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Principals, Expectations & Exclusives

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J

Juuuhan

Rookie
#1
Aug 17, 2014
Principals, Expectations & Exclusives

Backlash have occurred in the reveal that Xbox one will feature exclusive physical content that ultimately lead to a response from Marcin Iwiński. I will address his response briefly further on but for now let's look on why this is such a big deal to consumers and what it means for CD RED.

Why the freak out and principals.

First and foremost, it's a misinterpretation that jealousy is the reason for people's uproar. While this could certainly be what you would expect, the problem lies deeper than that (especially since we don't know if the people who express concern have actually bought the CE or not). After all as Marcin Iwiński stated, there weren't any backlash from having exclusive pre-order deals. So why do people freak out? It's a mixture of principals with CD RED reputation (which I address later).

This isn't the standard edition but the CE one, meaning that the consumer group is much smaller and also more economy minded. If you spend around 150 € on physical content rather than just the game there have to be an incentive to do so (the medallion, the art book or what have you), and no one knew about Gwent the card game until recently. Therefore the people who pre-ordered the CE are still there. What they do feel is cheated. Cheated that now (not from the start) there's a CE that includes more content than what they'll get. This cheapens out the appeal for them to get a CE for PC or PS4, especially when all other content are the same.

In a bizarre way having otherwise almost identical CE could (potentially) be a mistake if there's a small variation in one/all of them, instead of having different CE for all three platforms that offer content that you could “argue” are equal in value. At the moment the problem is that you can objectively state which CE that have the most “bang for the buck”, if this were harder to interpret due to subjective taste of what you get it wouldn't stick out as much as an eye sore for the other consumer groups.


CD RED being the lone pillar

The real reason though why people are concerned by this is CD RED position as being one of the few “true” game developer remaining, especially when it comes to RPG. Bioware burned a lot of their bridges with Mass Effect 3 and Dragon Age 2 and Bethesda while never really produced anything that you could label as “bad” we've also haven't seen any sorts of risks from them, but rather produce more games similar to their predecessor.

Combine that will all the showelware we see from game series like Fifa & Madden (Who makes even the Call of duty and the Sims franchise look acceptable in comparison) as well as the focus on CD RED of them being open and fair to consumers and we as the consumer can't really find anyone (at least not that have grown as much as CD RED as a company) who's close to compare. We know CD RED are gamers at heart, and how the market have changed from the early 90's (and previously) this is a welcoming change... And a dangerous one, but I'll get to that in a second.


Money, money, money

While Marcin Iwiński stated it was funny that no one reacted on pre-order exclusives the answer to this is really obvious.

1. Amazon is not Microsoft. The reason Amazon can get away with this is because Amazon's focus, isn't solely on gaming and/or tech. They are a distributor which won't have any (at least not even close to Microsoft) effect on the Gaming market. The market that we care for. The market that effects us. If Amazon makes money then that's fine but if Microsoft makes money it's always bad (at least in the eye of the gamer, not a realistic one, but there it is).
2. I already stated this earlier, but the timing is just so damn off. Revealing exclusives when Square Enix have recently been under fire from the same company that CD RED have given exclusives to, just spells for disaster.

Now this is obviously the outcome of Microsoft being in a “tight spot” when it comes to Xbox one sales, so this timing (combined with the fact that they revealed the card game as well as goodies related to the card game) isn't really anything you can do about from a developer's point of view, but it is a explanation on why people care more for this than pre-order deals by Amazon.

Now you would assume that as long it doesn't effect the game everything is fine right?However here comes the problem with being the lone pillar. We know you got paid from Microsoft and while you can't really state this it rubs fans the wrong way especially because we expect you to be 100% open and fair to us. Who knows in a Universe close to our own, a developer could say that “Yes we got paid to add exclusives and we will use this money to improve our existing and forthcoming games even more” and it would be considered completely fine... Unfortunately we, the gamer aren't there yet due to all the tat that was the “Money grubbing” period.


