[ Poll ] [Some story/gigs spoilers] Level design and replayability

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1. Was this intentional by CDPR or more my own interpretation of it? 2. Do you think it works?


  • Total voters
    20
Ok so I thought a lot about this specially when beggining a new playthrough (after the first full one) which is when I decide beforehand some of the decisions this new character will make (side with voodoo boys or netwatch, do this mission or not...)
So to explain a bit more in depth this reasoning and the questions I ask you as a poll:
On my first playthrough I did most missions and gigs. Really only left out one or 2. And when I created my second character I thought of Cyberpunk's replayability value anf part of its RPG mechanics to be very linked to these story fragments and decisions to play this content or not for that character, also the time in which to play certain content. Basically it made me, as I played and before I had done that mission before and knew where it lead to question for example: would this street punk that defended Peralez and rooted for him do that gig where he destroys anti-Holt propaganda? Etc...

So I'd like to think about this approach to RPGing,
1. do you think this is intentional by CDPR or more my own interpretation of it?
By this I don't mean that this is the only RPG aspect to the game, but I'd like know if you agree this was an aspect the designers envisioned players using as a mechanic.
2. Do you think it works?
Personnaly I enjoy playing CP77 like this a lot.
But being this such a big game and since if this is a feature on the game's mechanics it's one that isn't explained in it it's incredibly difficult to master this knowledge to remember all these story fragments... for example I've only done 2 full playthroughs but I've played a lot of Watson still sometimes I don't remember which mission starts at that point in the map (in Watson).
So maybe something in the UI/hints of the game, even marketing before launch could have brought player's attention to this.
Another argument that we can bring here is that CDPR explained the team that created the open world was an external one to the company. And with rushed launch I doubt this cooperation was sucessfull enough for this feature to be intentionaland successful to its fullest.
So I ask 2 questions in this poll and you can select 2 answers. If you answer no in the first than the second you don't have to answer I guess!? XD
 
1 - Yes, I think it's totally intentional by CDPR.
2 - Yes, it work. But don't doing quests as a choice could sound weird for many, I suppose. But for me, it's work well.
 
1 - Yes it was probably intentionaly.
2 - I dont like it, Alot of the quests are kinda story sensetive (romances/friends) Gigs are one thing to have as RP. "side" quests on the other hand i dont really like making them the only way of roleplay. Would rather have more branching in the quests instead.
 
1 - Yes it was probably intentionaly.
2 - I dont like it, Alot of the quests are kinda story sensetive (romances/friends) Gigs are one thing to have as RP. "side" quests on the other hand i dont really like making them the only way of roleplay. Would rather have more branching in the quests instead.
2 - yes me too. And to me more branching options would only add positively to this concept
 
2 - yes me too. And to me more branching options would only add positively to this concept
I didn't said "it better like that", only I'm fine with that.
Because even with more branchings, generally/always, I end always with the same things (like Royce/Brick/Meredith/Anthony). I haven't change my "choice" in any playthrough since day one. The same about Panam/Saul, about Maiko/Clouds.
 
I would not consider gigs(most of them) as RP opportunities except those were you can take a decision :

BD father/son producers, cop woman,blackmail cop,corpo woman she killed somebody,few others

Deciding to do or not something,when there is nothing blocking you to do that or not (no character investment) doesn't seem as RP opportunity since there is level design redundancy (i.e there is no gig you cannot solve being a brawler but you can solve being a sniper,as far as i know).

I'm playing a game that actually do that,not all "single shot" quests are available to my character if i want to see them i need a different build since quest givers refuse to give them to me(you are unqualified);also some solutions are not achievable for my character in some side-quests.

What I do think in cp2077, is that it was not intended to reach point of no-return with all gigs done so you can add replayability (except if you are a completionist player of course).
 
I'm playing a game that actually do that,not all "single shot" quests are available to my character if i want to see them i need a different build since quest givers refuse to give them to me(you are unqualified);also some solutions are not achievable for my character in some side-quests.
I think it's intentional by CDPR to let any build, any character a possibility to complete all the GiGs/Quest. Mostly, the only thing who change, it's the way to complete them.
- With the Aldecaldos (Carol/Cassidy/Bobby) where with enough body skill, you can avoid to fight the Scavs.
- In the mini "hold up" in the restaurant, where with enough body skill you can "intimidate" the 3 robbers.
- When 3 cops beat a corpo dude. With skills/lifepath you can know the truth and maybe earn some "extra" eddies.
- With Nix, with INT skill, you can finish to hack the Bartmoss console and have extra reward.
But yeah, quests and final result are generally the same.
 
