Politics in TW3

+
Nifgaard is trying to conquer the north, the emperor has domestic problems so if he doesn't do it fast enough the opposition will kill him. In the North, only king Radovid holds any real power. He is also mad and burning magic users everywhere, using the Witcher Hunters as tools to do so. Both parties need Novigrad's money to support their war and have agents inside. Some people in the north see Radovid's madness and try to eliminate him. This last group has a conflict of interests and disagree on whether Temeria or Redania should benefit from their cover actions.

Did I forget something?

* It gets overlooked but the Conclave (if reformed) from the Witcher 2 does get referenced that Radovid's purge of magic-users is presently only limited to the Free City of Novigrad through the proxy of the Eternal Fire. He only begins a full-scale purge of the North when he no longer has any need for sorcerers.

* The situation in Velen is that the land is presented occupied by Temerian collaborators (led by the Bloody Baron) with Nilfgaard, specifically the Bloody Baron who is administrating the region while Nilfgaard prepares for its final push but maintains ties with his old allies.

* The Skellige affair is removed from the larger Nilfgaard war aside from the aborted invasion of the isles as well as their present belligerance against all visitors to it. It, however, deals with the larger theme of the game regarding the end of old ways to advance to new ones. Hjalmar represents a conservative approach, Cerys a peaceful domestication, and Bran the Younger representing aggressive modernization.

* There's a larger conflict dealing with the role of religion in society and its political misuse by various individuals. On one end, we have the Pellar, the followers of Freya, and Tamara representing its positive aspects contrasted versus its political misuse (Radovid, the Crones, the Witch Hunters, and All-God) with the overall effect showing superstition in a decidedly negative light.
 
For some reason I can't post the wall of text I wrote.

I have it copied, I'll try to see what I can do.

---------- Updated at 04:06 AM ----------

I get an error message, I can't seem to post it. Is there a word limit or something?
 
This is the buggiest forum, Knight of Phoenix.

I don't know what to tell you.

It was two weeks before I could post on my own computer.
 
Well that's annoying. I have it saved, I suppose I'll post it tomorrow.

Oh it worked:

My position is that they are fundamentally poorly though out, and as such no amount of simple additions would have made them "complete" in my eyes short of revising a lot of decisions.

Even if for the sake of argument, we accept that this political situation in Novigrad was as complex and as actively and visibly present in the game as you make it sound to be (which is not what I saw), it is still one "subplot" of the entire game. Compare that, to the main plot of the Witcher 2, where dozens of both major and minor factions are all simultaneously involved throughout, actively and visibly, all throughout the game in various scenarios, locations, and with regards to many issues. Something which I described in my articles.

Perhaps I should define with more precision what I mean by "thematic opposition." Take for instance the conflict between Radovid and Philippa Eilhart in the Witcher 2. It is, at heart, a battle between state-centrism, represented by a proto-absolutism that pretty much like our own history is contributing to the birth of the modern state, and internationalist institutionalism, whereby power would not be invested in states but rather in an international organization and non-state actors: the Conclave and the Lodge). It is, as I describe in my articles, a battle between Thomas Hobbes' worldview of the Leviathan being necessary for order and stability, and other worldviews (that are more modern) viewing international organizations as stabilizing elements (in political science literature, it is the position advocated by Neo-liberalism or institutional liberalism, as opposed to the neo-realism or state-centric realism that is represented by Radovid). In the same vein, the war in the Pontar valley was also a war between reactionary forces, and proto-nationalistic revolutionary forces (among many other facets in that war alone, which I have described in my articles as well).

This of course goes beyond ideological conflict, but is rather a systemic conflict, one that the actors themselves may not realize, in the context of a changing world order.

Such a dynamic was not present in the Nilgaardian / Northern war. It didn't even really portray the differences between Empire and Kingdom that well or in depth at all, let alone look at underlining trends and processes that birthed and shape the war. It is portrayed very simplistically. Not to mention the fact that the Nilfgaard - Northern War is in reality pretty much a war between Nilfgaard and Redania, with the conspirators being in the middle. The war of the Pontar valley ALONE is more complex and more cleverly presented.

As for war being properly portrayed. Well it is difficult to take seriously when you learn that Radovid was able to subjugate most of the North in less than 6 months, and that the only reason being given is "tactical genius." It is also difficult to take seriously when apparently Redania can single handedly take on Nilfgaard and beat it, again thanks to some godly tactical genius. But the military aspect of it aside, it is very simplistic in terms of the factions involved, the interests involved, and the way it is conducted.

I should have specified what I meant by the exploration of psyche, I meant the exploration of the psyche of the main political actors, in this case Radovid, Emhyr, and Djistkra (they are the only main actors, who represent the 3 endings). The most interesting of the 3 was Djistkra, before they made him into an imbecile, as well as make it virtually impossible to actually role play a Geralt that would side with him. The Witcher 2 did so, with Iorveth, with Saskia, Philippa, Sile, Radovid, Henselt, Stannis, Letho...etc.