It's a bad time to be a developer if you are a gamer at heart

Because of all the bullshit consumer have seen previously, it's extremely tricky for a developer to act more “open” and “honest”. CD RED in general does this and it have given them great PR value. Unfortunately this also means that we focus too much expecting CD RED to be perfect in every single way that we forget that they are a business company.

They (and every other developer) need to make a living in order to continue producing high quality content and some of these decisions leads to compromises. Some of them could even be rather shitty ones (Welcome to the world mate!), however what's ultimately important is that you treat consumers right when it comes to the actual game, the one thing that really matters.


Tl;dr
Having one CE that objectively provides more value than the others rubs people the wrong way... It's not which stuff do I like more in this Edition but simply this Edition have more stuff. Many people view CD RED as the only decent developer remaining which results in unrealistic expectations. People dislike Microsoft because of their role/involvement on the Gaming market, therefore Pre-orders from Amazon (or your equivalent other) are fine/better. CD RED are a company. They need to make money and in order to not jeopardize the actual game, they (like everyone else) sometimes have to do less enjoyable things.
 
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G

goopit

Forum veteran
#2
Aug 17, 2014
here's where I draw the line.

CDPR is a game developer not collectible card or cloth map.

If they compromise the GAME that's where I draw the line an start making noise.

Also I feel sorry for our console brothers and sister they don't have discounts in GoG and Steam and improved graphics so for me they deserve a few cards.
 
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V

val.mitev

Senior user
#3
Aug 17, 2014
People are overreacting, as usual.

This is not CDPR giving something more to a part of the audience, this is Microsoft providing additional value to those getting the CE for their platform.
If you want to complain, then take it to Sony to pay for the stuff.

Just so you know, I've preordered the PC CE, and I don't feel cheated or whatever because of this. I also own a XBO, but I'm still getting the PC version'.
 
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R

Rahx.482

Rookie
#4
Aug 17, 2014
Just this once, a double post... :)
So, to start off: My appologies for earlier posts. I was venting some steam and kinda throwing gas on a fire.
Now I've cooled of, I want to show what the reason for the outrage was.

The reason for the outrage is because in this instance, it is (or seems) that CDPR are the ones adding things to the CE. When places like amazon and other retailers do it, it IS different. Why, because that's what they do from time to time. And as far as I know noone from the devs have posted about a 'Bolstering of the Amazon' retail verson. When a devs says they are adding something to a specific console, it screams sellout in the ears of customers.
CDPR was praised many times over for their opionion on threating all platforms the same. Amazon also does this, but they differentiate with retailers. The rage comes from CDPR being the advertizer, being microsoft's window that makes gamers think the MS and CDPR are best buddies so go there for more stuff. That's the rage. If MS had done this on their own and advertize it, the backlash would be much smaller (if none at all). It's CDPR praising their 'Bolstered' XBONE edition.
 
T

thislsmadness

Rookie
#5
Aug 17, 2014
I think its perfectly ok to be disappointed and to let CDPR know that you don't like it. Where I think it gets ridiculous is when people start to draw comparisons to EA and panic over some crazy slippery slope future where Cyberpunk is exclusive to Xbox.

I look at these companies in terms of a scale -- on one side are the positives and on the other side is the negatives. Companies like EA and Activision have been piling bricks and anvils on that negative side for decades and contributing very little positive. For others like Valve and CDPR the positive far out weighs the negative. This exclusive CE is a negative, but its a feather compared with the boulders of proconsumer decisions that have been made for Witcher 3.

In an industry where games are short as ever, full of DLC/Microtransactions in full priced games, actual ingame content is being sold to the highest bidder, and they don't even put a manual in the box anymore! Meanwhile, CDPR is giving us a game twice as big as their last one, free DLC, a 20% discount if you've supported them in the past, and a glut of other gifts stuffed in the box no matter which edition you buy -- show me another AAA company that is doing even half as much as CDPR is; heck, its more than we got with the Witcher 1 and 2!

TLDR: Accusing them of being sellouts is fuckin absurd.
 
