[POLL] : Layered Music / Culture discussion

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DO YOU WANT A LAYERED MUSIC SYSTEM LIKE THIS?

  • YES

    Votes: 25 80.6%
  • NO

    Votes: 6 19.4%

  • Total voters
    31
TL: DR - Scroll down below the line for the FEATURE overview and example links. If you have questions, ask.
  • See #27 for my approach to music (How to ADD to what CDPR is doing).
  • See #30 for an example of CULTURE vs. Genre (UPDATED).
  • See #19 for info about CLUBS.
  • See #50 for speculation on BRYAN MANTIA and MELISSA REESE. (UPDATED)
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NOTHING I'M SUGGESTING HERE HAS BEEN APPROVED BY CDPR.

WHAT DO WE KNOW?
  • CDPR is creating music internally for 2077. Probably a "Score" (thematic music without lyrics).
  • CDPR is creating all new "Soundtrack" music for SAMURAI (popular music with lyrics).
  • CDPR is creating other new music too (details unknown)
  • CDPR likely has a more elegant system than my proposal (BUT let's talk about CULTURE / Licensed music)

WHAT AM I PROPOSING?

A layered in-game music system. Separate from promo music (ala "Spoiler" or "Bullets").
  • Base layer: Dynamic SCORE - Event cues (Marcin Przybylowicz)
  • Mid layer: SOUNDTRACK - Environmental audio (Bryan Mantia / Melissa Reese / Licensed)
  • Top layer: SOUNDTRACK - "NIGHT CITY Radio" (Bryan Mantia / Melissa Reese / Licensed)
___________________________________________________________________________________
WHAT'S THE PURPOSE OF THE BASE SCORE LAYER? (Global)

This is instrumental music that triggers based on what's going on in the world, narrative or as the result of player actions. Sometimes it's used to set the mood of a scene. Example:
WHAT'S THE PURPOSE OF THE MID SOUNDTRACK LAYER? (Regional)

This is music specifically chosen to create a "fingerprint" for each district and culture that comprises Night City. Every area will have a musical style that is unique to itself. Unlike the Base Layer, which is underscore, this layer would be what the characters in the game world actually hear. It's the music that plays on the streets, in clubs, or in stores. Raw in places like Pacifica, glossy in places like Commercial Center. PACIFICA COMBAT ZONE example:

WHAT'S THE PURPOSE OF THE TOP SOUNDTRACK LAYER? (Global)

This is a connective tissue for the different districts and could be used to highlight player style. Something like "Night City Radio" that plays while V is driving / walking around. It's player-selected, but it ties the whole world together. It could be as corporate or street as CDPR would allow. Mainstream CORPOculture, SUBculture and COUNTERculture could be included.

DO PLAYERS WANT LICENSED MUSIC?

Short answer: Yes. Let's talk! ;) Or skip ahead to #46 (UPDATED)

VOTE in the poll. Questions and comments welcome. Thanks.
 
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Yessir. That's what I'm referring to above as the BASE LAYER.

Something like community driven thing? This IP is already unknown/underground IP, if anything they need boost in marketting, so hire some famous/known Artist to make a track, music industry tend to like Royalty deals, give some to Artist and sure you can find someone to make one. Community driven thing is more suitable for Witcher series as it has already somekind of fan-base.

How about C-Bool? Polish long term Artist, cant go wrong trusting in your country men.
 
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Don't you think the middle layer is already present and is being filled by the various elements present in the world? Such as narrations coming from advertisements and npc chatter?

Like you could hear few advertisements in languages that were supposedly from asian countries when you are walking among all the NPCs in Watson. Someone playing music that sounded link Indian music near 17:35 of the demo. We saw few women with Hijab and other asian shopkeepers selling their stuff. Also when you enter Misty's shop you can notice the peaceful audio tune that these shops use to create a relaxed environment.

