Poll - How much should combat there be in CP2077?

[Decatonkeil]

I chose 40%. Mostly for the description. Solos will have more, medias and corporates may have less. We are also talking about a game in which we hope the player will be able to define what approach he or she wants to take in the game. Solos can solve everything with brute force if they want, while those more sneaky, resourceful or with better social skills will try and do it in other ways. I feel that an RPG should have a balanced proportion of situations in which our character can shine, situations in which our character is average and situations in which we wish we had chosen other skills. And this should apply for all character types, a solo should also be trapped in situations in which the player wished he had invested in skills other than combat based ones.

 

[Harthwain]

40%.

Combat is supposed to be lethal and final - in most cases - so it should not be consisting majority of gameplay (and thus - forcing other, non-combat classes, to fight). It should be exciting and dangerous, but unnecessary or unadvised, although possible. Unless you're well prepared and specialized. However, it does not mean there should not be combat at all or that you should be able to talk yourself out of every situation if you make a mistake along the way. When it happens you should be able to use your smarts to emerge alive though.

RPG is not about choice, it's about narrative/story.

RPG is about choice. It always was. Narrative alone does not distinguish RPGs from other games with narratives. Choice does.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Problem with that is, it gives players an easy-out from hard choices. If you can talk your way out of everything, it's not a very grim and gritty game, is it? If you can convince murderous gang members - who hate you - not to murder you because you say the right things, well, that kind of jars in a Dark Future setting.

It does depend on how it is arranged, though.

It isn't necessarily an easy way if talking your way out bears a consequence beyond saving yourself from fighting. The thug leader might show signs of weakness by dealing with you and needs to show off to his gang that he's still the top dog by killing a few innocent people (their deaths are, even if indirectly, on you), and perhaps some of those people happen to be someones important and useful to you in some manner (and it doesn't matter if you don't know that at the spot; learning that later on is more delicious.... "I probably should've avoided the thugs, killed them, or taken my chances for running"), perhaps the narrative produces grieving relatives to remind you that this sort of shit happens. Dealing with gangers peacefully might earn you street cred and send a wrong kind of message to someone else who might not appreciate your dealings with them (to your detriment with him/them). Maybe a diplomatic path with the tugs is only going to work if you do a deal with them that might not suit your approach and, again, sends a wrong kind of message to some other big or small players within the game that's not in favor of deals with gangsters. And so on...

More over, being able to peacefully solve all or most instances, might mean some heavy specialization with your character build, meaning some tough decisions there.

 

[ReptilePZ]

Want it to be 20% - 40% but voted 60% because, let's be realistic here, it's a vidya gaem. Ideally, I would have liked a 53.8949 % option.

Also, I like how Suhiira gave up halfway through the question.

 

[Suhiira]

Didn't give up, I just don't want to influence opinions.
Of course that assumes anyone pays attention to what I say ... :crybaby:

 

[Sardukhar]

Didn't give up, I just don't want to influence opinions.
Of course that assumes anyone pays attention to what I say ... :crybaby:

What?

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

RPG is about choice. It always was. Narrative alone does not distinguish RPGs from other games with narratives. Choice does.

 

[Sardukhar]

Actually, I think we settled this - at least for around here - on our poll!

http://forums.cdprojektred.com/threads/29535-What-makes-an-RPG

1st. Choice and Consequences

2nd. Ability to express personality

3rd. A story

So, for the forums purposes, an RPG is made of those three elements, with choice being first. Ah, democracy.

Now, back to percentage of combat desired. If you'd like to debate RPG makeup, I have gloriously provided you the link!

 

[ReptilePZ]

Didn't give up, I just don't want to influence opinions.
Of course that assumes anyone pays attention to what I say ... :crybaby:

You didn't want to influence opinions so... you messed up the word order in the question?

This is some next level psychology shit.

 

[Suhiira]

You didn't want to influence opinions so... you messed up the word order in the question?

This is some next level psychology shit.

Actually it's a matter of thinking faster then I can type and not double checking before I post.

 

[Phinnway]

I have mixed thoughts about this. When I think back to my time spent playing Deus Ex (the original) less than 20% of my time was spent fighting enemies so I would be inclined to pick that option. However, I agree with the statement "Combat should sometimes be necessary, but usually not." If combat isn't necessary at least some of the time than I feel like skills that allow you to by-pass combat by mind-controlling robots or whatever are kind of arbitrary.

