[POLL] : Layered Music / Culture discussion

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DO YOU WANT A LAYERED MUSIC SYSTEM LIKE THIS?

  • YES

    Votes: 25 80.6%
  • NO

    Votes: 6 19.4%

  • Total voters
    31
I dont know what the creator of Cyberpunk feels if we start to put Migos, Drake or Nicki Minaj or even Hasselhoff to his IP.

I agree with you, that wouldn't be culture fit for the setting/themes/world. That said, every major city is extremenly diverse culturally and music is part of that. That's part of why my approach is to represent each district in different ways musically. The music tracks themselves can be easily swapped in and out if they are off target, so I wouldn't focus too heavily on them. What I'm trying to do here is illustrate possible use cases. If the community and CDPR think I'm stylistically on target with any of the music, that's a bonus.

Rap didnt even exist when this IP was built, well it surely wasnt mainstream yet, for example.

That's kind of the point. It *shouldn't* be mainstream. Rap/Hip Hop began as subculture music. Like all fresh and new things, it has been co-opted by corporations and sold back to the masses. So mainstream rap has lost it's original meaning as the voice of the street. I hope to get back to it respresenting resistance.

What I'm getting at is that in any dystopia some people go along with it. They drink the Kool-Aid. Cozy up to the oppressors. Sell out. IMHO those people need to be musically represented for contrast against those who scream "Fuck the system" and rebel. So when I think of music, part of that is asking "Are these people mainstream CORPOculture, SUBculture or COUNTERculture?"
 
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I hope they go for mainstream or they will put this IP in a risk, imo. Yeah, its tricky IP, hopefully they get it right and its going to be succesful, but definitely avoid too much "subculture/underground" thing. It needs to be mainstream enough while being shady underground IP, if you understand what I mean. It could be me though maybe Im overly cautious, but the fact is this kind of genre/games doesnt exactly fly in game industry.
 
I hope they go for mainstream or they will put this IP in a risk, imo. Yeah, its tricky IP, hopefully they get it right and its going to be succesful, but definitely avoid too much "subculture/underground" thing. It needs to be mainstream enough while being shady underground IP, if you understand what I mean. It could be me though maybe Im overly cautious, but the fact is this kind of genre/games doesnt exactly fly in game industry.

For their promo music, they're going to probably have to walk that fine line between mainstream appeal and Cyberpunk culture. In the game itself, they are in a safer position to take risks. People already bought the game at that point.

(In the game itself) I think you can cover that spectrum by using it as a mirror of our real world culture. In real life, there are mainstream normies, subcultures and counter-culture agitators. The same is true in Night City. What that can bring to the game is diversity.
 
For their promo music, they're going to probably have to walk that fine line between mainstream appeal and Cyberpunk culture. In the game itself, they are in a safer position to take risks. People already bought the game at that point.

(In the game itself) I think you can cover that spectrum by using it as a mirror of our real world culture. In real life, there are mainstream normies, subcultures and counter-culture agitators. The same is true in Night City. What that can bring to the game is diversity.

Just out of curiosity, how you can say this is in "safer position to take risks" From my perspective, games like Matrix Online gamers didnt even knew it existed because it was so under the radar, Deus Ex? At one point it was abandoned IP but luckily it was resurrected. Prey? Yet again cancelled but continued later and sold just enough to get noticed. SOO, seems to be game industry doesnt like us much. I know Prey isnt exactly best comparison to Cyberpunk but, its darkish at least. Btw, Diablo series is quite good example of Darkish series too, we were so lucky we got Diablo 3, because the series was almost forgotten.

I dont want to be doom bringer here, I really believe CD Projekt Red can do this, but man they gotta push this to mainstream whatever it takes. When I said put some hot chicks there in order to get move deal I wasnt bullshitting. If Cyberpunk's girls are ugly, theres no way we can ever get movie deal.

Hire that C-Bool dude to make a track to get some mainstream attention etc.
 