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H

hardom

Rookie
#6
Aug 17, 2014
Also I want to say a thing:

"CdRed got the toughest conditions to make a famous game, it's called 2015 or also known gamers year. They leaved the flower camp of 2014, in a month where they were alone, no triple AAA games, thus, the sales will grow, also, there's nothing glorifying as the GOTY. And they were so near this in 2014, after the failure of watch dogs, the mediocre dark souls, the contesters were dragon age, that being part of the sphere of influence of EA, would fail; an AC that promise revolution, but that will fail in others aspects as usually; remaining alive far cry 4 as the only challenge, one challenge, and done, 20 differents GOTY, personally, 2014 wasn't a good year to play games.
But then they delayed to 2015, oh, what a hard life they'll get. Everybody will contest a space on the ambitious prize:The order 1886, Rise of the tomb raider,Halo 5, Uncharted 4, star wars battlefront, No man's sky and batman: arkham knight;The japanese will try to win again with Bloodborne and metal gear solid V. There will be also others big titles that won't get the prize, however: Mortal Kombat X, Dead island 2, evolve and dying light. Only on february, there will be 3 games that will drain the witcher sales:Evolve, the order 1886 and dying light"
 
Gilrond-i-Virdan

Gilrond-i-Virdan

Forum veteran
#7
Aug 17, 2014
For me, excluding platforms is a much worse scenario than having exclusive physical offers in collector's editions. I.e. why should I care about physical editions on Xbox having some extra toys, if no edition is available for my operating system whatsoever?
 
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Aryvandaar

Aryvandaar

Senior user
#8
Aug 17, 2014
Gilrond said:
For me, excluding platforms is a much worse scenario than having exclusive physical offers in collector's editions. I.e. why should I care about physical editions on Xbox having some extra toys, if no edition is available for my operating system whatsoever?
Click to expand...
Yes. Still waiting for the official word if there will be a native Linux version or not. The biggest obstacle is if they have to modify their engine, but writing the code isn't that complicated for it to support Linux, Mac OS and Windows. Just take a look at the source code that was released for Penumbra. Looks really simple to me.

https://github.com/FrictionalGames/PenumbraOverture
 
Gilrond-i-Virdan

Gilrond-i-Virdan

Forum veteran
#9
Aug 17, 2014
Aryvandaar said:
Yes. Still waiting for the official word if there will be a native Linux version or not.
Click to expand...
The last official word (if you missed that) was "we don't know". Please continue there if you want to discuss this particular topic further.
 
Last edited: Aug 17, 2014
Aryvandaar

Aryvandaar

Senior user
#10
Aug 17, 2014
guipit said:
Also I feel sorry for our console brothers and sister they don't have discounts in GoG and Steam and improved graphics so for me they deserve a few cards.
Click to expand...
I don't think the deserve any preferential treatment, be it in game bonuses or collector items. They got a cheap system, which is the reason that it can't have the same performance as a PC, a gaming PC that people have spent a lot of money on, so I don't feel sorry for them because PC players get cheaper versions through GOG.
 
G

GuyNwah

Ex-moderator
#11
Aug 17, 2014
The preferential treatment isn't for console users, and it isn't any kind of detriment to PC users. The preferential treatment is for a marketing partner, Microsoft. It doesn't take anything but public knowledge and knowing how the retail software market works to understand that this arrangement is just for the purpose of making buying the game on Xbone more attractive.

The business of producing, publishing, distributing, and selling games is not just between CDPR and the gamers, and the illusion that CDPR has any kind of duty exclusively to the gamer community is just that, an illusion. There are many other parties who have legitimate interests in the game enjoying the greatest possible sucess. These include Microsoft, Sony, Valve, Warner, Namco Bandai, GameStop, and many others.

It is not in the interest of us as gamers to believe we can demand CDPR tie themselves down to only the arrangements that some gamers think entitle them to things that were never promised. They can, must, do, and will continue to, make the arrangements that benefit both their partners and their customers. If you insist too strongly, to the point of persuading others to boycott the games, you will not end up getting the best deal you consider fair, you will end up with no game at all.
 