I think this "enviornmental story telling" through sounds but not just music is doing what you are stating. Also i think even top layer music can be used here, right? The radio songs we hear can have different context depending on the place it is used. Like maybe some teenagers are listening to "chippin in" on the streets which would make complete sense, as compared to hearing that song in a corpo environment.

Regarding Licensed music, at this point i am just heavily against it. Maybe it just rubs me the wrong way because the soundtrack suggestion for this game has been so forced by the fans. And apart from that, the idea that they are making all soundtrack in studio including proper songs is way more exciting than them using music that is already there.

I hope i made sense and if i completely misunderstood you, can you share more examples for games or movies? that use this layer system, because from my point of view it already looks like all of these are there just maybe not in the exact way you are mentioning.
 
Something like community driven thing? This IP is already unknown/underground IP, if anything they need boost in marketting, so hire some famous/known Artist to make a track, music industry tend to like Royalty deals, give some to Artist and sure you can find someone to make one. Community driven thing is more suitable for Witcher series as it has already somekind of fan-base.

How about C-Bool? Polish long term Artist, cant go wrong trusting in your country men.

Thanks for your comment. I'll try to answer your questions the best I can.

The music of the BASE LAYER I'm describing is the content that's been confirmed by CDPR already. (Bryan Mantia / Melissa Reese)

What I'm suggesting is the possible addition of two extra layers of music. (How those could be used is described above). My approach to those (MID/TOP) layers is that they would be separate from the music used for promotion ("Boost in marketting").

So I'm less concerned about how well known an artist is than whether the music says something about the people in that part of Night city.

Let's look at a MID LAYER example.

We don't know much *officially* about PACIFICA in 2077. But we do know that it's an impoverished slum district that is likely highly dangerous. When you look at the metro map (which has been re-created in high-res on Reddit) you can see there aren't even stations there. It's literally the end of the line. Pacifica is "The other side of the tracks".

(I'm guessing that these are) the people on the receiving end of Corporate Neo-Feudalism. They live the raw, meat-hook reality of the decisions made in boardrooms. The forgotten. The expendable. The angry. How would such people express those feelings musically? What would it sound like? So IMHO it should be a counterculture backlash to that dystopia. Raw production. Apathy. Hopelessness. Undirected rage. Dispair. The exact OPPOSITE of the highly polished, narcissistic and pro-consumerism music you might hear in WESTBROOK (Elites) or CITY CENTER (Liesure Class).

Here are some examples as style references. Don't put too much emphasis on whether you like these tracks personally since that's not what I'm trying to do here. I'm not even saying these specific tracks should be licensed. What I'm after is the *feel*. I do think "Street Level" music should feature more mixing of genres than Corpo music. My gut tells me that this music should make normies uncomfortable. It should chew up genres and vomit them back into the face of society. If my music suggestions for Pacifica don't have "edge" I'm doing something wrong.

PS- I'll give C-Bool a listen. Thanks for the heads up!

https://soundcloud.com/user-227051119%2Fsets%2Fnight-city_2077_pacifica
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Don't you think the middle layer is already present and is being filled by the various elements present in the world? Such as narrations coming from advertisements and npc chatter?

Like you could hear few advertisements in languages that were supposedly from asian countries when you are walking among all the NPCs in Watson. Someone playing music that sounded link Indian music near 17:35 of the demo. We saw few women with Hijab and other asian shopkeepers selling their stuff. Also when you enter Misty's shop you can notice the peaceful audio tune that these shops use to create a relaxed environment.

I think this "enviornmental story telling" through sounds but not just music is doing what you are stating. Also i think even top layer music can be used here, right? The radio songs we hear can have different context depending on the place it is used. Like maybe some teenagers are listening to "chippin in" on the streets which would make complete sense, as compared to hearing that song in a corpo environment.

Regarding Licensed music, at this point i am just heavily against it. Maybe it just rubs me the wrong way because the soundtrack suggestion for this game has been so forced by the fans. And apart from that, the idea that they are making all soundtrack in studio including proper songs is way more exciting than them using music that is already there.