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Just out of curiosity, how you can say this is in "safer position to take risks"

I think we're talking about two different uses of music. If I'm understanding you, what you're talking about is content used for PROMOTION. The things you mention are strategies used to appeal to the mass market consumer. I'm not in marketing, so I'd leave those decisions to people who have more experience in that area.

The other use of music (and the focus of my proposal) is the content that you hear IN the game. By that point, the consumer has already decided to buy the game. So IMHO the in-game music has a different role to play in the product. That role is to immerse the player in the world, lore, and vision of those making the game.

And I fully expect that my vision will be off target from CDPR's since I have almost zero information to go on. If I knew more, I could adjust that vision to align more closely with theirs. But the specific music isn't even really important to this thread. What I'm proposing here is just one possible means of achieving a goal (expanded immersion via cultural diversity).
 
Im talking about both, promoting and in-game music, they gotta be mainstream, because this IP is hard already.
 
Story Team Writer Stanisław Święcicki Official PlayStation Magazine (August 2018, issue 151):

"We’re marrying “Cyber” with “Punk” – these are our two main pillars for music direction."

“Cyber” centers around sonic texture of the score – our sound palette is raw, dirty, synthesized, sometimes even futuristic." (I interpret this as being the dynamic score being crafted by Marcin Przybylowicz. I expect it to be something entirely new and would be the BASE LAYER in my proposal.)

“Punk” is all about the attitude of music – rebellious, ballsy and impulsive." (This is where I see a combination of all new "White Noise" music / Mantia/Reese / and licensed music that captures the themes of Cyberpunk mentioned by Stanislaw. The MID and TOP layers in my proposal)

"Night City shimmers with colors and so is the music – we’re not limiting ourselves to one specific genre. Instead, we’re drawing from all sorts of styles to craft a unique mix that drives the narrative and provides additional layers of context to the story." (I interpret this to mean that themes, context, and culture should be prioritized before any specific genre of music. So any curation I'm doing is CULTURE based rather than GENRE based.)

Regarding SYNTHWAVE:

"While many at CD Projekt Red love synthwave, it has become too mainstream to strictly label it with Cyberpunk as a genre." -CDPR Community Manager


Cyberpunk is not called "Cyber-Normie". Rebellion is the entire point. Fighting back not to save the world, but to save yourself. Struggle even when you're destined to fail. Doomed love. It's not about noble sacrifice. Mike Pondsmith would never allow 2077 to be a game about virtuous heroes fighting to save the world. If players want that, there are a million other games on the market to choose from.

I break all music into 1 of 3 types regardless of genre:

  • Mainstream CORPOculture: This is the music listened to by those that embrace the culture the Corpos are selling. Celebrates vanity, consumerism, aspirational wealth. It should exist in the world for contrast, but be subtly mocked/satirized rather than celebrated (unless the tone set by CDPR differs).
  • SUBculture: This is the music listened to by people who exist below the shiny outer surface. They see life in Night City for what it truly is. Celebrates hedonism, nihilism, apathy.
  • COUNTERculture: This is the music listened to by people who want to destroy the dystopian systems of power. Celebrates Rebellion/Revolution, Iconoclasm, and rage.
Cyberpunk is the antidote to mainstream game fatigue.

Johnny and Ripperjack should be our guides here:

1. Style over substance.
2. Attitude is everything (Themes before genres. "The street finds it's own uses for things.")
3. ALWAYS TAKE IT TO THE EDGE (Do something unexpected. Don't be afraid to resist using a bunch of Synthwave)
4. Break the rules (I take this to mean "it's okay to have mainstream pop music" but don't make it the focus. Mix up the music. New, old, original and licensed)
 
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I hear what you're saying. But I think going full mainstream for the in-game music would run counter to the central theme of Cyberpunk itself. It's not called "Cyber-Normie". Rebellion is the entire point. Fighting back not to save the world, but to save yourself. Struggle even when you're destined to fail. Doomed love. It's not about noble sacrifice.