I think it's intentional by CDPR to let any build, any character a possibility to complete all the GiGs/Quest. Mostly, the only thing who change, it's the way to complete them.
- With the Aldecaldos (Carol/Cassidy/Bobby) where with enough body skill, you can avoid to fight the Scavs.
- In the mini "hold up" in the restaurant, where with enough body skill you can "intimidate" the 3 robbers.
- When 3 cops beat a corpo dude. With skills/lifepath you can know the truth and maybe earn some "extra" eddies.
- With Nix, with INT skill, you can finish to hack the Bartmoss console and have extra reward.
But yeah, quests and final result are generally the same.
I forgot those few cases thanks!,but yeah the outcome is the same except in the 1st and 2nd cases i would say.
I agree that the effort in replayability is in level design, so you can replay with a different build.
 
I agree that the effort in replayability is in level design, so you can replay with a different build.
That's totally my point of view, and probably I'm a "completionist" like you said, but I find the Cyberpunk way, to be "the good way" to do it :)

For take a very basic example :
- I play a game as a magician, I see quests that I can't complete/do because you have to be a warrior. It's suck... but ok.
- I replay the game as warrior, and sadly, I see quests that I can't complete/do because I have to be magician. It's also suck...
So yes, it add replayability, bla, bla, bla... but my general impression remains "it's suck..." :D
 
Yes and yes. I think its very intentional to let you pick up any gig you want and run through it in whatever way you like. Its well done, completionists can play all gigs while those who prefer more immersed or roleplayed experience can decide not to do certain gigs if they feel those dont suit their character or do a gig and make a choice that doesnt harm the immersion with said character. Its one of the things they did well, imho.

Its one of the criticisms that Skyrim gets; you can hack&slash through the mage college questline and become head of said college without being a mage, with knowledge of just a few basic spells. But I think they wanted people to just be able to play all quests and end up being the hero, that game being a power fantasy after all.
In CP2077 you take on many gigs and have some influence on the city, but its very limited.
 
I agree mostly although some missions in CP77 without different endings provide some RolePlaying for me in terms of when i do them. To go after Jotaro as a low level or an established merc, regardless of the implications with Woodman, it provides a different story in my view, not just different game mechanics while doing the mission
 
I agree mostly although some missions in CP77 without different endings provide some RolePlaying for me in terms of when i do them. To go after Jotaro as a low level or an established merc, regardless of the implications with Woodman, it provides a different story in my view, not just different game mechanics while doing the mission
I see what you mean, but is not just because you already did that once(or twice or...)?
For me that is side effect of non-linear game design(although with a mostly linear story).
 
I see what you mean, but is not just because you already did that once(or twice or...)?
For me that is side effect of non-linear game design(although with a mostly linear story).
Yes it works better the more times you do it in a way, or the most you know all the content available in the game, these story fragments as I call them. And this is my biggest criticism on this aspect of the game. It's like it can't be played "as intended" the first time around
 
Yes it works better the more times you do it in a way, or the most you know all the content available in the game, these story fragments as I call them. And this is my biggest criticism on this aspect of the game. It's like it can't be played "as intended" the first time around
Not sure on this one, I cannot really say there is a correct way of playing (well you need to reach Hanako).
In "World of Horror" for example (if you can go with retro graphics and sounds, I like it a lot... no save game right now, but a "run" lasts between 5 an 40 minutes) by design you need to do multiple runs, try different actions,try stuff in different order,try different pieces of equipment,die in different ways to unlock its content.
But in CP2077, I think that the point of view (at least how I took it) is that you are not somebody who must know "all", is why there is stuff that feels "cut":
Like Gig with Padre where you found Arasaka is planning a false flag with Valentinos to blame Militech or that you don´t know who is behind Peralez brainwash.
But this is intentional to me, the world doesn´t gravitate around V (although your actions can make an impact to the world).
Similarly, all Gigs (and many NCPD stuff) have pieces of information associated that in many cases are interconnected:
You can find evidence of a human traficking ring which involves Scavs,Shivs and the Tiger Claws.
But its difficult to say-and I might have some bias of perception, no doubt-, for me it made sense but I was kind of expecting that kind of protagonist in a cyberpunk story.
 
