Politics in TW3

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On the other hand, Roche and Ves (Particularly the former) are probably two of the most developed characters in the game trilogy, so their presence might have been necessary. But it really would have made more sense if Roche wasn't the military leader of the Temerian resistance.
Yeah, gathering people one by one seemed a bit silly, but I guess they just couldn't have made the battle large-scale with complete armies - that also might be part of the reason why Geralt simply refuses Emhyr's offer...

But that's not the biggest problem with the story by far anyway.
 
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Eh, by that point, Roche was already working on a treaty with Nilfgaard.

Exactly. So why doesn't Roche bring hundreds of his men if he comes there himself? If you don't bring Letho he even COMPLAINS that you lack men.
 
Exactly. So why doesn't Roche bring hundreds of his men if he comes there himself? If you don't bring Letho he even COMPLAINS that you lack men.

It could simply be because this is a matter of personal honor and friendship. He's coming along with Ves because you're his friend and so is she whereas everyone else is fighting for a Free Temeria.

It only makes sense in action movie, Western style logic but a lot of the Witcher does.
 
It could simply be because this is a matter of personal honor and friendship. He's coming along with Ves because you're his friend and so is she whereas everyone else is fighting for a Free Temeria.

It only makes sense in action movie, Western style logic but a lot of the Witcher does.

I beg to differ. I think TW2 did an excellent job of not going following this sort of 'action movie attitude'. Admittedly, TW1 kind of had it with Henselt walking around a burning Vizima, although maybe you could reason his actions.

Roche risking his life for a friend in an entirely different nation against a foe from another dimension when he's the leader of the Temerian resistance - in other words, the strongest figure in Temeria not dominated by Nilfgaard - is seriously going overboard.
 
I beg to differ. I think TW2 did an excellent job of not going following this sort of 'action movie attitude'. Admittedly, TW1 kind of had it with Henselt walking around a burning Vizima, although maybe you could reason his actions.

Roche risking his life for a friend in an entirely different nation against a foe from another dimension when he's the leader of the Temerian resistance - in other words, the strongest figure in Temeria not dominated by Nilfgaard - is seriously going overboard.

It's also perfectly in character for Roche.

Who, in legal terms, was the head of a CIA Black Ops unit and when said unit is wiped out proceeds to go and personally stab to death the President of Iran.

Who went on a personal mission to go after the assassin of his former King for revenge.

Who proceeds to go John Wayne on a bunch of guys to rescue the daughter of his late boss.

He is ABSOLUTELY INSANE.
 
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It's also perfectly in character for Roche.

Who, in legal terms, was the head of a CIA Black Ops unit and when said unit is wiped out proceeds to go and personally stab to death the President of Iran.

Who went on a personal mission to go after the assassin of his former King for revenge.

Who proceeds to go John Wayne on a bunch of guys to rescue the daughter of his late boss.

He is ABSOLUTELY INSANE.

Alright, the part where he goes after Dethmold is pretty over the top. I always saved Triss, so I keep forgetting about that little adventure.

Him running a few kilometres to kill Henselt in the middle of a battle is not really ridiculous, though, since he felt that he had nothing left to lose. The part about the personal mission is also negligible, if even accurate at all. He goes to Flotsam to eliminate Loredo (And, optionally, Iorveth), and he then proceeds to Verden because of his mission to weaken Kaedwen. Other than helping Geralt escape from the dungeons of the La Valettes, he doesn't really do anything to specifically avenge Foltest.

In TW3, though, he suddenly does have 'something to live for', and he runs the entire Temerian resistance. Thus, it's just plain weird that he would throw that all away in order to personally fight for a friend in another country.
 
Actually Roche's entire story point is to find who was behind Foltest's death, not out of vengeance but in order to serve Temeria's interests and know who it's enemies are.

Loredo and Henselt are just secondary plots. As for Henselt, that's more of an opportunity of the moment. Sure Roche wants to avenge his men but Geralt and Ves convince him otherwise and instead you go to Vergen to find Sile.
 
While we don't actually see anyone present, I also like to think Roche isn't so stupid as to not have someone who can take over for him if he dies in battle.