As for the game exploring the psyche of peoples, I do not agree that they were explored in any way that isn't generic. Compare that to the representation of the elves in TW1 and TW2 (who have been rendered to irrelevance in TW3 inexplicably). To how we see the elves reacting from people like Yaevinn, who become obsessed with the idea of a suicidal revolution (and there are hints that imply that he knows it is suicide and he seeks it. The idea of resistance even with death as opposed to submission and a slow death), to Iorveth who despite being seemingly more cynical than the former is actually idealistic and clings to the last piece of hope that he found (and him being in denial in case of Saskia's defeat on Roche's path makes it even more moving) because he is so tired of fighting, to finally someone like Cedric an old revolutionary turned into a depressive drunk (it is quite similar to the tragic and unfair fate of many native Americans). These 3 were microcosms to the general trauma that the elves experienced, and it showcases their inability to adapt. Because they have been psychologically brutalized and scattered.

There is no such dynamic in TW3, not really. Not anything I'd find as pertinent and intelligently written anyways. And mind you, this is all part of the main narrative, and not confined to side stories. It takes a prominent role in both games, very explicitly.

As for TW2 being more about "the great man theory", I completely disagree. I too completely reject that theory, and I think any reading that posits that TW2 was about that and is more like Game of Thrones is very superficial. Rather, the Witcher 2 dealt with systemic issues and processes, such as the birth of the modern state, the rise of nationalism, the psychological trauma of a dispersed peoples, revolutionary vs reactionary movements....etc etc. I have described all that in length in my articles, which you would see once you catch up with them entirely. The "great men" in TW2 merely represent each movement / trend, reactions to changes that go far beyond their comprehension.

Yes, there is a lot of intrigue in TW2, but they lie on the backdrop of systemic phenomena and processes.
 
Last edited:
I agree with Willowhugger. I actually feel that political/social/military part of TW3 narrative (told not just in quests and major conversations, but in imagery, posted notices. background conversations, etc.) is a stronger part than Geralt's personal story about Ciri and WH. But yes, as I was afraid of, open world and too much things to do obviously diluted our experience of a story. We are bombarded with too much information about unrelated themes, and certain things simply do not get much attention. But it may actually increase a re-play value, for some people like me, at least. In general, I would like the narrative to be tighter, certain background things known from the books to be made explicit, certain characters to be developed more, and ceratin themes to get more exposure. Still, even as it is, the game is quite amazing.
 
I look forward to reading your post on the subject and can't wait to hear your thoughts at length. In the meantime, I will content myself by responding to the material below.

Perhaps I should define with more precision what I mean by "thematic opposition." Take for instance the conflict between Radovid and Philippa Eilhart in the Witcher 2. It is, at heart, a battle between state-centrism, represented by a proto-absolutism that pretty much like our own history is contributing to the birth of the modern state, and internationalism institutionalism, whereby power would not be invested in states but rather in an international organization and non-state actors: the Conclave and the Lodge). It is, as I describe in my articles, a battle between Thomas Hobbes' worldview of the Leviathan being necessary for order and stability, and other worldviews (that are more modern) viewing international organizations as stabilizing elements (in political science literature, it is the position advocated by Neo-liberalism or institutional liberalism, as opposed to the neo-realism or state-centric realism that is represented by Radovid). In the same vein, the war in the Pontar valley was also a war between reactionary forces, and proto-nationalistic revolutionary forces (among many other facets in that war alone, which I have described in my articles as well).

Well, there's your problem right there because the thematic opposition is not the issue but thematic resonance. The conflict between Radovid and Philippa Eilhart may, on a basic level, be a conflict between the strong nation state and interests within (say, the Catholic Church) but the conflict between Radovid and Emperor Emhyr is the conflict between two fundamentally different groups with the former being forced to become like the latter. I mentioned in both my essay and elsewhere that this is the Hegelian Dialectic at work and sythesis as the result of the larger conflict between the Northern Kingdoms and Southern Empire.

The conflict between Nilfgaard and Redania/The North is represented by the fact Nilfgaard represents an economically prosperous united authoritarian state. A "modernized" nation if we're to use a loose definition of the word modern. The depiction of Nilfgaard and its collection of professional soldiers, advanced military soldiers, and Renaissance-Era garb contrasts visually against the primitive and vaguely Medieval depiction of the North as well as their peasant levies.

If you choose to talk to General Voorhis after Yennefer at the Palace in Vizima, we get a discussion over how the Nilfgaardian Invasion is stalled by Radovid's takeover of Kaedwin. While people have commented on the unlikelihood of this, what actually is on display is Nilfgaard in miniature as Radovid forces a single coherent military rule over the Northern kingdoms and starts modernizing its territory. We only see the full-depth of what is necessary in the Dijkstra ending but the fundamental fact is the only way to defeat Nilfgaard is to BECOME Nilfgaard and that means the North ceases to be a hundred divided kingdoms but becomes a singular military opponent.