Cyberpunk is the antidote to mainstream game fatigue. Mike Pondsmith would never allow 2077 to be a game about mainstream heroes fighting to save the world. If gamers want that, there are a million games on the market to choose from.

That's why I always feel a tugging desire to satirize any mainstream pop music in Cyberpunk. It should exist in the world (for contrast), but be subtly mocked rather than celebrated.

Johnny and Ripperjack should be our guides here:

1. Style over substance.
2. Attitude is everything (Themes before genres. "The street finds it's own uses for things.").
3. ALWAYS TAKE IT TO THE EDGE (Not the mainstream. Do something unexpected.)
4. Break the rules (I take this to mean "it's okay to have mainstream pop music" but don't make it the focus. Mix up the music. New, old, original and licensed)

You dont need Cyberpunk to be antidote to gaming fatigue, if this is story driven game like Mass Effect it does the trick already. Story Driven games ala Mass Effects arent that common. Shooters, open world, mobas etc and now survival online genre are starting to fill that spot and I think shooters are kinda fading away atm. I bet majority of gamers are at open world, survival and mobas.
 
You dont need Cyberpunk to be antidote to gaming fatigue, if this is story driven game like Mass Effect it does the trick already. Story Driven games ala Mass Effects arent that common. Shooters, open world, mobas etc and now survival online genre are starting to fill that spot and I think shooters are kinda fading away atm. I bet majority of gamers are at open world, survival and mobas.

What I mean by that is that gamers are more vocal about wanting something different. They're rebelling against the "Games as a service" model. They're rebelling against rushed games. They're rebelling against the narrative that "quality single player games will die in favor of mass market multiplayer shooters". Look at the success of Sony first party studios for evidence of that, despite an opposing model from EA and Activision.

Even when compared to MASS EFFECT, 2077 is an entirely different approach to a single player, narrative-driven, RPG. Especially thematically. "Courageous hero saves the universe from Eeeeeeeeeeeeevil" (MASS EFFECT) is about as basic as themes get.

Gamers are tired of the same old tropes. The same gameplay. The business as usual. They want something DISRUPTIVE and I think CDPR knows that. Nearly every decision they've made runs counter to trends gamers are rebelling against. It shows that they have forethought and the courage to commit to a risky way of doing things. That alone shows that they *get* it.

Let's look at Cyberpunk like a Sci-Fi Action film. EA is a Michael Bay movie. I'm not saying that 2077 should be "Tetsuo the Iron Man". Even Blade Runner was a commercial failure in it's day. But 2077 shouldn't just go for the low hanging fruit. Not thematically. Not from a gameplay perspective. Not visually. Not musically.

It's important for any product to stand out. Doing what everybody else is doing isn't the way to stand out. Is innovation risky? Yes. But that's Cyberpunk. You either lead or you follow. CDPR has chosen to lead.
 
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An example of how CULTURE TYPE can be as/more important than genre. (See #27 if you don't know what I'm talking about.)

Let's say you've got 2 bars / clubs where Techies hang out in Night City. You can differentiate their feel by CULTURE. Maybe one is SUBculture (themes: Nihilism, Hedonism, Apathy) and the other is COUNTERculture (themes: Rebellion, Iconoclasm, Rage) Even with similar genres of music, they will have a very different feel. The style references here are interchangeable so don't fixate on them. They just illustrate the idea.

SUBCULTURE Bar:

https://soundcloud.com/healthnoise%2Ffeel-nothing-1
COUNTERCULTURE Bar:

https://soundcloud.com/reinelectronic%2Fborn-to-die
 
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I'm of the opinion that many games these days don't get "enough" development.
So many of them seem like the jokes in the film industry when all the Jaws and Rocky sequels started coming out.
Thankfully, some folks, in some studios saw the wisdom in not taking all the up to Jaws 25 with just another cookie cutter shark movie for the sake of sales.
Unfortunately, that didn't carry over into every genre or film franchise and lawd knows how many Friday the 13th films there are, but, for whatever reason, there's still a market for them. Some genres or fan-bases are just like that, I suppose.