Not sure on this one, I cannot really say there is a correct way of playing (well you need to reach Hanako).
In "World of Horror" for example (if you can go with retro graphics and sounds, I like it a lot... no save game right now, but a "run" lasts between 5 an 40 minutes) by design you need to do multiple runs, try different actions,try stuff in different order,try different pieces of equipment,die in different ways to unlock its content.
But in CP2077, I think that the point of view (at least how I took it) is that you are not somebody who must know "all", is why there is stuff that feels "cut":
Like Gig with Padre where you found Arasaka is planning a false flag with Valentinos to blame Militech or that you don´t know who is behind Peralez brainwash.
But this is intentional to me, the world doesn´t gravitate around V (although your actions can make an impact to the world).
Similarly, all Gigs (and many NCPD stuff) have pieces of information associated that in many cases are interconnected:
You can find evidence of a human traficking ring which involves Scavs,Shivs and the Tiger Claws.
But its difficult to say-and I might have some bias of perception, no doubt-, for me it made sense but I was kind of expecting that kind of protagonist in a cyberpunk story.
Yes completely agree. Sorry I didn't mean to say there is a correct way to play but I kinda did. What I meant to say is if this is a feature the designers antecipated players would do or at least the players interested on multiple playthroughs (use the freedom of doing content or not, in which order,... as a means to create individual Vs with individual stories - separate from any of the decisions players effectivelly make on the endings and other branching moments), then it becomes a feature more refined on players that know the content. Which I don't know if it's a good thing XD
Anyway if this was a feature they expected players to use as part of the create your individual V I wish this mechaniv was discussed on marketing before the game launch. A presentation of the game like "the stories are all there, the freedom is yours but you can chose your playground and how to approach your destiny" kind of thing.
At least for me, I remember on my first playthrough I was suspitious of every character. Will I side with Evelyn and betray Dex? All with the side characters too. Now we know we can help the side characters and have their content or not. So it was on the beggining of my second playthrough that I really realized that wasn't the case, the branching didn't happen as I expected so what I felt was the developers and the game left the door open to play with what I mentioned (play content or not, timeline,...) and have been using this possibility ever since.
Other times I go to my end-game save and explore the city on different ways XD
 
Yes completely agree. Sorry I didn't mean to say there is a correct way to play but I kinda did. What I meant to say is if this is a feature the designers antecipated players would do or at least the players interested on multiple playthroughs (use the freedom of doing content or not, in which order,... as a means to create individual Vs with individual stories - separate from any of the decisions players effectivelly make on the endings and other branching moments), then it becomes a feature more refined on players that know the content. Which I don't know if it's a good thing XD
Anyway if this was a feature they expected players to use as part of the create your individual V I wish this mechaniv was discussed on marketing before the game launch. A presentation of the game like "the stories are all there, the freedom is yours but you can chose your playground and how to approach your destiny" kind of thing.
At least for me, I remember on my first playthrough I was suspitious of every character. Will I side with Evelyn and betray Dex? All with the side characters too. Now we know we can help the side characters and have their content or not. So it was on the beggining of my second playthrough that I really realized that wasn't the case, the branching didn't happen as I expected so what I felt was the developers and the game left the door open to play with what I mentioned (play content or not, timeline,...) and have been using this possibility ever since.
Other times I go to my end-game save and explore the city on different ways XD
No worries,I didn't take as "i think you are not rpguing-is that a verb?-",same from my side I didn't took your approach and I see what you mean... the order (timeline) I'm not sure, but overall the design remembers me a lot "Vampire Bloodlines"... was not open-world,but you can also decide which stuff to do an the order outside the main quest, at the end you also take a decision(in a cab,not a rooftop) and in some cases a 2nd decision is presented; there are some endings that were not available depending on what you did or not with NPCs and the story itself is linear with only branching at the end.
Would be interesting to hear other people thougths and if they also played Bloodlines(not about quality of game/story) they feel game design is similar.
 
No worries,I didn't take as "i think you are not rpguing-is that a verb?-",same from my side I didn't took your approach and I see what you mean... the order (timeline) I'm not sure, but overall the design remembers me a lot "Vampire Bloodlines"... was not open-world,but you can also decide which stuff to do an the order outside the main quest, at the end you also take a decision(in a cab,not a rooftop) and in some cases a 2nd decision is presented; there are some endings that were not available depending on what you did or not with NPCs and the story itself is linear with only branching at the end.
Would be interesting to hear other people thougths and if they also played Bloodlines(not about quality of game/story) they feel game design is similar.
Man I took a break of like a decade from being a gamer and Vampire: bloodlines came about at that time. Now I read and saw a lot of it and wish i had played it.
And please people would also love to hear people's thoughts on this. It was the reason to create this thread
 
Man I took a break of like a decade from being a gamer and Vampire: bloodlines came about at that time. Now I read and saw a lot of it and wish i had played it.
And please people would also love to hear people's thoughts on this. It was the reason to create this thread
Bump with the hope more people participate, + minor commercial about why you should and should not (same time) play Bloodlines even today:

With Bloodlines, there is a kind of aura,misticism,nostalgia and I don´t even know a "I've played it and you don´t" elitism.
At release,was a buggy mess (worse than CP, on release I was not able to go past the 1st hub I think).
Today if you are in PC, have 20 bucks (or wait for a sale) and you don´t have a backlog of games the GOG version comes with the "unnoficial patch" -version 10.8 I think, because they keep fixing/breaking/going back- that makes it playable from start to end except: some crashes, glitches or some save data corruption (I think on my run with 10.2 patch). You will see also its age: the engine is from 2000's, there is some high-res textures mods I think but the engine is the engine..., also is mute protagonist. Also even if its hub based, you will have plenty of load screens when moving inside/outside buildings (and better pay attention, since there are pieces of lore in text on those loading screens)
You can check some reviews about combat, both melee and guns might not feel that great for action RPGs standards (specially gunplay I think) even when it was released.

What people praise more is : use of social skills for intimidation,persuasion,seduction... dialogs in general (Malkavian clan in particular) ,the difference of playing one clan or other,storywriting, the NPCs you find...

What most people forget: combat (I already mentioned, but worth repeating) is somewhat clunky, towards 1/2 or 2/3 of the game you will find some long linear dungeons-not in dungeons, but kind of Konpeki long combat levels with not much freedom- which contrast a lot with the previous half of the game, 1 puzzle that many people use a no-clip cheat out of frustration (it took me like ten attempts to solve, but not because it was not clear what to do just due to timings), an unwinnable fight (can be survived or won, but solving a puzzle or running) and 1 or 2 end boss fights that if you look even some game journalists admitted that they used god mode to win-because they are difficult and because some builds might have a difficult time winning them.

Is a game that I like and even today I think is worth playing, but even in a complete bug free state it has annoying stuff that not everybody might like.
 
I played Bloodlines alot, still do. Its kinda similar in the way it tells the story. I loved the nods too the story with the Malkavians and so on. But its not an openworld game so i really cant judge it compared too Cp2077. Storywise its not really that great, especially nowdays. When it came out its was pretty cool tho. Sadly the game hade major issues since it was hugely rushed. I dident mind tho since i find the world and lore facinating.

Its the same with Cp2077 tbh, i love the lore and world but when i play it just feels like theres so much potential thats not beeing used. When VTM:B came out i feelt pretty satisfied with the game tho, im not getting that feeling from cp2077. Could be me that has changed or could be i expect more from my games today, not really sure.
 
Bump with the hope more people participate, + minor commercial about why you should and should not (same time) play Bloodlines even today:

With Bloodlines, there is a kind of aura,misticism,nostalgia and I don´t even know a "I've played it and you don´t" elitism.
At release,was a buggy mess (worse than CP, on release I was not able to go past the 1st hub I think).
Today if you are in PC, have 20 bucks (or wait for a sale) and you don´t have a backlog of games the GOG version comes with the "unnoficial patch" -version 10.8 I think, because they keep fixing/breaking/going back- that makes it playable from start to end except: some crashes, glitches or some save data corruption (I think on my run with 10.2 patch). You will see also its age: the engine is from 2000's, there is some high-res textures mods I think but the engine is the engine..., also is mute protagonist. Also even if its hub based, you will have plenty of load screens when moving inside/outside buildings (and better pay attention, since there are pieces of lore in text on those loading screens)
You can check some reviews about combat, both melee and guns might not feel that great for action RPGs standards (specially gunplay I think) even when it was released.

What people praise more is : use of social skills for intimidation,persuasion,seduction... dialogs in general (Malkavian clan in particular) ,the difference of playing one clan or other,storywriting, the NPCs you find...

What most people forget: combat (I already mentioned, but worth repeating) is somewhat clunky, towards 1/2 or 2/3 of the game you will find some long linear dungeons-not in dungeons, but kind of Konpeki long combat levels with not much freedom- which contrast a lot with the previous half of the game, 1 puzzle that many people use a no-clip cheat out of frustration (it took me like ten attempts to solve, but not because it was not clear what to do just due to timings), an unwinnable fight (can be survived or won, but solving a puzzle or running) and 1 or 2 end boss fights that if you look even some game journalists admitted that they used god mode to win-because they are difficult and because some builds might have a difficult time winning them.

Is a game that I like and even today I think is worth playing, but even in a complete bug free state it has annoying stuff that not everybody might like.
Yes I think I would enjoy it still today but only have a ps4 pro at the moment
 
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