I think I see the problem here. You believe that Nilfgaard would've lost if the Temerian guerillas had kept on fighting and thus Roche's deal was 'stabbing the Northern kingdoms in the back'.

In the end, my original point had nothing to do with who ends up winning as much as how his actions are perceived to help Nilfgaard. Really, the outcome doesn't actually matter when talking about motivations because he couldn't know for certain the outcome. Sadly, what he believes will happen as a result of his actions doesn't seem to be explained. But his awareness and reaction, or lack of both in areas, of certain facts about Nilfgaard, seems readily apparent... ie... I feel it's out of character because he seems oblivious and we have to ignore his extremely tactical mind in dealing with enemies. How does he not know that Nilfgaard's hand isn't as strong as it's being played? Everyone else does!

But there's a lot of info that's just not presented clearly, I agree.
I mainly just think that Roche dealing with Nilfgaard at all feels out of character after the treachery of the assassinations, and watching his citizens be murdered for collaboration... murdered for supporting a free Temeria, Roche's main loyalty.

The stuff I write about who ends up winning is more about things I think Roche would have had to have known.

For some reason he seems to not only just go along with Nilfgaard because he'll get a place to wave his flag, but he [remember his job and background?] has absolutely no clue the role it could play in the tide of the war.

I think it's subpar writing of Roche's character in that quest line. Mainly because of an omission of details. As for stuff in the books, yeah we could go into that. But, for this I was mostly addressing that which was present as motivations in the game.

We could talk a lot about Roche and strange bedfellows with Redania! :D I'm getting tired though so maybe more tomorrow. Thanks for discussing it further! There's just so much that wasn't included that we HAVE to pull from outside material [I think] to get some kind of logical reasoning for his actions there and even dealing with Radovid. Cheers!
 
It's more a reflection of a situation. I think it would be odd if there weren't problems when the lead writer of a project was changed, or of a game series. Especially of a game that had by many accounts a troubled and long development.

I don't mean to suggest that anyone in particular is at fault. TW2 had it's own issues as well, not on this magnitude but still.



Well I can appreciate the frank honesty of your post instead of the arrogance I've seen from so many developers with their games "Cough" Mass Effect 3 artistic integrity "cough" despite the fact your post is like being slammed with a sledgehammer.

Two things then.

1) By your posts I suppose the team, especially the writers, are well aware of the problems that plague the game on the political side of things and in the main story? Just curios if it's something that's being discussed there.

2) Here's a list of what I would consider reasonable fixes to the problems of TW3. Political or not. Also a list of "Enhanced Edition and beyond fixes"

Some things like Letho being betrayed by Emhyr, who is renowned for keeping his word, Dijkstra becoming an utter idiot and Geralt's role in the assassination are too much too ask for as an easy fix but there are other things that are.

Short Term, Easy Fixes.

Throw Journal Entries added in the game automatically or at specific points, picking up certain books explain to us:

- How Emhyr is losing the war in detail and why is Radovid a tactical genius. We never see anything to showcase that.

- What happened to Anais and how Roche plans to resolve the issue of succession in Temeria.

- How does Dijkstra wins the war. ( He lacks Roche and his guerrilas and he doesn't have Radovid's tactical genius ) and how he even plans to take over Redania ( should be explained before we do Reasons of State ).

- What happened to the Order of the Flaming Rose and Siegfried. ( Preferably that most of the Order joined the Witch Hunters with Siegfried leading a small cadre of faithful knights loyal the original values of the Order )

- Why does Emhyr invade Skellige if he's losing the war on the continent, since it makes no military sense ( I can't think of any really good reason behind this decision and how to justify it in a way that doesn't make Emhyr an imbecile ).

- How Triss and Geralt broke up and what did Geralt do in the six months after Loc Muine. How did he even meet up with Vesemir and what happened to Vesemir, Lambert and Eskel between TW1 and TW3.

- Actual impact of Novigrad when you murder Radovid.

These may not seem like a lot but would add a very good deal of nuance to the story.

Long Term/Enhanced Edition fixes.