I guess what I'm saying is, we're seeing this in the game industry where something with a name that was successful gets sequel after sequel pushed out with a "good enough" stamp of approval, and while it might generate some sales, and have a few wows since our technological sophistication is still in its infancy and brute force processing advances can make a difference in just 4 or 5 years, these games, once they're played, and once the shine and sparkle have worn seem just mediocre.

That's how I felt about AC: Odyssey, ME: Andromeda. The space just for the sake of space was amazing at first, but, even though it wasn't procedurally generated, it lacked heart and felt a little like it was.
Well known franchises seem to be more in the market for a money grab without the heart and soul put into the titles that launched the franchise from the beginning.
Don't even get me started with Bethesda.

I'm only speaking to single player games. There's a number of reasons I avoid online games, so, I'm going to try avoiding any talk about those.

... but, this thread is about MUSIC.
Yes. All my preceding babble leads up to that, but, also includes every other element of the game.
I've a lot of hope and anticipation for this game, and I fear that i might be putting too much anticipation into it, because, realistically, no product ever lives up to expectations.

Anyway, yes, my point regarding all this, and about music is that CDPR should certainly invest some time into making the music of CP 2077 more than "good enough". It shouldn't just be there for the sake of being there, but, should have some varied distinctions as outlined in the OP.
There should, too, also be more than just one or two radio stations, or radio station equivalents, and more than regional appetites and styles for certain flavors of music. A teenager might be obsessed with only one style of music or even just one singular artist, but, the whole world isn't teenagers. Give us variety. Give us CP 2077s version of Swiched-on-Bach Brandenburg Concertos in some corner of the world, even if it's just some corpo elevator music. Give us a taste of some familiar that ties us back to the real world, but, not too familiar because this is the future, and a future in a different universe with slightly different rules, slightly different historical events, and corporations run like fiefdoms and self sovereign governments their own.

Cater to those details, in the music, and every other aspect, and don't rush this title out the door no matter how much noise we make about it.
... and, TLDR version: Don't feck this up by rushing or "good enoughing" anything. :p
 
Anyway, yes, my point regarding all this, and about music is that CDPR should certainly invest some time into making the music of CP 2077 more than "good enough". It shouldn't just be there for the sake of being there, but, should have some varied distinctions as outlined in the OP.
There should, too, also be more than just one or two radio stations, or radio station equivalents, and more than regional appetites and styles for certain flavors of music. A teenager might be obsessed with only one style of music or even just one singular artist, but, the whole world isn't teenagers. Give us variety.

^ This part, especially.

As it's impossible to please everyone -- options! I think that one of the big challenges with adding so much music is obviously the size and space required on people's drives. Sound files, especially quality ones, can start really adding up.

To that end, why not make a variety of musical libraries available as DLC?

Download a certain "album", and players will have those tracks mixed into the world: playing in shops, on the street, over the radio, etc. In such a coroprate-driven world, it makes sense that the variety of music would be insane. (And it can get a lot of artists noticed in the process. :))
 
WHAT DO WE KNOW?
  • CDPR is creating music internally for 2077. Probably a "Score" (thematic music without lyrics).
  • CDPR is creating all new "Soundtrack" music for SAMURAI (popular music with lyrics).
  • CDPR is creating other music too. (unconfirmed speculation)

I seem to recall a number of independent producers have been aproched by CDPR to work on the music in the game which has been called "a new genre of music" by one or the other. It might just be that the licensed music is also specifically made for this title. It would seem they are quite invested in this particular aspect and while i agree with your take on the subject, i think whether or not, and how much, they include existing music, ties in to how they want to present their world and make it.. relatable in that particular way, to ours.. Not sure if i'm making myself understood but i'll leave it at that.

P.S. Cool thread you have going here!
 