The irony is for both book readers as well as game players who pay attention is this process of "Nilfgaardization" is one which has been created ENTIRELY AS A RESULT OF NILFGAARD'S ACTIONS. The unification of the North under King Radovid the Stern could not have been accomplished if not for Emhyr's use of Letho to eliminate the majority of Northern monarchs and plunging their kingdoms into chaos which Radovid is able to exploit into uniting behind his banner as the last man standing. While it's a throwaway line, Vesemir says that the Northerners believe Radovid will restore previous borders but as the "only game in town" Radovid has become the unifer which Nilfgaard has unwittingly created its own worst enemy in. The threat of Nilfgaard and its model provide both a threat and a promise for the North to model itself on as Dijkstra illustrates is his plan in a number of speeches as well as the ending slides.

As with the Didactic, it is easy to surmise Nilfgaard itself is suffering for these kind of changes themselves but we get no real insights into their state as effected by the Northern War so I cannot speculate how the failure to break the North two to three times will affect them.

As for war being properly portrayed. Well it is difficult to take seriously when you learn that Radovid was able to subjugate most of the North in the matter of 6 months, and that the only reason being given is "tactical genius." It is also difficult to take seriously when apparently Redania can single handedly take on Nilfgaard and beat it, again thanks to some godly tactical genius. But the military aspect of it aside, it is very simplistic in terms of the factions involved, the interests involved, and the way it is conducted.

Radovid's subjugation of the North is one which is clearly not complete given that his strongest allies in the remaining Temerian military is actively plotting his death. Likewise, the aforementioned Vesemir is that the North is in an alliance of convenience. As stated, Nilfgaard is it's own worst enemy as there's no way Radovid would have been able to get the forces of the North behind him without their looming threat to make them the lesser evil.

As for the defeat of Nilfgaard, the progress of the war isn't decided merely on Radovid's tactical genius but the fact that the North has been able to repel Nilfgaard in the past as well as inflict devastating casualties on them. This was before the ever-increasing amount of closer ties between factions as well as modernization of both trade as well as military tactics by the Northerners who have been on a war footing for over a decade at this point. Nilfgaard's ability to project military strength is seemingly unlimited but as we discover in the setting, Emhyr's ability to motivate his forces to this war is very limited.

While it's only mentioned a few times, we discover Nilfgaard's Guilds are not supporting the treasury and the defeat of Nilfgaard is through coin rather than blades. On a very simple level, Emhyr does not have the funds to defeat the military, occupy, and subjugate the region. We catch hints of this even in the fact that they are already using local defectors to administrate the Velen region. The Redanian Alliance (for lack of another name for it) merely has to LAST long enough for Emhyr's domestic opposition to kill him and not care enough to continue the conflict.

In a way, the BIGGEST failure of the Nilfgaard war is it's inability to cultivate local allies. Cintra is conquered by doing so and the only scenario that Nilfgaard DOES win the war is doing so with Temeria (just as they did with King Henselt in his partitioning treason during the Second War).

I should have specified what I meant by the exploration of psyche, I meant the exploration of the psyche of the main political actors, in this case Radovid, Emhyr, and Djistkra (they are the only main actors, who represent the 3 endings). The most interesting of the 3 was Djistkra, before they made him into an imbecile, as well as make it virtually impossible to actually role play a Geralt that would side with him. The Witcher 2 did so, with Iorveth, with Saskia, Philippa, Sile, Radovid, Henselt, Stannis, Letho...etc.

I'm not going to argue with you that the final choice of Reasons of State was artificially handled for maximum drama even if I chose to take a third option by believing that siding with Roche would not fit my own view of Geralt's character given the treaty. The absence of a larger political discussion of the implications of the treaty and the nebulous reasons for killing Roche are things I won't defend. I, personally, believe the only sensible ending while preserving the finale of ROS would be that Dijkstra announces his intentions to fight on as Chancellor of Redania only for ROCHE to attack HIM because doing so disrupts the treaty he and Thaler have just painstakingly negotiated.

I also think the Bloody Baron represents an insight into the national psyche of Temeria and the unexpected (but true) knowledge that there will be those who side with the Nilfgaardian oppressors in hopes of being rewarded for it. Part of what I liked about TW3 was that it portrayed collaboration with the quote-unquote enemy not as treason but a valid if contemptible course of action. Too often surrender is unthinkable in media by "heroes" when surrender is needed for most wars to end.

If nothing else, I also like how the game showed not the feelings of the main political actors on the situation but the people on the ground. As Geralt says, "Someone should write a story about war how it really is: the rapes, the murder, the plundering, and the disease." Which the historian dismisses whereas TW3 shows us in unflinching detail.

As for TW2 being more about "the great man theory", I completely disagree. I too completely reject that theory, and I think any reading that posits that TW2 was about that and is more like Game of Thrones is very superficial. Rather, the Witcher 2 dealt with systemic issues and processes, such as the birth of the modern state, the rise of nationalism, the psychological trauma of a dispersed peoples, revolutionary vs reactionary movements....etc etc. I have described all that in length in my articles, which you would see once you catch up with them entirely. The "great men" in TW2 merely represent each movement / trend, reactions to changes that go far beyond their comprehension.
Yes, there is a lot of intrigue in TW2, but they lie on the backdrop of systemic phenomena and processes.