Obviously many of these are too much, actually scratch that way too much but then again I view it as wishlist then anything else.
- Everything that I listed in short term fixes but with actual dialogue exchanges in the game such as Geralt and Vesemir talking about how they met or Geralt and Zoltan chatting about the aftermath of Vergen etc. Better dialogue with Radovid where you can openly challenge him on the Witch Hunts. More dialogue with Emhyr, or if that's not possible ( due to the difficulty of getting Charles Dance ) then with Voorhis and Vattier du Rideaux who should be in the game.

- Have the assassination of Radovid take place directly after Deadly Plot. Deadly Plot has this beautiful set up in terms of convincing Geralt to finally take a stand. to FINALLY man the fuck up and do something for the world...and then nothing happens for hours, dozens even, until you get Phillipa. My point is that you should get an altered quest if you did Deadly Plot where you can kill Radovid, but if you don't do it then you get another chance where you can do it after you rescue Phillipa. If you kill Radovid then you just walk away, if you don't then things happen almost the same as they do...well with the exception of the conclusion.

- In line with my previous point remove that dumb choice where you either break Dijkstra's leg or you tell him about the political situation in the Empire, instead always getting the option to assassinate Radovid here, regardless of what you did after Deadly Plot. Phillipa is one of the most powerful mages in the north and she sits there while Dijkstra makes empty threats? He has no way of stopping her and he should know this. Instead give us a better conversation between Phillipa and Dijkstra where she gets involved in the assassination mission.

- Remove even the option of telling Dijkstra about Emhyr's situation and don't have him betray Roche. It's just stupid, can't be justified in any way. Instead Dijkstra's fate should be decided somewhere else, and certainly not 2 minutes after you just helped kill Radovid. You should have a final conversation with all of them where they reveal on what they plan on doing: Thaler and Roche planning on returning to Temeria to retake it from Nilfgaard while Dijkstra plans on using the time he has with the truce to stabilize Redania following Radovid's death while also preparing for inevitable continuation of the war.

- Have the option for Geralt to personally strike the final blow against Radovid. Not Phillipa. Also give us the option of walking back in the warehouse to hell Roche and co. that Phillipa knows everything after she gives us the ring. This should change the final scene with Radovid.

- Series of Quests involving Vattier du Rideaux that revolve around weakening but not destroying completely the political opposition of Nilfgaard in various ways in Act 2 and Act 3. Reasoning behind Geralt intervening is that the opposition wants to kill Emhyr and Ciri and put one more suitable on the throne, more suitable for them anyway.

- Preferably remove the Letho side quest as it really hurts Emhyr as a character who always keeps his word and instead involve him here through the entire quest chain or at the very least partially with the option of recruiting him for Kaer Morhen after doing some of the quests in the chain. Could perhaps use much of the existing quest, minus the ending encounter, as a start before Vattier reveals that it's all a public ploy that Emhyr needs to engage in so that he can dispel "rumors" that Nilfgaard was behind the assassinations. Anyway just don't have Emhyr betray Letho really.

- Related to my points fate of war should depend on the assassination of Radovid and on dealing with the opposition. Several options:

1) If Radovid is alive and opposition is intact then Roche, Thaler, Ves and Dijkstra try and kill Radovid but fail and are executed while in Nilfgaard the political elite turn on Emhyr and in the ensuing power vacuum Radovid is able to crush Nilfgaard and liberate large tracks of the North, but NOT all. Lyria or Temeria's former protectorates should remain under Nilfgaardian control as Voorhis is able to finally rally his armies as the new Emperor.

2) If Radovid is alive but the opposition weakened then Emhyr is able to crush the remaining political elite and Nilfgaard and then turn on Radovid. Dijkstra dies trying to kill Radovid but Roche, Thaler and Ves survive and manage to convince Emhyr to make Temeria a vassal in exchange for the guerrilla standing down. Emhyr agrees and manages to win the war but at a staggering price in terms of casualties for Nilfgaard.

3) If Radovid is dead but the opposition intact then Emhyr has the time with the temporary truce with Dijkstra to crush the domestic opposition but is unable to conquer Redania as Dijkstra manages to place himself firmly as ruler and strengthen the defenses on the Pontar. An uneasy ceasefire takes hold. For now. Temeria becomes a vassal of Nilfgaard.

