Potential Player: Just hoping for AI improvements

[MartialDoctor]

Despite all the let downs that I've heard about this game, I'm still patiently waiting for the one thing that will really get me to buy it: AI improvements.

I've read too much about how bad the AI is (and I've watched gameplay as well). Without at least a reasonable AI, no game will ever really be good. A game that is a walk in the park is still not a good game, even if the story, characters and / or environment are all well designed.

I'm just throwing that out there in the hope that the devs will, hopefully, make some AI improvements in the next big patch to make this game a worthwhile buy.

Signed,
An eager, patient, and hopeful fan

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Yep, if you speak for cars and civilians, I hope so
But interesting thing, during the 1.23 download (30 go on XBSX on poor net connection), I have restarted a run on Borderlands 3.

And I found the enemies to be even dumber than in Cyberpunk...
They stay in cover in one place waiting for me to shoot them when they show their heads.
Or, for the melee guys, they just run towards me in Kamikaz mode. Without counting the "big guys" which simply turn in circles while shooting on me.
Yes, they don't trip over a body on the ground, but the bodies despawn after a few seconds...

So for me, on the enemies side, Cyberpunk isn't doing that badly (it could be better, as always). Especially compared to a game where gunfights are the "heart" of the gameplay. (Yes, Maybe BD3 also have bad AI, but hey...)

 

[redsuns]

Borderlands 3 didnt make bold claims and advertise missing features to overhype the game.

 

[maniak6767]

Borderlands 3 didnt make bold claims and advertise missing features to overhype the game.

And Borderlands 3 enemy AI is worse, and it's shooter. Not bashing Borderlands, just some people have unrealistic expectation. Nobody was marketing game with: groundbreaking enemy AI. Watch 2018 demo.
Things like this are only on consumer. Even in 2018 demo there was bug with multiple NPCs looking same. Use eyes before buying games, not your imagination.

 

[Spectral_Warrior]

Borderlands 3 didnt make bold claims and advertise missing features to overhype the game.

Not the point.
The TO is waiting for AI to arrive at a level he/she expects, or is otherwise accepting.

@LeKill3rFou made a comparison between his experience of CP77 and BL3.
It helps more than your post about who advertised what and where and wether or not it was delivered. There's other topics for that.

@MartialDoctor
The best I can do is, if you can somehow get your hands on a demo or borrowable game (what platform btw) and try a few hours for yourself to see if you can accept or not.

Because I fear that watching YT, reading these forums can make the view about the game be a bit skewed in either direction.

Additionally. To sum ip some things:
- The driving and traffic AI is below GTA and Watchdogs level.
Controls are way more extreme and traffic sometimes acts likenit shuts down (system reset?)
- Enemy AI is I think better than GTA. They take cover behind all sorts of scenery and fire from a covered position, not like GTA where they first step out 1 meter away from cover. Enemies in CP also use grenades and quickhacksnon your character besides their main armament. Lastly they are a bit less agressive in that they dont rush your down even though they have ranged weapons. Melee enemies however can rush you down.

The Enemy AI behaviors are however based on my experience while playing.

 

[MartialDoctor]

The best I can do is, if you can somehow get your hands on a demo or borrowable game (what platform btw) and try a few hours for yourself to see if you can accept or not.

Because I fear that watching YT, reading these forums can make the view about the game be a bit skewed in either direction.

Additionally. To sum ip some things:
- The driving and traffic AI is below GTA and Watchdogs level.
Controls are way more extreme and traffic sometimes acts likenit shuts down (system reset?)
- Enemy AI is I think better than GTA. They take cover behind all sorts of scenery and fire from a covered position, not like GTA where they first step out 1 meter away from cover. Enemies in CP also use grenades and quickhacksnon your character besides their main armament. Lastly they are a bit less agressive in that they dont rush your down even though they have ranged weapons. Melee enemies however can rush you down.

The Enemy AI behaviors are however based on my experience while playing.