For me, I think there's a lot of very interesting things going on in the background of the Witcher 3: Wild Hunt dealing with the dissolution of the "Old World" of the Northern Kingdoms. We get the Skellige and Crookback Bog representing the old superstitious monster-ridden days but both will have those ways destroyed by Geralt's actions. By contrast, we have Redania becoming Nilfgaard or the latter absorbing the former.

Vesemir's death, while somewhat cliche, also represents the last breath of the Old World. If you believe AOK deals with the rise of nationalism, WH deals with the birth of the Nation State. It's why I tend to think of the Dijkstra as the most interesting one for the North as it shows the transformation of a backwards state into one which is rising power. Skellige, likewise, moves forward into the future.
 
Last edited:
The unification of the North under King Radovid the Stern could not have been accomplished if not for Emhyr's use of Letho to eliminate the majority of Northern monarchs and plunging their kingdoms into chaos which Radovid is able to exploit into uniting behind his banner as the last man standing.
 
Well, there's your problem right there because the thematic opposition is not the issue but thematic resonance. The conflict between Radovid and Philippa Eilhart may, on a basic level, be a conflict between the strong nation state and interests within (say, the Catholic Church) but the conflict between Radovid and Emperor Emhyr is the conflict between two fundamentally different groups with the former being forced to become like the latter. I mentioned in both my essay and elsewhere that this is the Hegelian Dialectic at work and sythesis as the result of the larger conflict between the Northern Kingdoms and Southern Empire.

And this is where you clearly describe the game as you wish it was, as opposed to how it actually is.

Yes, had TW3 been about the irony of needing to become Nilfgaard in order to beat it, it would have been interesting and I would have completely agreed with it that it is thematically resonating. although I would have much preferred the North evolve closer to the modern state model with nationalism being a driving force, which Nilfgaard is not by virtue of being an empire. It would have been more interesting and pertinent.

But here is the problem in your argument. Radovid is described, shown, and explicitly stated by the game itself in his ending to be MUCH WORSE than Nilfgaard. The game legitimately tells you that "freedom under Radovid is worse than subjugation under another" aka Nilfgaard (this, in the end game epilogue). Unlike Nilfgaard, Radovid wants to purge all mages. Not only does Nilfgaard not do that, but contrary to book lore, it actually starts offering mage rights and makes a deal with the Lodge. Radovid wants to purge all nonhumans, while Nilfgaard does not. Radovid is shown, consistently, as being a much worse alternative than Nilfgaard.

So it is not at all a question of Redania becoming Nilfgaard, in order to beat it. That may only apply with Dijkstra, except again, there is no valid reason why Geralt would actually side with him, thus rendering that whole possibility not only inaccessible, but a minor subplot in an overall messy narrative.

Rather, it is a question of an absolutely irredeemable ending (Radovid) vs a rather good ending (Nilfgaard). That, to me, is not resonating, is simplistic, and quite frankly boring.

In a way, the BIGGEST failure of the Nilfgaard war is it's inability to cultivate local allies. Cintra is conquered by doing so and the only scenario that Nilfgaard DOES win the war is doing so with Temeria (just as they did with King Henselt in his partitioning treason during the Second War).

Actually, if anything, it's Nilfgaard that is cultivating local allies, the Temerian conspirators being the biggest example as well as the Lodge, and it is Radovid who is not and who is alienating everyone, and yet he still manages to put on that much of a fight.

Nilfgaard was only defeated in the 2nd war by a coalition of Northern kingdoms, and because of the strategic failure that followed the Western and Eastern armies being unable to support army group center. It is a military situation that is described in great detail. There is no such detail in TW3, and much of what you say lies in the realm of speculation. For example, the idea of a "Redanian alliance" is non-existent, but rather it is simply Redania absorbing everyone else in ways that are not explained, or shown, in a matter of 6 months. Even in the context of a hegemonic alliance, sub-factions would develop and coherence would be hard to maintain. They could have shown Kaedweni nobles and soldiers, being relunctant to fight for Radovid and yet seeing it as their only option. We didn't really get to see that at all, and had the game tell us that it was Radovid's tactical genius that won him the war.

And the simple fact of the matter is that this is due to a clear desire to simplify the game. It is much easier to make it about Nilfgaard vs Redania, as opposed to make it about Nilfgaard vs Redania / Temerian resistance/ Kaedwen / Aedirnian resistance / other northern kingdoms, vs Scoia'tael (which the game ignores) / upper Aedirn / Valley of flowers neutral factions standing in the middle and weighting their options. And it is perhaps understandable that they would simplify, but they could have done so much better.
 
Last edited:
* It gets overlooked but the Conclave (if reformed) from the Witcher 2 does get referenced that Radovid's purge of magic-users is presently only limited to the Free City of Novigrad through the proxy of the Eternal Fire. He only begins a full-scale purge of the North when he no longer has any need for sorcerers.