I hope i made sense and if i completely misunderstood you, can you share more examples for games or movies? that use this layer system, because from my point of view it already looks like all of these are there just maybe not in the exact way you are mentioning.

Thank you for your questions and comments. I agree with you that some of the goals I'm after in the MID LAYER are being at least partially addressed by CDPR in the ways you describe. What I'm looking to do is suppliment those ways.

When you say "The radio songs we hear can have different context depending on the place it is used" that is EXACTLY what I am talking about with one exception (use case).

  • The MID layer would be Environmental Music that you hear echoing through alleys, in clubs, on the street, or used as event cues. So EACH district would have it's own unique MID layer musically. Step off the metro in Watson and the music you'd hear would be different than stepping off the metro in Heywood.
  • The TOP layer is a streamed "Radio" that the player can connect to at any time. Unlike the MID layer, the TOP layer would be global instead of district based. That's what I meant above by "Connective Tissue".
  • A song like "Chippin' In" could appear in both the MID layer and TOP layer as SAMURAI is so well known. People bump it in the streets as well as stream it via online "Radio".

I understand your reservations regarding licensed music. While I definitely have my own methodology regarding how I curate suggestions, I'm not even suggesting that I am the right guy to pitch music to CDPR. I'm operating on EXTREMELY limited information and will probably be stylisitically off target from their current vision. But that isn't always a bad thing. An alternate interpretation can lead to a wider variety of influences... variety you would find in a large city.

One of the questions I've tried to ask myself when thinking about this is "how do you make music released prior to 2020 IRL work in a 2077 setting?" I have two thoughts on that.

  1. I don't have to fully solve that problem as CDPR has done that work themselves by crafting all new music.
  2. Nostalgia is cyclical. People in 2019 listen to music written and performed 50+ years ago as long as the themes and *feel* of that music still connects with them. What I've tried to do (in the case of indie artists) is either find tracks that match the themes or (in the case of known music) use ONLY remixes and cover versions of songs. Cyberpunk should always be reinventing and reinterpreting culture when looking backward and forward. For the most part, I've intentionally sought music that most mainstream gamers are unfamiliar with (I can explain why if there is interest). And most of it incorporates technology into the production on some level.

Does this help to answer your questions?
 
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So, how do you know if there isnt layers already? Do you really think they went with something so simple?

Devs can do pretty awesome job these days, Doom was quite nice, how the music changed during the game and the game itself was extremely action and fast based. Even they hired couple dudes at the beginning of the development, there should be excellent music for all parts of the game, how long this game has been in development, 4 year? Hell, even I could get something decent out in 4 years.

Im totally happy with "Music never heard before" at least for now. I actually believe its gonna be Synthwave or Doomstep. Or maybe both, Synthwave for atmosphere and Doomstep for action parts. Both styles are extremely rare in the world.

This sounds like some Doomstep and DnB mix, imo.
 
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So, how do you know if there isnt layers already? Do you really think they went with something so simple?

I don't. From my original post:

"CDPR may *already* have systems in place like this. We just don't know, but it's worth gauging interest."

Devs can do pretty awesome job these days

Absolutely. I have seen that first hand from my time in the industry.

Im totally happy with "Music never heard before" at least for now.

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to hearing what they do on that. I'm in no way arguing against the music that CDPR is crafting internally. I'm merely suggesting a possible means of supplimenting it.

I actually believe its gonna be Synthwave or Doomstep.

I think you are highlighting something I touched on briefly earlier in this thread... and that is player expectation. In reviewing many of the suggestions that people have made in this forum I get the sense that most associate the Synthwave, Industrial, 90's style techno/trance genres with Cyberpunk. And that makes a lot of sense when you think about the era in which Gibson's books and Cyberpunk 2020 were released. The world is constantly evolving and advancing culturally. CDPR is in a tough spot.

On the one hand, if CDPR's music was heavily biased in favor of those genres I think they run the risk of being criticized for taking the "easy" way out creatively. Of playing it too safe. (I'm not saying that IS easy, only that people may not think they pushed the envelope enough.)