So I would like there to be enough combat to make skills that let you avoid combat useful. But I'd like to spend the majority of my time in-game exploring the game and solving mysteries/puzzles/quests (or whatever it is you do in Cyberpunk.) I definitely do not want it to be an action game.

I think combat should largely be where the player finds it to be a plausible course of action, and most often presented not as a random event out of the blue, but as a consequence of the PC's previous immediate or from further back actions. And combat should be considered a serious matter that has consequence and reactivity beyond who gets killed or hurt and who wins; ramifications between the PC and the party/parties that are a part in the engagement. Something to make the player think a bit before jumping in and start shooting at others.

This sums up what I want perfectly. I want combat to be a possible course of action --a choice the player can make. Not the main course of action by default. I think you could argue that in The Witcher combat is the default way Geralt solves problems. But then again, Geralt doesn't have the diverse set of skills you can have in Cyberpunk. He is mainly just a bad-ass warrior.

RPG is not about choice, it's about narrative/story.

What ...? Role-Playing Games aren't about player choice? If that's the case then people might as well read books instead.

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

What ...? Role-Playing Games aren't about player choice? If that's the case then people might as well read books instead.

So what genre is Final fantasy then?

This kitten knows:

But anyway, in an effort to prevent the Prince of Darkness er, I mean Sard from mutilating this thread.

I do hope for choice that allows for a peaceful walkthrough, in gameplay not in narrative. Meaning I don't want pick the correct dialogue, you go in peace. It should be part of an overall strategy and have its own risks.

In Mount and Blade, there was a trading system and you could get wealthy simply by trading and collecting (massive) interest.

It was something CDPR considered for TW3 (at least the economic part), but they scrapped it because it wasn't part of Geralt's make-up. I do hope they revisit the idea for CP2077 since we get to make our own character.

 

[Sardukhar]

I do hope for choice that allows for a peaceful walkthrough, in gameplay not in narrative. Meaning I don't want pick the correct dialogue, you go in peace. It should be part of an overall strategy and have its own risks.

Yes - I'd also like to see combat not just as a say-right-thing-escape-fight, but more of a say-certain-thing-maybe-reduce-or-avoid-fight-but-also-maybe-cause-other-conflicts.

So rather than a clear "don't get shot at option" from stealth or chat, I'd like to see a more complex gameplay scenario where you could avoid some combat now but really set yourself up later..or choose to fight now and avoid later trouble, depending on your foes and setting, for example.

So there wouldn't really be a clear-cut percentage of must-have combat, but instead a more layered approach where your choices resulted in more and more complex permutations.

 

[Decatonkeil]

Maybe to have a full non-lethal option that is also varied, we could also have options to engage in conversation or negotiation, even if it's very simple, with pretty much every NPC. Bribery could also be an option. I imagine entering a gang territory and being able to start an exchange with a ganger with very minimal interchangeable and reusable pieces of dialogue which would make a dialogue tree: "Take me to your boss" (skill check will determine the outcome and maybe how it sounds) ... then if we get to the boss maybe we can do things like causing a confrontation: "I know which gang is up against you" > "bozos/maelstrom/philarmonic vampires"... depending on our skill check this may need more steps, maybe the gang leader asks us "I guess you have evidence to back this up", then we can make up evidence or bring an item, maybe a recording made by a character wit media skills, maybe paydata stolen by a netrunner, maybe it's edited. > "I found someone sneak up into your territory (show trophy of your fight against it)" > "I can help you against them somehow (and this may be again violent or non-violent)" and so on...

 

[Cyber_Death]

I went solo and picked the "80% Combat is required to accomplish most things" option. It's a CyberPunk game & I want to utilize all weaponry, gadgets, optical gear, armor, augments, etc. I really want this game to be heavy with customization & I want to experience each upgrade through combat. If stealth is implemented, then I suppose that's another reason for there to be a focal point on combat/gameplay.

 

[BlackWolf500.298]

I would prefer going with a Deus Ex / Dishonored / Mass Effect kind of approach.
Combat is an important part but not a necessity, which means based on your skills you can SNEAK in a situation or fight or talk yourself out of a situation.
I really hope there is Stealth, big Stealth fan here.

Of course, that being said, not EVERY situation should be solvable without combat, some may require while others might create conflicts somewhere later in the game, but gameplay-wise there should definitely be a lot of options for Stealth and SOME options for talking yourself out of the situation.