* The situation in Velen is that the land is presented occupied by Temerian collaborators (led by the Bloody Baron) with Nilfgaard, specifically the Bloody Baron who is administrating the region while Nilfgaard prepares for its final push but maintains ties with his old allies.

* The Skellige affair is removed from the larger Nilfgaard war aside from the aborted invasion of the isles as well as their present belligerance against all visitors to it. It, however, deals with the larger theme of the game regarding the end of old ways to advance to new ones. Hjalmar represents a conservative approach, Cerys a peaceful domestication, and Bran the Younger representing aggressive modernization.

* There's a larger conflict dealing with the role of religion in society and its political misuse by various individuals. On one end, we have the Pellar, the followers of Freya, and Tamara representing its positive aspects contrasted versus its political misuse (Radovid, the Crones, the Witch Hunters, and All-God) with the overall effect showing superstition in a decidedly negative light.

If you dig deep enough, you'll find layers upon layers of meaning in Mario Bros.

Jk.

You do raise interesting points, but they are not directly related to politics and intrigue. The conflicts of the old ways vs witch hunters are more like philosophical in nature, not related to actual power and scheming.

The situation in Skelligue is just choose King A or B. Again I agree that the choice as to who might be better has deeper meaning and far reaching concequences that we can discuss a lot. But where is the actual scheming? The widow was interesting in a way, but the issue can be resolved by the Hjalmar going Leeroy and killing some shapeshifters. If taking that road led to the widow somehow winning, if Lugos had been involved in some way, then perhaps yes.

The mages as a player with any sort of real power is non existent.

The underground in Novigrad, which could have lead to so much more, is reduced to raiding a few places with the help of some dwarves.

I don't see the Baron involved in any plot whatsoever either.
 
Yes, had TW3 been about the irony of needing to become Nilfgaard in order to beat it, it would have been interesting and I would have completely agreed with it that it is thematically resonating.

I'm speaking from the Dijkstra ending which, contrary to what you believe, many a gamer can and does choose despite the Nilfgaardian sympathies some gamers choose to see in this game. I find Roche and Thaler's manipulation of Geralt for their plans to be enough to walk away with a look of disgust--sentimental attachments or not.

So it's only Temeria/Kaedwin/Redania vs. Nilfgaard--which is pretty big by itself.

For example, the idea of a "Redanian alliance" is non-existent, but rather it is simply Redania absorbing everyone else in ways that are not explained, or shown, in a matter of 6 months.

We have proof of such an alliance given Roche refers to such when discussing his relationship to Radovid and Geralt refers to Radovid as "Temeria's strongest ally" which Roche refutes because he's plotting a betrayal. Radovid ''only'' conquers Kaedwin as part of his efforts of military conquest and he's relying on Roche's assistance as partisan guerillas after their military efforts are smashed by Nilfgaard.

But here is the problem in your argument. Radovid is described, shown, and explicitly stated by the game itself in his ending to be MUCH WORSE than Nilfgaard. The game legitimately tells you that "freedom under Radovid is worse than subjugation under another" aka Nilfgaard. Unlike Nilfgaard, Radovid wants to purge all mages. Not only does Nilfgaard not do that, but contrary to book lore, it actually starts offering mage rights. Radovid wants to purge all nonhumans, while Nilfgaard does not. Radovid is shown, consistently, as being a much worse alternative than Nilfgaard.

The depiction of Radovid as a ruthless tyrant does present him as the worst option of the three but I don't think most gamers would consider the triumph of Nilfgaard anything but a disaster after walking through the low-fantasy hellhole of Velen's No Man's Land or through the burned villages of White Orchard. The fact the game shows Temeria recovers in the Roche ending is not, necessarily, one which can infer from events.

Radovid is the greater evil but one which Geralt might legitimately not choose to kill due to his avowed neutrality as well as concerns about the war effort.

So it is not at all a question of Redania becoming Nilfgaard, in order to beat it. That may only apply with Dijkstra, except again, there is no valid reason why Geralt would actually side with him, thus rendering that whole possibility not only inaccessible, but a minor subplot in an overall messy narrative.

Yes, that is one I strongly disagreed with as unspoiled, I didn't hesitate to leave the fight between Roche and Dijkstra.

Rather, it is a question of an absolutely irredeemable ending (Radovid) vs a rather good ending (Nilfgaard). That, to me, is not resonating, is simplistic, and quite frankly boring.

Nilfgaard continues its conquest and subjugation of the North in the "Nilfgaard wins" ending with Temeria getting back its rights. I do not consider this an ideal situation since I have no particular reason to believe this ending will benefit Skellige or Redania or the dozens of other kingdoms save in the most myopic pro-Temerian sense.

Amusingly, the Roche ending DOES show the Hegelian Didactic's effect on Nilfgaard, though. Just as the North is affected by the South to become more like Nilfgaard, it is because of the North's dogged endless resistance against Nilfgaard that they are able to force concessions from the Emperor which allow greater rights and protections for the people.

In short, forcing them to become less like themselves and more like the North.