...Like stuff like Rap didnt even exist when this IP was built, well it surely wasnt mainstream yet, for example...
I don't want to be a pedant, but Rap started to kick off in the 1970's, by the early-to--mid 80's it was getting pretty wide spread. His first version of Cyberpunk released in 1988, by that point rap had gone mainstream enough to have an MTV show dedicated to it. Sure it wasn't as ubiquitous as it is now, but at the time it was more of a generally known thing than the internet.
Aside from that, we do know they are "modernizing" it to some degree, as they have said this won't be a direct translation of 2020 but instead be their own vision of the world (formed with Mike Pondsmith's input).
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^ This part, especially.

As it's impossible to please everyone -- options! I think that one of the big challenges with adding so much music is obviously the size and space required on people's drives. Sound files, especially quality ones, can start really adding up.

To that end, why not make a variety of musical libraries available as DLC?

Download a certain "album", and players will have those tracks mixed into the world: playing in shops, on the street, over the radio, etc. In such a coroprate-driven world, it makes sense that the variety of music would be insane. (And it can get a lot of artists noticed in the process. :))
I'm all for both the options and the DLC idea for growing the game. I know CDPR is a fan of free DLC when they can swing it which I'd gladly take, but I also know that even if you are making music in house it is something that doesn't really come cheap. I'd gladly pay for a new bundle of music/atmosphere (probably wouldn't buy individual tracks though), especially if that encourages a wider variety of artists (even if it custom created music different artists are going to be bringing different stuff to the table).
 
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I don't want to be a pedant, but Rap started to kick off in the 1970's, by the early-to--mid 80's it was getting pretty wide spread. His first version of Cyberpunk released in 1988, by that point rap had gone mainstream enough to have an MTV show dedicated to it. Sure it wasn't as ubiquitous as it is now, but at the time it was more of a generally known thing than the internet.
Aside from that, we do know they are "modernizing" it to some degree, as they have said this won't be a direct translation of 2020 but instead be their own vision of the world (formed with Mike Pondsmith's input).

Nice, so its confirmed they will modernize the IP as this go? If thats the case hit the mainstream music hard. We cant let this IP slip into the "underground" side. This genre needs a push more than anything.

Damn, I kinda hoped they would have stayed on the original vision of the IP.
 
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As it's impossible to please everyone -- options!

That's EXACTLY what I'm after with this method: A way to suppliment what CDPR is already confirmed to be doing. I've tried to parse all the info from their public comments and use that to develop a framework to work from (#27).

To that end, why not make a variety of musical libraries available as DLC?

I'd leave those kinds of decisions to CDPR since that's way beyond my pay grade. I think anything like that would have to be free content though.

players will have those tracks mixed into the world: playing in shops, on the street, over the radio, etc.

Absolutely. Those are the proposed use cases for the MID and TOP layers in my proposal. It's likely that CDPR already has a more elegant solution. As far as I can tell, no one from CDPR is even looking at the updates to this thread. If they DO already have a similar feature, they may think there is nothing new to see here.

But I can at least hope that they'd look at what I'm suggesting regarding how licensed music could suppliment their confirmed plans (Culture, context, themes, use cases, style references).

I seem to recall a number of independent producers have been aproched by CDPR to work on the music in the game which has been called "a new genre of music" by one or the other.

Yessir. That is the work being overseen by Mantia/Reese as far as we know (#27). What I'm doing with this thread is proposing a way to suppliment that work with licensed music to expand upon scope and cultural diversity.

i think whether or not, and how much, they include existing music, ties in to how they want to present their world and make it..

Totally. And that's the unknown. All of this work I'm doing is a longshot at best. But it's a longshot with a solid methodology behind it. I'm not a designer but I was a Producer for a number of years and a 2020 player starting in 1990. I can only hope to present my case to the community and that CDPR listens if there is sufficient interest.

P.S. Cool thread you have going here!

THANKS! Any and all support is appreciated. If you agree with my approach, please consider spreading the word anywhere and everywhere.