Is John Natalis supposed to be dead, by the way?

I got the impression Roche is the head of *A* partisan band of the Temerian resistance but not, necessarily, all of them. He has enough influence to make the peace treaty with Nilfgaard but not so much I didn't get the impression he wasn't exceeding his authority a bit.

Hence why he needs Thaler's help.

Natalis is Charles du Gaulle, Roche is more like one of his immediate subordinates.
 
Roche being the head of the Temerian guerrilla military resistance actually makes perfect sense. He was the head of Temerian special forces and an expert in that sort of warfare. Of all the story points to take issue with, that one strikes me as being frivolous.
 
Roche being the head of the Temerian guerrilla military resistance actually makes perfect sense. He was the head of Temerian special forces and an expert in that sort of warfare. Of all the story points to take issue with, that one strikes me as being frivolous.

Yeah, my take in strict military terms is Natalis is the last remaining Temerian General and Roche is probably one of two remaining Colonels.

Or Natalis is a Marshal and Roche is a General.

You know what I mean.

Roche is in the position that if he dies, the resistance won't collapse but will be severely impeded. Roche does, however, have enough pull that combined with Thaler he can make the treaty with Emhyr as the resistance will go along with him as well as surviving nobility.
 
I won't lie to you - many issues described in this thread are rooted too deep in existing content to fix them with subtle changes, which means they're very unlikely to get fixed/changed. We'll address what we can with future updates of course, but Enhanced Edition is not being planned right now.

Signature noted. ;)

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I understand. Believe me, there are loads of things we'd like to make better / different if we could, looking back at the game now. Some of the issues you're raising were brought up during development, but for various reasons couldn't be addressed at the point we stumbled upon them.

I'm not saying no, and I'm not saying yes - everything is possible, but it depends on our resources and time.

You guys really owe it to yourselves to make at least a sort of Extended Cut DLC for this because really, the finale of this game just was missing 2-3 more scenes during the climax and the epilogue to feel properly conclusive. Everything went fine and then suddenly it just started sliding down like a rockslide, like holy cow my final 10 minutes with this game felt abrupt and I got the best ending.

The politics are unfixable because it's too deep into the middle of the game as you said, but towards the end of the game I felt it was somehow too cheap to just tell us the fallout of the war with one or two sentences in a ham-fisted epilogue-slide.

Also, keep in mind for the Yennefer lovers that her last screentime in the game is really, really undeserved no matter which ending you get, and after 3 games my romance with Triss felt like it had no place within the final act or epilogue.

But if push comes to shove and you simply can't address these issues in any realistic way, then at least know that we are super grateful you're willing to discuss these things with us all so openly. This is something I think they'd appreciate SO MUCH if Bioware could do the same instead of always circling around the issues or scapegoating.
 
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You guys really owe it to yourselves to make at least a sort of Extended Cut DLC for this because really, the finale of this game just was missing 2-3 more scenes during the climax and the epilogue to feel properly conclusive. Everything went fine and then suddenly it just started sliding down like a rockslide, like holy cow my final 10 minutes with this game felt abrupt and I got the best ending.

I think the general consenseus is: "A ten minute ending is too long for most games. For the game I just spent 150+ hours playing? Not so much."
 
I understand. Believe me, there are loads of things we'd like to make better / different if we could, looking back at the game now. Some of the issues you're raising were brought up during development, but for various reasons couldn't be addressed at the point we stumbled upon them.

I'm not saying no, and I'm not saying yes - everything is possible, but it depends on our resources and time.

I really do hope that you guys invest resources (gotten from selling W3 in the first place) into fixing these problems. I think that W3 is already the best RPG ever made, but you could turn it into a legendary masterpiece, of which people will still talk in decades. I know that a lot of RED developers really poured their hearts into the game, so it would be rewarding for everyone, including the devs, if the last holes were patched up, even if it takes a decent amount of effort.
 
I should have posted my essay links in this thread first. Sorry guys.

Here's THE POLITICS OF THE WITCHER 3 essay by C.T. Phipps (me).

Part One Just Went Up.
Part Two is now available
Part Three is now available

I'm happy to discuss any elements or disagreements people may have.