@WingedArchon
Ok, thank you for your detailed response. I haven't played GTA, Watchdogs, or any of these games. They don't interest me. Typically, if I play a shooter / action game, it's for online play. So, I play games like Chivalry 2 and I played a lot of Planetside 2, although that was a time ago. The only single player action game that I've played recently was Vampyr and, at the hard difficulty level, it was challenging.

So, let me ask you this then. Do you find the game to be challenging? I want something that I'm going to have trouble with... not a game that is easy to blow through. The main reason that I didn't purchase The Witcher 3 was because I heard from so many people that it had a great story and characters but it was too easy. If for most people, it's easy, than for me, it would be very easy. I only like games that challenge me.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

So, let me ask you this then. Do you find the game to be challenging? I want something that I'm going to have trouble with... not a game that is easy to blow through. The main reason that I didn't purchase The Witcher 3 was because I heard from so many people that it had a great story and characters but it was too easy. If for most people, it's easy, than for me, it would be very easy. I only like games that challenge me.

It depends how you actually play and I speak only for hardest difficulty indeed.
If you grind for best stuff, best cyberware, best mods,... Yes, It could be relatively easy.
But if you don't focus on best stuff (like only wearing looted "one mod slot" clothes and don't use any armadillo), it could be pretty challenging
Little challenge :
-Only wearing the start's clothes (Nomad/Street Kid or Corpo) during the whole game.
-Only use food as medicine.
-No Reload at all and if you die, it's end (delete the save).

 

[sL3nd3rmAnn]

Despite all the let downs that I've heard about this game, I'm still patiently waiting for the one thing that will really get me to buy it: AI improvements.

I've read too much about how bad the AI is (and I've watched gameplay as well). Without at least a reasonable AI, no game will ever really be good. A game that is a walk in the park is still not a good game, even if the story, characters and / or environment are all well designed.

I'm just throwing that out there in the hope that the devs will, hopefully, make some AI improvements in the next big patch to make this game a worthwhile buy.

Signed,
An eager, patient, and hopeful fan

Seeing how underwhelming the patch 1.23 was after two months seeing an improvement in the AI department in the future seems far fetched.
At this rate Half Life 3 and Gothic 4 seem more likely.

 

[MartialDoctor]

It depends how you actually play and I speak only for hardest difficulty indeed.
If you grind for best stuff, best cyberware, best mods,... Yes, It could be relatively easy.
But if you don't focus on best stuff (like only wearing looted "one mod slot" clothes and don't use any armadillo), it could be pretty challenging
Little challenge :
-Only wearing the start's clothes (Nomad/Street Kid or Corpo) during the whole game.
-Only use food as medicine.
-No Reload at all and if you die, it's end (delete the save).

When you say such things, it just reinforces the idea that the game is far too easy. If it's even possible to beat the game using the starter equipment, or by not reloading at all, and on hardest difficulty no less, then that just speaks of how easy it is.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

When you say such things, it just reinforces the idea that the game is far too easy. If it's even possible to beat the game using the starter equipment, or by not reloading at all, and on hardest difficulty no less, then that just speaks of how easy it is.

As you wish,
If you want it to be "necessarily" extremely difficult, it's not a game for you that's clear.
You have to choose how you want to play. It's not because an overpowered weapon is in the game that you must to use it... the same for everything else
But If you manage to finish the game with the "challenge" that I proposed in very hard, frankly "total respect" (without dying...). I bow, I manage to die stupidly by taking cover next to a gas canister or something explosive without being careful...

 

[MrGuyton]

@WingedArchon
Ok, thank you for your detailed response. I haven't played GTA, Watchdogs, or any of these games. They don't interest me. Typically, if I play a shooter / action game, it's for online play. So, I play games like Chivalry 2 and I played a lot of Planetside 2, although that was a time ago. The only single player action game that I've played recently was Vampyr and, at the hard difficulty level, it was challenging.