4) If Radovid is dead and the opposition weakened then after the temporary truce ends Emhyr is able to continue his invasion after easily sweeping away the remnants of the political elite. Dijkstra fails to stabilize Redania after Radovid's death in time to able to resist Nilfgaard and it all falls under the rule of Emhyr, with the exception of Temeria which still becomes a vassal.

- Somewhat related to my points so far, but not necessarily. Ciri should always meet Emhyr as the scene is one of the best moments between Geralt and Ciri, but the decision on whether or not Ciri becomes empress should not be related to this meeting. Instead add a lengthy, optional, conversation between Geralt and Ciri similar to the one with Alvin in TW1 about what people with great power should do with it and about the role of a witcher in society. This should impact her decision somewhat but so should the war. With her leaning in favor or against becoming Empress depending on your decisions in the conversation but also on the outcome of the war. Have this dialogue reflected on both Witcher and Empress endings.

- Remove the scene where Geralt lies to Emhyr about Ciri in the Empress ending, and instead of replace it with a scene where Geralt tells Emhyr Ciri has no intention of becoming a ruler with Emhyr grudgingly accepting that and telling a surprised Geralt he never had any intention of forcing someone on a throne they don't want, as wishing to rule is necessary to be able to do it well. If Getting Charles Dance is not possible then just remove the scene and add more dialogue between Ciri and Geralt where this is reflected and also have it mentioned that Emhyr will pretend that Ciri is dead for her own sake.

- Related to all my previous political points and with regards with Ciri then If Radovid wins then she doesn't become Empress, if Nilfgaard barely wins after a brutal war or enters a Cold War with Dijkstra's Redania then she is less willing to become the successor of a brutal Emperor then she is if Nilfgaard wins more easily but she will still do so if Geralt convinced her that she would do more good as a ruler.

- Dialogue with Voorhis after meeting Emhyr to ask for aid at Kaer Morhen where he explains it would be close to impossible for Nilfgaard to aid anyway as Radovid's forces are too entrenched on the border. Also have Voorhis suggest Geralt recruit Letho as an alternative.

- Improved role for Letho at Kaer Morhen. He's literally the only person alive as a full witcher who fought the Wild Hunt and remembers everything. he should provide good insight into how you should properly fight them even if some, though not everyone, distrusts him. This is instead of his current role where he just spouts one liners....it's a major insult to the best character you've ever created to reduce him to that role.

- Better battle at Kaer Morhen with the fate of certain allies determined by how many people you brought: Lambert, Eskel along with perhaps Keira and Hjalmar's friends dying depending on how many allies you brought. Better gameplay overall instead of just "roll to X and then flip switch/close portal". Better companion AI and more damage on them, regardless of difficulty.

- Either bring Lambert and Eskel, along with Letho and Keira if available, in the final battle against the hunt or provide good explanations as to why they won't help because as it stands there is none, especially for Lambert and Eskel.

- Better handling of Eredin and the Wild Hunt. better final battle with more allies and more gameplay besides 2 running scenes to the bosses and a lot of cinematics. Especially handle Ciri taking on the White Frost moments after you kill Eredin better.


Again I view much this is list as a fantasy of mine, but I do consider at least some of the points reasonable ( like a quest chain involving dealing with the opposition, or at least ONE quest ). Of course actual writers should be able to implement this far better then suggested here by a random guy on the forum.
I agree with 100%. But one thing it bugs me, how the f%$¨@ would Dijkstra take control of Redania like that. I understand Dijkstra taking control of Novigrad, I can see it happening, but an entire country? There is a lot of "bureaucracy" envolving how takes the crown. And besides, look whast happened to Temeria, a lot of houses fighting for power. Djikistra kills Radovid, the entire country feels grateful and follows someone with no real experience being a politician.

The ending felt too fast.
 