Synthesis.

And the simple fact of the matter is that this is due to a clear desire to simplify the game. It is much easier to make it about Nilfgaard vs Redania, as opposed to make it about Nilfgaard vs Redania / Temerian resistance/ Kaedwen / Aedirnian resistance / other northern kingdoms, vs Scoia'tael (which the game ignores) / upper Aedirn / Valley of flowers neutral factions standing in the middle and weighting their options. And it is perhaps understandable that they would simplify, but they could have done so much better.

I think the plotline could have been much more developed but it's Radovid/Church of Eternal Fire/Conquered Kaedwin/Temerian Paristans vs. Nilfgaard/Bloody Baron's collaborators with Novigrad used as the fulcrum for what determines the war.

At least until it becomes Radovid and Dijkstra's assassination.
 
Last edited:
I'm speaking from the Dijkstra ending which, contrary to what you believe, many a gamer can and does choose despite the Nilfgaardian sympathies some gamers choose to see in this game. I find Roche and Thaler's manipulation of Geralt for their plans to be enough to walk away with a look of disgust--sentimental attachments or not.

It is in my opinion extremely out of character, and is an option that can only be chosen by a player not role playing Geralt as he is consistently described in both the books and the game but rather contrary to his character. It is more of a thought experiment than an actual, legitimate, choice.

Had the option been to side with Dijkstra, and then learn that he killed Roche and Ves behind your back, then I would have accepted it as a legitimate choice. As it stands however, having Geralt stand by and watch Roche and Ves die is out of character and runs contrary to every fiber of his being. It is out of all 3 games, the most OOC choice.

The depiction of Radovid as a ruthless tyrant does present him as the worst option of the three but I don't think most gamers would consider the triumph of Nilfgaard anything but a disaster after walking through the low-fantasy hellhole of Velen's No Man's Land or through the burned villages of White Orchard. The fact the game shows Temeria recovers in the Roche ending is not, necessarily, one which can infer from events.

The brutalities of Nilfgaard are in a context of a war where everyone expects them to be committed. It is a farcry however from systemic and institutionalized oppression and genocide.

Radovid is the greater evil but one which Geralt might legitimately not choose to kill due to his avowed neutrality as well as concerns about the war effort.

And the game pretty much tells you you made a horrible decision, and that Nilfgaardian subjugation would have been better. Not my words, but the game's itself. Not to mention the fact that it is Emhyr, and not Radovid, who actually helps you with the Wild Hunt (which incidentally is the only thing he really does in the game).


Nilfgaard continues its conquest and subjugation of the North in the "Nilfgaard wins" ending with Temeria getting back its rights. I do not consider this an ideal situation since I have no particular reason to believe this ending will benefit Skellige or Redania or the dozens of other kingdoms save in the most myopic pro-Temerian sense.

Except you also have the genocide against mages and nonhumans stopped, mages given more rights, and as the game ending described, all being well, with no a single negative mentioned.
Dijkstra's ending, which is the only possible contender to being a good ending (except unlike nilfgaard, it is not described in purely positive light), is accessible only through blatant OOC behavior and questionable role play. I am sorry if this sounds like me invalidating your choices, but I am convinced as are many on the board that Geralt would never behave that way. Even the questionable options given to use in TW1 and 2 were presented and contextualized in such a way that it makes sense for him, as a character, to pick it.

---------- Updated at 05:37 AM ----------

I think the plotline could have been much more developed but it's Radovid/Church of Eternal Fire/Conquered Kaedwin/Temerian Paristans vs. Nilfgaard/Bloody Baron's collaborators with Novigrad used as the fulcrum for what determines the war..

Conquered Kaedwen is not in the game. It is not represented. It is not shown. It is not even mentioned. Temerian partisans are only really shown through Thaler and Roche, who are pro-Nilfgaard (Natalis inexplicably disapeared,as did Anais). Church of Eternal Fire is not presented as a player in the war (and the Order disappeared).

This is not at all like how TW2 engaged dozens of major and minor factions in the game, shown explicitly and actively. Not just mentioned or having to rely on the conjecture of players.
 
Last edited:
The Dijkstra Choice

Before any continuation of that conversation, I should mention my reasoning for the Geralt siding with Dijkstra comes from the fact that I took the actions by Thaler and Roche to be an unforgivable act of betrayal. The fact Thaler flat-out states that they used Geralt's sympathies for the mages of Novigrad to manipulate his feelings to use him as an assassin is one that I do not think the book or video game Geralt would take lying down.

It is one of the biggest things Geralt has ever been unflinching on and that has been his REFUSAL to be an assassin. A Witcher's blade is his own and the choice by Thaler, Roche, and Dijkstra to a lesser extent is to involve him as nothing more than a common murderer for hire is one which he'd be repulsed by. The fact they do so with the intent of selling Aedirn, including the Pontar Valley that Geralt may or may not have EXTRAORDINARILY strong feelings regarding, plus Lyria to Nilfgaard's banner is also something that would not go unnoticed.