But by choosing the most ambitious approach (which is very brave) they run the risk of alienating less iconoclastic people. There may be mainstream pushback.

I don't work at CDPR and I'm not the vision holder for the music in 2077. I'm just a long time fan of Mike Pondsmith's vision of the Cyberpunk genre with some industry experience. The goal of my proposal is to surprise the audience with the unexpected (Mantia/Reese) AND give them what they DO expect in an unexpected way.

Whether anything actually comes of that will be up to the community of these forums and whether CDPR sees any value in my approach to the material. It's a long shot. But you never know.
 
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Your are talking like CDPR is EA or Activision or shall we say Rockstar/2k-games after GTA5 too.

This is their debut, this should be enough, best of luck with your idea though. Most games doesnt care nothing at all about their music throuhgout their lifetime, and this game is already promising music what has never been heard before. Even EA uses some crap music from the past, I remember something from EA and it involved Smashing Pumpking really? You are way ahead of your time. Fallout series? Country Road, yeah.
 
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Simple WALKTRHOUGH (hypothetical example)

Don't worry if you aren't into any of these music tracks. They're just placeholders to show the idea (cultural diversity between districts). So these aren't only going to be the sterotypical "Cyberpunk music" genres. Instead it's about themes and context. TRACKS CAN EASILY BE CHANGED.

"V is at her apartment in Watson. Small time local fixer has given her an easy job. Pick up this car from outside a club in City Center and drive it over Westbrook, no questions asked. Keep a low profile. He left her a... key? Quaint. As she opens her door music flows in. Korean Hip Hop. Sounds like the gym. Iron Mike's wrecking the boxing bot... again. She sits and watches him for a few minutes. Stick. Move. Hell of a right hook."


"Past Second Amendment and down the elevator to the ground level. Rain drops plink plink plink off steel, asphalt and buzzing neon. The streets open up in front of her like the tide receding before a tsunami."


"The metro isn't far. Maybe a few minute walk. The hearty aroma of Champon cuts through the steam as Iwai's noodle bar comes into view. He said once... this old music had something to do with poor miners slaving their lives away in the dark for the fat cats. Sounds like not much has changed. I should remember to tip."


"Next stop... City Center. This. Fucking. Place. Must be nice to live in a world where your biggest worry is what to wear for the papz. All us matchbox gomi are just jealous because they look GOOD on that red carpet, right? Not everyone can be a winner. This place was jussssssst SO much better before all the poor-people fakers showed up."


"The car's outside Rainbow Nights. Not far. A few K's. Now to just get past... Aw, shit. Impromptu fashion show outisde Grand Illusion. THE place for the jet set to see and BE seen. Crowds are gonna be a bitch. Gotta remember to get TBug to ghost me from all the camera footage."


"Should have thought this low profile thing through. Dressed for kicking teeth not blending in. Wouldn't be a big deal anywhere else but this is Rainbow Nights. I don't even wanna know what this shit is that they're listening to. Plan B it is. Slip the door man some Eddies and he'll point me to where the car is stashed."


"Hello beautiful. This car is immaculate. A real time capsule. What's that smell? A GAS engine? Never smelled GASOLINE before. A ride like that could buy you a private island somewhere... somewhere with animals that don't come with patents. At least I know what this Corpo's kink is now. Just cruise. Don't let them see you sweat. Soak in the night."


"Westbrook. That didn't take long. No traffic when you got a Platinum Pass. Mansion. Mansion. Mansio... THERE it is. Sounds like the Corpo owner is 'entertaining' a guest or three. Wouldn't want to dirty his hands grabbing the keys from me himself."


"Call the fixer and let him know it's done. Can't be this easy, right? He'll drop the Eddies in the usual spot. Right, Right. I got another call. It's Dexter. 'Lookin' good as usual, Miss V. You and Jackie bring your asses to AFTERLIFE. I got a job. Something... time sensitive."