So, let me ask you this then. Do you find the game to be challenging? I want something that I'm going to have trouble with... not a game that is easy to blow through. The main reason that I didn't purchase The Witcher 3 was because I heard from so many people that it had a great story and characters but it was too easy. If for most people, it's easy, than for me, it would be very easy. I only like games that challenge me.

All of the side quests and gigs have a relative danger level assigned to them depending on your current level (easy - moderate - high). If you go and try a hard mission before your character and equipment are leveled then you will definitely find it challenging. Plus in some missions there are snipers who will one or two shot kill you.

More generally though, if you level your equipment, assign perks to your favourite weapons and use med kits then the game isn't actually super hard. IMHO.

Using stealth and staying in stealth and only using non lethal takedowns IS tough to achieve.

Edit - this isn't because of the combat AI being poor though, more due to V becoming quite powerful relative to the enemies. Hard mode needs to be a bit more of a challenge.

 

[Spectral_Warrior]

@WingedArchon
Ok, thank you for your detailed response. I haven't played GTA, Watchdogs, or any of these games. They don't interest me. Typically, if I play a shooter / action game, it's for online play. So, I play games like Chivalry 2 and I played a lot of Planetside 2, although that was a time ago. The only single player action game that I've played recently was Vampyr and, at the hard difficulty level, it was challenging.

So, let me ask you this then. Do you find the game to be challenging? I want something that I'm going to have trouble with... not a game that is easy to blow through. The main reason that I didn't purchase The Witcher 3 was because I heard from so many people that it had a great story and characters but it was too easy. If for most people, it's easy, than for me, it would be very easy. I only like games that challenge me.

Well, I'm currently playing the game on normal difficulty because I prefer it less stressful after a days work. but the game can still throw you for a loop every now and then.
I've heard that the harder difficulties are more challenging and that you need to be aware of your 'build' However V's gear and weapons can also become very powerful as well. If it would be sufficiently challenging for you I dont know.

As @MrGuyton said: the various areas are leveled compared to you so when you journey into an area where map markers show "Very Hard" or "Hard" expect that those enemies will be tough to take down.

 

[ya1]

I'm not an AI specialist but I just finished a playthrough on very hard with a semi-naked character (no attributes, no perks, no cybernetics), and this is what I think of the game's AI.

It's not the worst AI in games. Worse or better are subjective terms. Nor is it the most simplistic. It might even be more complex than in games such as Doom Eternal or Borderlands, I don't know. But it is most certainly THE MOST DYSFUNCTIONAL AI ever in AAA games of this caliber. By dysfunctional I mean incapable to fulfil the functions it was made for.

Let's take Pac-Man as an example. Of course CP has more complex AI than Pac-Man. But AI in Pac-Man is more functional. The function of AI in Pac-Man is to navigate the maze to catch you, and alternatively to run away from you. It fulfils this function perfectly. In CP, in turn, one of the functions of AI is to control traffic. But cars cannot go around obstacles! They cannot possibly fulfil this function just because of that. What's more, they cannot navigate or traverse the environment to go from A to B because they are on invisible "rails," and their only choice is to stop or go. Cars can only go from A to B (like Dex's car or the van in Peralez quest) when their whole itinerary is scripted. Such AI is dysfunctional as traffic AI in a open world city game. It especially shows in the "race" side-quest which is a total fail. Cars spawn behind your back every two seconds! They simply can't drive. AI that can't drive can never be functional as traffic AI.

Also, the function of enemy AI is to provide combat experience in an urban environment. But enemies often find themselves unable to cross the street! They can hardly traverse the battlefield to flank you. Most of the time they just stay passive in their little areas and do nothing or shoot. They do not react to grenades or weapons that nullify cover, just stay where they are and wait to die. What's more, they do not react to what you do beyond acknowledging your location. They behave exactly the same whether you shoot or run away. This is how I managed to clear the game without a single point spent - when they actually happen to breach your perimeter (very rarely happens) you just turn back and run for the next cover mashing the heal button, and this gets you out of 99% situations. More often then not, you'll be safe there because enemies won't be able to go there.