 

[Sardukhar]

Of course, that being said, not EVERY situation should be solvable without combat, some may require while others might create conflicts somewhere later in the game, but gameplay-wise there should definitely be a lot of options for Stealth and SOME options for talking yourself out of the situation.

Good news! Cyberpunk 2020 has a stealth skill - in fact, a whole slew of skills and variations, shadow/track, survival, etc - as well as counters. Not to mention tech,cyber and skill modifiers for same!

Bad news - Cyberpunk 2020 tries for realism, which means stealth is REALLY HARD to do, with infrared, thermals, Combat Sense, motion detectors, sonar and radar built-in, etc.

There aren't any convenient invisibility powers or handy boxes to hide behind while idiot NPCs fail to look there. You go to sneak, everyone gets an awareness check. Very challenging.

 

[BlackWolf500.298]

Bad news - Cyberpunk 2020 tries for realism, which means stealth is REALLY HARD to do, with infrared, thermals, Combat Sense, motion detectors, sonar and radar built-in, etc.

This would only make it more fun for me I guess. I'm a Stealth Gamer and play most Stealth games on the hardest difficulty, old ones as well.

There aren't any convenient invisibility powers or handy boxes to hide behind while idiot NPCs fail to look there. You go to sneak, everyone gets an awareness check. Very challenging.

Okay, you got to explain this one to me. How is it stealth if you can not hide behind objects or slip by if people look elsewhere or if you can not Hitman-like make your way through.

There are about 3 forms of Stealth at the moment.

1. Take them all out by surprise (easiest IMO)
2. Slip past everyone by hiding and sneaking
3. Disguise yourself

So how.... is this going to work without any of this and can still be called Stealth?
Also, what are awareness checks?

 

[Sardukhar]

Cyberpunk 2020, the PnP RPG 2077 is based on, approaches Stealth like this: you say what you are going to do, "I sneak across to the forklift and hide behind it while the guards are talking." and then you roll your Stealth skill, plus any bonuses from gear, lack of light, rain, etc.

To detect you, the guards get an Awareness/Notice check, modified by their gear, if they are looking your way, level of paranoia, etc. Each guard and each observer system.

Thing is, in Cyberpunk, the visual range isn't like in videogames. If you can see them, they can see you. Yes, darkness helps, ( beaten by infrared/thermals), noise cover helps, (boosted audio, motion detector, sonar/radar built in) but the thing is, there isn't any "half-blind" NPCs a la Deus Ex or Dishonored.

Often, the enemy has Awareness/Notice really, really good, too. Because they are soldiers, cops or gang members in a violent world and they are dependent on it.

So you have to sneak into a facilty and pass every Stealth check, against detection gear, electronic systems, AIs and human patrols that are only going to be, in the Cyberpunk system, a few points worse at spotting you than you are at being hidden. Because, again, reality - the range of capability isn't superhuman typically.

As for disguise..in the real world or Cyberpunk...mercs know each other. So do cops. Gang members. Etc. You can try to bluff your way in, of course...

SO it's tough, really tough, to stay hidden that long. Try it sometime, sneaking around at night and not being seen by people whose job it is to spot you. Or sneaking up to within stab range. And you have to do this every time, whereas they only have to get lucky once.

It's thrilling, but it's tough.

 

[Phinnway]

I would prefer going with a Deus Ex / Dishonored / Mass Effect kind of approach.
Combat is an important part but not a necessity, which means based on your skills you can SNEAK in a situation or fight or talk yourself out of a situation.
I really hope there is Stealth, big Stealth fan here.

Of course, that being said, not EVERY situation should be solvable without combat, some may require while others might create conflicts somewhere later in the game, but gameplay-wise there should definitely be a lot of options for Stealth and SOME options for talking yourself out of the situation.

There are plenty of ways to avoid combat other than just stealth and talking your way out of the situation. Frankly, I think restricting it to those two things is limiting to the player. I mean, this is a CyberPunk game after all. There are loads of ways I can think of using futuristic technology to avoid a group of guards that doesn't involve direct combat or sneaking past them. In Deus Ex 1, for example, you could hack computers, scramble robots, find secret passage ways, find items with limited ammo that would temporarily make combat easier, etc. You shouldn't restrict it to a Combat-Stealth-Persuasion system just because that's what other games have used.