In short, I argue strongly Geralt's reaction would not be to save Roche and Thaler but walk away in pure disgust to let them resolve the issue themselves. He would not fight to defend people who'd broken his trust in the most offensive manner possible.

Albeit, the events at Kaer Morhen might well be a tipping scale otherwise.
 
Last edited:
Geralt would assassinate someone like Radovid in a heartbeat, in the same way he would kill Loredo or Jacques de Aldersberg. This myth of political neutrality does not represent Geralt. He is not apolitical no matter how much he wants to be. He risked his life protecting nonhumans and he would not stand by and watch Radovid turn everything to shit.

So a Geralt that is hurt by Roche and Thaler wanting his help to get rid of Radovid is equally OOC, as he would want to do so or feel compelled to.

An interesting role play for another character, but is fundamentally contrary to what Geralt is, that I can't but see your line of thought as illegitimate. Of course that does not deprive you of the right to enjoy said choice, as my statement is completely irrelevant to your own enjoyment.
 
Geralt would assassinate someone like Radovid in a heartbeat, in the same way he would kill Loredo or Jacques de Aldersberg. This myth of political neutrality does not represent Geralt. He is not apolitical no matter how much he wants to be. He risked his life protecting nonhumans and he would not stand by and watch Radovid turn everything to shit.

So a Geralt that is hurt by Roche and Thaler wanting his help to get rid of Radovid is equally OOC, as he would want to do so or feel compelled to.

An interesting role play for another character, but is fundamentally contrary to what Geralt is, that I can't but see your line of thought as illegitimate. Of course that does not deprive you of the right to enjoy said choice, as my statement is completely irrelevant to your own enjoyment.

I fundamentally disagree with your interpretation of Geralt. Geralt would kill Radovid to protect mages and the innocent.

He'd also kill Roche, Thaler, and Dijkstra for having him kill Radovid for POLITICS.

“And so I repeat”—Geralt bowed his head a little—“that I can't contain my pride to be sitting next to you, ma'am. And pride means a very great deal to us witchers. You wouldn't believe how much. A lord once offended a witcher's pride by proposing a job that wasn't in keeping with either honor or the witcher's code. What's more, he didn't accept a polite refusal and wished to prevent the witcher from leaving his castle. Afterward, everyone agreed this wasn't one of his best ideas.”

“Geralt,” said Calanthe, after a moment's silence, “you were wrong. You're a very interesting dinner companion.”


Simply put, Geralt is no one's pawn and Roche and Thaler forfeited any protection by not playing straight with him.

But I doubt we'll come to a consensus on this.
 
I fundamentally disagree with your interpretation of Geralt. Geralt would kill Radovid to protect mages and the innocent.

He'd also kill Roche, Thaler, and Dijkstra for having him kill Radovid for POLITICS.


So essentially what you are saying is that Geralt, even though he completely agrees to kill Radovid because he is clearly a lunatic, would throw a fit because Roche and Thaler clearly want to do something about saving Temeria, their home?

And then would allow Dijkstra to kill them while surrounding them and having them out-numbered for even more political reasons and actual personal ambition and lust for power, out of spite because they somehow didn't respect his honor?

Your version of Geralt sounds....well questionable in my eyes. And runs completely contrary to both TW1 and 2.
 
Willowhugger i totally disagree about you thinking Thaler and Roche betrayed Geralt or that even Geralt himself felt betrayed. Its not like he thought that they were all doing it for the mages and non-humans that was never their game, not something Roche or Thaler were known to stand for. Besides Geralt did it for his own reasons, what they got out of it wasn't really his business, he only wanted to know the truth, but that didn't change a thing. I'm totally with Phoenix guy here.
 
So essentially what you are saying is that Geralt, even though he completely agrees to kill Radovid because he is clearly a lunatic, would throw a fit because Roche and Thaler clearly want to do something about saving Temeria, their home?

And then would allow Dijkstra to kill them while surrounding them and having them out-numbered for even more political reasons and actual personal ambition and lust for power, out of spite because they somehow didn't respect his honor?

Your version of Geralt sounds....well questionable in my eyes. And runs completely contrary to both TW1 and 2.

I'm surprised that a man with as much experience as you with won't notice that Geralt repeatedly has been prone to finding himself set in impossible or terrible situations because of his moral code. In AOK, he unwittingly sets off a pogrom by giving Iorveth a sword. He can result in the mass purge of witches by attempting to serve the greater good by saving Saskia over saving Triss. One mission can have Geralt save a man imprisoned, only to end up fighting that men when he's discovered to be a bandit.

In the case of Geralt, the motivations of Thaler and Roche won't MATTER because of the same reason that Geralt is DISGUSTED with the Nilfgaardian commander in Act I. Geralt is blackmailed by the Nilfgaardian commander into slaying the griffon and then can turn down the gold he's offered because of the loathing he has that the man (who did this to guarantee Geralt will save the lives of the innocent as well as protect his men) wouldn't play straight with him.

Geralt's loathing is because the man wouldn't think he'd do it for the greater good anyway.