And this is based on a naked character experience where they actually have health pools and you somewhat have to plan your approach, can't just steamroll everything. When you progress with your character, even in a very suboptimal way, you will find gameplay to be godmode-y about 1/3 down the progression curve, and you'll one-shoot everything soon after.

So, op, if you're looking for any kind of challenging gameplay, no, this is not a game for you. Nor will it ever be, I fear.

 

[northwold]

Borderlands 3 didnt make bold claims and advertise missing features to overhype the game.

Oh God enough. Please. Everyone knows. It's been said a thousand times. Could people stop these rants that make no point of substance it's exhausting.

 

[MartialDoctor]

Also, the function of enemy AI is to provide combat experience in an urban environment. But enemies often find themselves unable to cross the street! They can hardly traverse the battlefield to flank you. Most of the time they just stay passive in their little areas and do nothing or shoot. They do not react to grenades or weapons that nullify cover, just stay where they are and wait to die. What's more, they do not react to what you do beyond acknowledging your location. They behave exactly the same whether you shoot or run away. This is how I managed to clear the game without a single point spent - when they actually happen to breach your perimeter (very rarely happens) you just turn back and run for the next cover mashing the heal button, and this gets you out of 99% situations. More often then not, you'll be safe there because enemies won't be able to go there.

And this is based on a naked character experience where they actually have health pools and you somewhat have to plan your approach, can't just steamroll everything. When you progress with your character, even in a very suboptimal way, you will find gameplay to be godmode-y about 1/3 down the progression curve, and you'll one-shoot everything soon after.

So, op, if you're looking for any kind of challenging gameplay, no, this is not a game for you. Nor will it ever be, I fear.

Yeah, you are saying what I have read and seen of the game thus far. The AI doesn't really do anything. An AI that just "shoots or does nothing" until you kill him does not bode well for any sort of a challenge.

And thank you to the others as well for clarifying the difficulty level and the scaling. It's still hard for me to justify a buy though when I read comments such as the above.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Yep, if you want buy a game mainly for the gunfights and hard challenge, could be better to not buy Cyberpunk (RPG/Action/Adventure narrative)

 

[Delilah_]

yep, totally not the game for you, it's not meant to be a very challenging game after all, Doom and such on nightmare difficulty is prob what you're looking for!

 

[MartialDoctor]

Yep, if you want buy a game mainly for the gunfights and hard challenge, could be better to not buy Cyberpunk (RPG/Action/Adventure narrative)

Oh, I buy a game like this mostly for the story and narrative. However, if it's just a walk in the park, what's the point? I could just go read a book or watch a movie.

Games of not so long ago had both good story and were a challenge. Old Bioware games (Mass Effect, Jade Empire, Knights of the Old Republic, Neverwinter Nights, Baldur's Gate) were challenging, on the highest difficulty level, and had great stories. They sucked you in with the story and atmosphere and kept you challenged as well.

I have little interest in pure shoot em ups.

 

[Delilah_]

Oh, I buy a game like this mostly for the story and narrative. However, if it's just a walk in the park, what's the point? I could just go read a book or watch a movie.

Games of not so long ago had both good story and were a challenge. Old Bioware games (Mass Effect, Jade Empire, Knights of the Old Republic, Neverwinter Nights, Baldur's Gate) were challenging, on the highest difficulty level, and had great stories. They sucked you in with the story and atmosphere and kept you challenged as well.

I have little interest in pure shoot em ups.

it's not a walk in a park, this is not Life is Strange or a walking simulator, but you seem to like something that's very difficult, it simply isn't very difficult, there's a challenge though.

 

[Rodocastiza]

For me Combat AI is quite good. Enemies take cover, heal themselves, move, throw grenades... the only thing I miss is netrunners being as dangerous as V can be, obviously they can't use the suicide hack (or maybe yes!) but it could be a bit better.

Non-combat AI is another thing.