"Rolling with Jackie. Word is somebody smuggled a new kind of CHOOH out of Biotechnica R&D last night. No idea how they got it out. Gonna call it CHOOH3. Now he's talking 'fine jainas' and 'culos' again. Once a Valentino, always a Valentino."


"AFTERLIFE. This place is all ashes and bloody kisses. Cosmetic Y-Incisions are SOOOOO 2075. Jackie says Dex wants to meet in the Crypt about some kinda big Corpo job. But the night is young and tomorrow is promised to no one. Drinks first."

 
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Now that I read your description of the feature I kind of thought that would be the case by the default in game like this.
 
Now that I read your description of the feature I kind of thought that would be the case by the default in game like this.

It may indeed be something similiar, but there are a few unknowns. CDPR has made comments that suggest they may not include licensed music (beyond promo use). IMHO, that would be a mistake.

My suggestion is two layers of licensed music in addition to their announced plans. My approach to how such tracks could be curated is the other topic of this thread.

If I had the kind of budget I think they're working with, another thing I would do is approach artists that are a 2077 culture fit and hire them to create all new music for use in the game (which is what I think CDPR did by hiring Mantia / Reese.)
 
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I like it when if the situation changes like you are in battle the music changes or maybe you're in different part of town so it sets the tone with background music but you should be able to listen music on your smartphone because it is 2077
 
I like it when if the situation changes like you are in battle the music changes or maybe you're in different part of town so it sets the tone with background music but you should be able to listen music on your smartphone because it is 2077

What I'm proposing is what you are asking for.

Let me ask you this Jarred: Do you want the music you select to be licensed? If so, what kind of music would you like to see in the game?
 
I would like a mixture of music made from CD project Red and license music like 21 pilots, Charlie puth, panic at the disco, backstreet boys.

A mixture of genres from alternative to pop to country music something for everyone because I like a mixture of music.
 
CLUBS (Style References):

Clubs are a cornerstone of Night City Culture. They reflect people in each district and would be mostly MID LAYER (licensed soundtrack music) in my proposal. Some will be mainstream poppy CORPOculture, others SUBculture and still others COUNTERculture. The world is big enough for all different kinds of music. It's the themes of Cyberpunk (not music genres) that matter most IMHO. The tracks could easily be changed if they are off target.

The goal is to give people *enough* of what they expect but still do something different. So for a club with a retro 80's music theme, avoid EVERY track being "kick snare kick snare repeat" synthwave while still using retro vox, vocoder and synths. All club music has a stomp but I'd mix it up. "BREAK THE RULES" -Ripperjack CDPR is breaking them. What I'm doing here is BENDING them.

TECH NOIR
(CORPOculture): Hypothetical Retro 80's inspired synthpop example.
https://soundcloud.com/battletapesband%2Fyou-dont-get-me-high-anymore-battle-tapes-remix
AFTERLIFE
(SUBculture): Bar / Club in an old mortuary where solos go to find jobs. Neo-Goth.
https://soundcloud.com/streetfever%2Fin-your-lungs-1
TOTENTANZ (COUNTERculture): Booster Club atop an abandoned skyscraper. High body count from "Death Dances".
https://soundcloud.com/baseck%2Fcre8-celebr8
 
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I would like a mixture of music made from CD project Red and license music like 21 pilots, Charlie puth, panic at the disco, backstreet boys.

A mixture of genres from alternative to pop to country music something for everyone because I like a mixture of music.

We dont even know if they modernized Cyberpunk, or do we? Its not first time Im getting impression from this forum that people expect this to be GTA-clone, but it isnt, its Cyberpunk. I dont know what the creator of Cyberpunk feels if we start to put Migos, Drake or Nicki Minaj or even Hasselhoff to his IP. Like stuff like Rap didnt even exist when this IP was built, well it surely wasnt mainstream yet, for example.

I would be personally more interested to know what the Cyberpunk was originally or did they give it a modern world spin, we will see I suppose.
 
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