I respect the effort, and I am always happy to see people try to analyze games' stories, as it is a medium that is still somewhat underestimated in that regard.

Let me preface my post by saying that I recognize that the fact that I authored articles on the politics of the Witcher 2 might make it seem that I am critical because I deem it to be an "infringing on my territory" or out of condescension and sense of superiority. However, I would like to emphasize that my criticism does not target the author himself, who is very well spoken and eloquent, but rather it precisely targets the game itself.

I do believe that the author tried a bit too hard to make the politics in the Witcher 3 sound more complex than they actually are, relying heavily on events and phenomena that happened in mediums other than the game itself (the previous games and the novels being the source of such themes and events). Nevertheless, despite this, the politics described in the articles are superficial. It is absolutely no jab against the author, as I do not blame him or see it as a failure on his part, he couldn't do so anymore than one can turn plastic to diamond (the analogy is deliberately chosen).

There is no complexity in TW3, not in the way I define complexity at least. There are no dozens of factions all interacting and interrelating in a massive web. There are no systemic changes and macro-processes that go beyond the individual and beyond temporary political arrangements, there are no real themes and thematic oppositions, there are no multifaceted phenomena or multifaceted portrayal of war. There are no economic, geo-strategic, and social factions interacting so seamlessly, in such a way that it also avoids overloading players with too much unnecessary information. There is no exploration of the psyche of individuals and of peoples (in fact one thing I regret not doing is writing a focus piece on the psychological trauma that the elves have experienced, which manifests itself in many different ways, represented by Yaevin, Iorveth, and Cedric). The articles written are necessarily superficial and generic, as the subject matter itself is (and again, I hope I do not come across as overly aggressive, it is not my intent). The Witcher 2 did have all this, on the other hand, masterfully so.

If I wanted to bother doing so, I can make the politics in Skyrim look as seemingly interesting as Willowhugger tried to do with TW3, probably even more so. But despite my greatest efforts, I can guarantee I would not be able to make them sound actually complex, pertinent, and intelligent, not unless I do a lot of BSing.

I hope my post is not misconstrued as an attack, or at least as an attack on Willowhugger whose efforts I respect. If it is an attack, then it is an attack on the game, which is sadly as generic and as superficial as a game like Skyrim when it comes to politics.
 
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I understand, @KnightofPhoenix .

I also strongly disagree.

For me, the depiction of politics in the Witcher 3: Wild Hunt are a display of a single persistent theme which resonates throughout the game and that is the overwhelming ambiguity of a situation as large as the Nilfgaard invasion of the North. You can certainly argue that the politics of the game are superficial, devoid of meaning, and limited. I'd argue, instead, that the politics of the Witcher 3 are FLAWED and INCOMPLETE rather than this. I can only speak to my interpretation of events rather than any objective qualities regarding the issue.

There are no dozens of factions all interacting and interrelating in a massive web.

The Novigrad section is a political situation involving Nilfgaard, Redania, the Church of Eternal Fire, the Sorceresses, and the Alliance of Crime Lords. It is a delicate balance of power we watch disintegrate and is predicated on numerous factors which slowly get widdled down to nothing.

There are no systemic changes and macro-processes that go beyond the individual and beyond temporary political arrangements, there are no real themes and thematic oppositions, there are no multifaceted phenomena or multifaceted portrayal of war.

The idea there's no themes or thematic oppositions in Wild Hunt or a multifaceted portrayal of war is, however, simply difficult to parse. I feel the depiction of war in the first two Acts of Wild Hunt is one I find to be one of my favorite in fantasy gaming. For me, I think its use of both visual imagery and background information provides a multifaceted and interesting vision of the Nilfgaard-Northern conflict.

Much is left to the interpretation of the player because it is background information but we're provided more than enough to draw inferences and judgement about both how the war is effecting the common people as well as the nobility. If one ignores the Notice Boards, Background conversations, and does not explore then you are unlikely to gain a full understanding of the progress of the war though because the War is merely a backdrop for Geralt's more personal search for Ciri.

However, just like the Civil War plays a role both emotionally and storytelling wise in "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly" so does the Third Nilfgaard War form an important stage for the events of his conflict with the Wild Hunt to play out.