He had to be used as a pawn.

Thaler and Roche made Geralt party to an under-the-table deal with Nilfgaard by using his sympathies for mages against him--guaranteeing he had a part in abetting Nilfgaard's invasion. Geralt might have chosen otherwise but the lack of respect would not go unnoticed or the fact it was done in the name of politics rather than their friendship or cause. No, Geralt wouldn't necessarily kill them himself, but he wouldn't lift a finger for those people who don't think he's worth talking to as an equal.

And this is a VERY PRICKLY thing with our hero.

---------- Updated at 06:07 AM ----------

Willowhugger i totally disagree about you thinking Thaler and Roche betrayed Geralt or that even Geralt himself felt betrayed. Its not like he thought that they were all doing it for the mages and non-humans that was never their game, not something Roche or Thaler were known to stand for. Besides Geralt did it for his own reasons, what they got out of it wasn't really his business, he only wanted to know the truth, but that didn't change a thing. I'm totally with Phoenix guy here.

Thaler upfront admits he manipulated Geralt and Geralt can walk away.

So I disagree.

But the mutability of Geralt's decisions is part of the fun of the game. He has a core but can reach different conclusions based on varying circumstances.
 
I'm surprised that a man with as much experience as you with won't notice that Geralt repeatedly has been prone to finding himself set in impossible or terrible situations because of his moral code. In AOK, he unwittingly sets off a pogrom by giving Iorveth a sword. He can result in the mass purge of witches by attempting to serve the greater good by saving Saskia over saving Triss. One mission can have Geralt save a man imprisoned, only to end up fighting that men when he's discovered to be a bandit.

*Unwittingly* being the key term.

Here, he is choosing to help or allow someone who clearly lusts for personal power a hell lot more than Roche and Thaler, get his way after betraying his colleagues and ambushing them. There is not a single choice in the entire trilogy that is equivalent to that.

In the case of Geralt, the motivations of Thaler and Roche won't MATTER because of the same reason that Geralt is DISGUSTED with the Nilfgaardian commander in Act I. Geralt is blackmailed by the Nilfgaardian commander into slaying the griffon and then can turn down the gold he's offered because of the loathing he has that the man (who did this to guarantee Geralt will save the lives of the innocent as well as protect his men) wouldn't play straight with him.

There is a difference between rejecting a reward, and just stand by and watch you die because you offended him. Geralt is not a spiteful child, and the way you play him, he is.

But in any case, we won't reach common grounds on this, so I doubt there is much utility in discussing it further.
 
In my opinion, as I gathered from the books and games, Geralt is not out to make the world a better place. Persecutions of mages and non-humans are not something unknown or unexpected. It happened many times before, and all Northern kings participated in large-scale genocides. With Geralt's clear distaste for the school of the cat, and assassins in general, he simply wouldn't help Roche. Geralt has a chance to help mages by other means, and it is as much as he would be ready to go. He does not consider himself either divine avenger, or moral paragon. He helps people in need when abuse is perpetrated in his presence, but he wouldn't go out of his way to change the system. So, I would say, my classical Geralt would simply refuse, and Radovid wins the war. Then eventually all mages and non-humans will be killed off, there will be a time of peace (at least until Radovid marches south to take Cintra), and in a hundred years all these unpleasantness won't be remembered any more that Albigensian Crusade is remembered now.
 
Yeah, essentially it's a case of differing values. Your positive view of Nilfgaardian occupation inclines you to view the treaty positively and not as a massively negative thing. My negative view of the Nilfgaardian occupation means that this backroom deal between Thaler, Roche, and Nilfgaard is one where Geralt would feel very betrayed and want to support anyone who would fight on.

In short, it's exactly the sort of division which should exist in fandom.

Kudos, CD_Projekt Red.

---------- Updated at 06:17 AM ----------

In my opinion, as I gathered from the books and games, Geralt is not out to make the world a better place. Persecutions of mages and non-humans are not something unknown or unexpected. It happened many times before, and all Northern kings participated in large-scale genocides. With Geralt's clear distaste for the school of the cat, and assassins in general, he simply wouldn't help Roche. Geralt has a chance to help mages by other means, and it is as much as he would be ready to go. He does not consider himself either divine avenger, or moral paragon. He helps people in need when abuse is perpetrated in his presence, but he wouldn't go out of his way to change the system. So, I would say, my classical Geralt would simply refuse, and Radovid wins the war. Then eventually all mages and non-humans will be killed off, there will be a time of peace (at least until Radovid marches south to take Cintra), and in a hundred years all these unpleasantness won't be remembered any more that Albigensian Crusade is remembered now.

+1 very good point.

Honestly, I'm inclined to agree. However, we're not playing strictly the Geralt of the books but a more politically active and less neutral character affected by his death and resurrection plus the ensuing months as an amnesiac egged on to be more politically active by Triss.

It's why I felt that the "Radovid Ending" wasn't a complete non-starter in my essay.

It's far from such but most gamers would never accept it because they don't think in terms like the above like the books.
 
Top Bottom