AVMC, what makes it worse is that the whole thing is a mess. If you factor in TW2, things derail completely. If Anais is given to Radovid, Roche is gonna serve him. Roche even says: "Temeria needs a strong independtly minded king and I've got no better candidates" and that he does so to protect Anais. Why would he do a complete 180º now and turn against Redania and Anais. What now? He wants to rule Temeria with Thaler? It seems clear to me he was taking some of Radovid's personal fisstech. Let's not talk about Adda right now to not complicate things further.

Even if we ourselves try to ignore Anais, Temeria was beaten since TW2 - it either was divided between Henselt and Radovid or it became a redanian protectorate, which Roche did not find that terrible, but now it is not acceptable for him and there is not even someone to unify Temeria like Anais would (and kind of did if you gave her to Natalis). I can easily see they failing to unite Temeria and requiring Nillfgaard's "assitance" and we know what would happen.

CDPR, why? Politics could've just stayed in the background, no need to dumb it down. For newer players, without any save, you could've defaulted to the most simple state, you could have Saskia dead, Henselt dead, Iorveth dead (which CDPR already did, they must have thought about this). You could have the witch hunt too but should not butcher Radovid's character and ignore Adda/Anais and in these quests to kill Radovid, Roche would not want to kill him, only Dijkstra, whom would try to convince Geralt in the same way (protecting Yen/Triss). The choice at the end could be about something like:

- siding with Dijkstra / happens the exact same way as now (still lacks an explanation for how he would beat Nilfgaard among other things, but let's ignore this for a while) or

- siding with Roche / Radovid lives and even if he wanted, he can't stop the witch hunts anymore / Temeria is an independent country (if Adda lives and you have the save) or redanian protectorate (Anais, default for no saves).

This would be very similar to how it is today, friendly for those new to the series but still needs to acknowledge the other options. But I think the reason of state alone should not determine the winner of it all. At least Dijkstra shouldn't win just because of it.
 
I missed the politics of the past two games, which you found out who the real villain was and it turned out to be some secret medevial fantasy illuminati doing X or Y. Instead of something like Salamandra or the Lodge of Sorceresses, it was interdimentional Elves. I was expecting that Eredin would turn out to be a morally gray villain like Letho..
 
1) If Radovid is alive and opposition is intact then Roche, Thaler, Ves and Dijkstra try and kill Radovid but fail and are executed while in Nilfgaard the political elite turn on Emhyr and in the ensuing power vacuum Radovid is able to crush Nilfgaard and liberate large tracks of the North, but NOT all. Lyria or Temeria's former protectorates should remain under Nilfgaardian control as Voorhis is able to finally rally his armies as the new Emperor.

2) If Radovid is alive but the opposition weakened then Emhyr is able to crush the remaining political elite and Nilfgaard and then turn on Radovid. Dijkstra dies trying to kill Radovid but Roche, Thaler and Ves survive and manage to convince Emhyr to make Temeria a vassal in exchange for the guerrilla standing down. Emhyr agrees and manages to win the war but at a staggering price in terms of casualties for Nilfgaard.

3) If Radovid is dead but the opposition intact then Emhyr has the time with the temporary truce with Dijkstra to crush the domestic opposition but is unable to conquer Redania as Dijkstra manages to place himself firmly as ruler and strengthen the defenses on the Pontar. An uneasy ceasefire takes hold. For now. Temeria becomes a vassal of Nilfgaard.

4) If Radovid is dead and the opposition weakened then after the temporary truce ends Emhyr is able to continue his invasion after easily sweeping away the remnants of the political elite. Dijkstra fails to stabilize Redania after Radovid's death in time to able to resist Nilfgaard and it all falls under the rule of Emhyr, with the exception of Temeria which still becomes a vassal.

Although I agree with rest of your post, I think, that instead 1) and 3) we should get the endings which we have actually right now in game - total victory in war for either Radovid or Djikstra. It should be give much bigger explanation for Djikstra ending (for example, we should have option to help him recruit Natalis/some Redanian commander or for example help him get help from Kovir or from Mages).
 
Well I can appreciate the frank honesty of your post instead of the arrogance I've seen from so many developers with their games "Cough" Mass Effect 3 artistic integrity "cough" despite the fact your post is like being slammed with a sledgehammer.