There are no economic, geo-strategic, and social factions interacting so seamlessly, in such a way that it also avoids overloading players with too much unnecessary information.

Economic, Geo-Strategic, and Social Factions are all referenced in the game. None of these particularly relate to the overarching quest to find Ciri but they're factors which get referenced as well as provide a stable backdrop to the realism and authenticity of the game's setting.

There is no exploration of the psyche of individuals and of peoples (in fact one thing I regret not doing is writing a focus piece on the psychological trauma that the elves have experienced, which manifests itself in many different ways, represented by Yaevin, Iorveth, and Cedric).

The idea there is no exploration of the psyche of individuals and of peoples with the situation of the Bloody Baron and the people of Velen with their relationship to the Crones, environment, religion, and the war is....silly.

The articles written are necessarily superficial and generic, as the subject matter itself is (and again, I hope I do not come across as overly aggressive, it is not my intent). The Witcher 2 did have all this, on the other hand, masterfully so.

The articles are covering, of course, not a single topic from the game but giving a basic overview of the political issues raised in the game as well as topics which are valid points of discussion. Just as you could do a thesis on any single element of Citizen Kane (which Wild Hunt is, not remotely, qualified to rival) you could talk about any single element of the game at length.

My original intent was to write a article purely about the Third Nilfgaard War and its players but decided instead to focus on providing a larger overview.

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Honestly, I'd like to say that the big thing I like about the Third Nilfgaard War as the backdrop for the game is that it is the majority portion of what amounts to the real overriding theme of TW3WH. Specifically, it is closing the chapter on Geralt's story by forming a story about the transition of the North which forms a lovely linked theme (accidental or otherwise) to Ciri's move from girl to woman.

How much of this is the work of CD_Projekt Red's writers and how much is the efforts of Sapkowski being transmitted from the page to pixels by copying themes of the books is debatable but either way, the effect is the same. The larger themes of the book were "The End of the Old, the Beginning of the New."

In this case, W3 is about saying goodbye to the North we've known from the previous two games and the disintegration of the ragtag alliance of kingdoms and principalities the titular Witcher thrived in for either its absorbtion into the Nilfgaardian Empire or its transitioning from a loosely-allied set of feudal states to a single economically-driven united autocracy.

I confess, I think a lot of the problems people have with the story of the Witcher 3 is it's not that the content for a serious political and emotional story isn't there, it's just that the story is very bloated and loose when it should be tight. The elements for extremely good storylines equal to those of AOK2 Wild Hunt are all present but they're hours apart and countless miles of travel as well as sidequests apart.

Another thing is the themes of W3 are diametrically opposed to one another in terms of their opinion of politics as well as the larger role of the individual. AOK2 is based on the "One Great Man of History" model as well as a "Game of Thrones" chess model where events move as a series of moves and countermoves. W3 is, by contrast, closer to my own view of politics which is that the One Great Man of History model is complete crap.

Events move in wild uncontrollable directions with effects and long-term effects largely invisible to their participants. The murky confusing nature of war, gains, and strategic value of specific targets are invisible to the participants and only slightly less opaque to the commanders above. I confess, there are places where corners were obviously cut like Henselt's Sword of Damocles' esque Death and absence of any larger effects from the Pontar Valley affair but even that mattered little to me as AOK was clear Nilfgaard's invasion WOULD render the political gambits of the 2nd game pointless anyway.

Hence the final scene.


All the plans of Kings and Popes go out the window due to the vagaries of fate or, in this case, Emperor Emhyr.

BTW, catching up on your writings! They're awesome!
 
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Nifgaard is trying to conquer the north, the emperor has domestic problems so if he doesn't do it fast enough the opposition will kill him. In the North, only king Radovid holds any real power. He is also mad and burning magic users everywhere, using the Witcher Hunters as tools to do so. Both parties need Novigrad's money to support their war and have agents inside. Some people in the north see Radovid's madness and try to eliminate him. This last group has a conflict of interests and disagree on whether Temeria or Redania should benefit from their cover actions.

Did I forget something?
 
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