I don't want to be a pedant, but Rap started to kick off in the 1970's, by the early-to--mid 80's it was getting pretty wide spread. His first version of Cyberpunk released in 1988, by that point rap had gone mainstream enough to have an MTV show dedicated to it. Sure it wasn't as ubiquitous as it is now, but at the time it was more of a generally known thing than the internet.
Aside from that, we do know they are "modernizing" it to some degree, as they have said this won't be a direct translation of 2020 but instead be their own vision of the world (formed with Mike Pondsmith's input).

^ I couldn't agree more. This is why my focus here is on a 3-tiered CULTURE based approach (CORPOculture, SUBculture, COUNTERculture) rather than a specific GENRE based approach. A Rivet-Head and an MC can be promoting the same message in different ways. Check out #30 for an example.

I also know that even if you are making music in house it is something that doesn't really come cheap. I'd gladly pay for a new bundle of music/atmosphere (probably wouldn't buy individual tracks though), especially if that encourages a wider variety of artists (even if it custom created music different artists are going to be bringing different stuff to the table).

Licensed music can vary drastically in cost (working to curate music with a licensing agent was one of my job responsibilities). I'm pursuing less well known music for 2077 for a few reasons. The first is cost. Sometimes a mutually beneficial agreement can be worked out where no money changes hands. It's a win-win. So you can stretch your budget. But another reason is baggage. Using film as an analogy, there is a risk of that fame overcoming the character. I want people to think "That's Johnny Silverhand" instead of "That's Johnny Depp." Fame brings baggage. What I'm after is the FEEL minus the baggage. Does that make sense?

Sorry for the wall of text, guys. I know most will TL : DR it, but it's nice to have the chance to explain my rationale.
 
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Funny thing that music is expensive to make, Ive gotten the impression for example if you are professional house producer you can make a track in 5 hour and its really top of the market stuff. Its the Artist what cost money and thats due to time, they simply dont have time to sit because they gotta drive to another place or sit at airport or jets all day long or doing PR for magazines etc. Music Videos.

All what CD Project Red needs to do is to hire some professional who can produce mainstream stuff weekly multiple tracks if thats what they wanna do.
 
All what CD Project Red needs to do is to hire some professional who can produce mainstream stuff weekly multiple tracks if thats what they wanna do.

That would be one approach. When you mentioned mainstream music before, it seemed to be in a promotional sense which is a bit different than what I'm talking about in this thread. (Two separate topics)

We cant let this IP slip into the "underground" side. This genre needs a push more than anything.

On promotion, I wouldn't begin to try to tell marketing and PR people how to proceed. And I'm not presuming that my suggestion to CDPR is the ideal path forward. It's merely a proposal for how licensed music *could* be used to compliment what they are already doing.

Damn, I kinda hoped they would have stayed on the original vision of the IP.

CDPR has stated in the gameplay demo video that 2077 is "inspired" by 2020. So it isn't a literal translation from PnP to a video game.
 
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Promotional or non-promotional I just think whats best for the series. Game industry is alot more ruthless what it was 10+ year ago, old school devs had years of time to build their series and take their time. Btw, Billboard 200 is pretty good spot to know whats hot and whats not atm, as far I know it tracks global sales or something like that.
 
There are a few reasons why I personally wouldn't pursue Billboard music (touched on in #36). From a Game Production standpoint, you're going to blow your budget fast. So it's a "bang for the buck" argument. Would you rather get 10 songs or 100+ songs?

Another reason is that Billboard music is focused on what is hot with the mainstream corporate listeners at that time. While you can often go after music that hasn't been released yet, there is still a lead time. But riskier still is that chasing trends can set the game into a specific era musically. This is kind of "EA syndrome". Their focus for licensed music is usually on "what's hot now".

But the biggest reason I wouldn't go that way is because it mostly doesn't represent the CULTURE of Cyberpunk. The exeption to that would be music you'd *expect* to hear in parts of Night City where people celebrate the Corpo lifestyle. City Center, Westbrook, Heywood (if it ends up being suburbs instead of barrios), etc. But you don't need to pay top dollar chasing names to get that (since all those names will likely have faded into obscurity by 2077.)
 
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