Two things then.

1) By your posts I suppose the team, especially the writers, are well aware of the problems that plague the game on the political side of things and in the main story? Just curios if it's something that's being discussed there.

2) Here's a list of what I would consider reasonable fixes to the problems of TW3. Political or not. Also a list of "Enhanced Edition and beyond fixes"

First of all, sorry for "slamming with the sledgehammer" - I know that's not exactly what you guys would like to hear, but I want to be honest with you and don't want to make any empty promises.

As for your questions:
1) They are aware of some of these problems, the others they didn't know about. I'm going to bring the latter to their attention.
2) I can't promise you that these will be done in any form. I can promise you though that I will bring up discussion about those in the office.

It was brought up by someone else in this thread that I mentioned time and resources needed to do such changes, and that we supposedly have both now - it's not that simple, belive me, but I can't get into details here. It is also not my decision to allocate resources we would need for this. As I said - I will bring this up with people who can make such decision, and we will see what happens.
 
First of all, sorry for "slamming with the sledgehammer" - I know that's not exactly what you guys would like to hear, but I want to be honest with you and don't want to make any empty promises.

As for your questions:
1) They are aware of some of these problems, the others they didn't know about. I'm going to bring the latter to their attention.
2) I can't promise you that these will be done in any form. I can promise you though that I will bring up discussion about those in the office.

It was brought up by someone else in this thread that I mentioned time and resources needed to do such changes, and that we supposedly have both now - it's not that simple, belive me, but I can't get into details here. It is also not my decision to allocate resources we would need for this. As I said - I will bring this up with people who can make such decision, and we will see what happens.

Thank you for your responses! It's a welcome change to actually see devs talking with the community and admitting problems. That's why we love you so much:)
Just one question. Are your writers aware of the problems with the portrayal of the Wild Hunt in general and Eredin in particular?
Some of the problems are described in this thread (hopefully you have seen it)
http://forums.cdprojektred.com/thre...ring-the-whole-game-and?p=1771393#post1771393
 
Plot foundations, core structure of quests, choices or endings, etc. Presentation of those could be improved though, given the resources.

Dude THANKS for taking the time to get back to us ! Finally someone in CDPR took pity on the fans & spoke out. :D


Thank you for your responses! It's a welcome change to actually see devs talking with the community and admitting problems. That's why we love you so much
Just one question. Are your writers aware of the problems with the portrayal of the Wild Hunt in general and Eredin in particular?
Some of the problems are described in this thread (hopefully you have seen it)
http://forums.cdprojektred.com/threa...93#post1771393

Could you be so kind as to confirm if you guys have taken note of this as well?? It's such a darn shame that The freakin' Wild Hunt themselves didn't have more presence in the game/plot..Their characters I feel were sadly overlooked. ..and oh...the endings were too brief to properly do Geralt's W1,W2 & W3 journey proper justice..

I never actually doubted you guys even when the graphics scandal was all up in the headings (graphics seem to have been done justice with .ini tweaks and Reshade profiles so kudos for allowing that ;)) but the story ...that's something else guys..
 
Could you be so kind as to confirm if you guys have taken note of this as well?? It's such a darn shame that The freakin' Wild Hunt themselves didn't have more presence in the game/plot..Their characters I feel were sadly overlooked. ..and oh...the endings were too brief to properly do Geralt's W1,W2 & W3 journey proper justice..

Yes, we've read about both of these issues.
 
As I said - I will bring this up with people who can make such decision, and we will see what happens.

Thank you for your continued presence in this thread. I just want to say, while you're here, that a lot of these threads' existence is directly linked to the amazingly high regard in which we hold CDPR's handling of complex topics.

Thanks again!
 
Something small, sort of related to politics, that I'd love to see elaborated on...

Would love to see just a few lines (even just one line) from a certain character who found her mothers corpse, I went to go visit her in her estate after I completed that mission and was disappointed to see I couldnt say something to let her know things had been handled. After what she asks of you it would have been nice to tie that up and let her know I granted her request.
 
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