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A

Aegis_Kleais

Rookie
#12
Aug 17, 2014
The power is in the hand of the consumer. It always has been. I had a (tangentially related) saying that I used in these situations...

(In the US) "You are entitled to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness., not a free copy of Photoshop"

I used the above against the many people who felt somehow that if Adobe priced PS outside their comfort zone, it somehow authorized them to acquire it via alternate methods (to which I will not go into). This act is in and of itself, one of entitlement. Whether we agree with the actions a developer does (lop-sided CE deal with Microsoft) or the price a developer sets on their software, we, as a consumer, always have the same choice we've always had. Either you accept things as they are and buy, or you don't and do not.

Ignore those who say "Oh, it's just the loss of 1 person's sale, like that matters." These people make myopic observations. You are but 1 consumer, your potential as such ranges from buying the product because you are amicable to the situation, or not, because, well, whatever reason you justify. Too many people here will talk a good talk, but the act of delayed gratification is usually too overwhelming for them. I would not be surprised if well over 80% of those who stated they won't buy the game based on this action will end up doing so nonetheless. These are the people for which whom you should have no respect; their words are hollow and do not have worth to them.

There WILL be those who are true to their words and they will abstain from supporting the developer over this; that is their right as a consumer to do so, and they do so out of their own principle, to which they should not be judged by others for.

Me? I hate Microsoft for doing this, and I'm not fond of the CDPR reps who OK'd the deal. But there's too many good people working at CDPR on this title, made evident by how magnificent the game is looking; and CDPR's relationship with the PC community in the past has been so stellar that I personally cannot be so petty as to hold anything against them. If you feel likewise, cool; if not, more power to ya. This really just comes down to your own opinion and how valuable your word is that you can stick to it.
 
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Gilrond-i-Virdan

Gilrond-i-Virdan

Forum veteran
#13
Aug 17, 2014
Those who want less influence of MS and the like - don't buy retail versions, instead support GOG distribution. With stronger shift to digitial distribution there would be less influence of physical retailers / publishers and CDPR will have less need to agree to their demands if they go against CDPR way of treating users. If you buy retail versions, you give more strength to middleman retailers who can then impose their own restrictions on CDPR, so there is little point to complain.

TL ; DR - if you want a better situation, vote with your wallet first and use GOG.
 
Last edited: Aug 17, 2014
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M

mavowar

Senior user
#14
Aug 18, 2014
Guy N'wah said:
The preferential treatment isn't for console users, and it isn't any kind of detriment to PC users. The preferential treatment is for a marketing partner, Microsoft. It doesn't take anything but public knowledge and knowing how the retail software market works to understand that this arrangement is just for the purpose of making buying the game on Xbone more attractive.

The business of producing, publishing, distributing, and selling games is not just between CDPR and the gamers, and the illusion that CDPR has any kind of duty exclusively to the gamer community is just that, an illusion. There are many other parties who have legitimate interests in the game enjoying the greatest possible sucess. These include Microsoft, Sony, Valve, Warner, Namco Bandai, GameStop, and many others.

It is not in the interest of us as gamers to believe we can demand CDPR tie themselves down to only the arrangements that some gamers think entitle them to things that were never promised. They can, must, do, and will continue to, make the arrangements that benefit both their partners and their customers. If you insist too strongly, to the point of persuading others to boycott the games, you will not end up getting the best deal you consider fair, you will end up with no game at all.
Click to expand...
I say this with all the sincerity in the world......................

When I grow up I want to be just as wise/smart and Honorable as you Sir Guy N'wah
 
S

shawn_kh

Rookie
#15
Aug 18, 2014
CDPR promised to deliver the same gaming experience across all platforms without discrimination, and they have kept their word.
A piece of cloth which is a collectible does not affect the gaming experience what so ever, but extra game contents such as DLCs and extra armors and swords would. CDPR is not releasing any platform exclusive DLCs and/or in game content, so I don't get why some of our friends are really angry and disappointed.
Plus if you really want to have the extra collectibles you could probably find them online on websites such as Ebay and Craigslist, but you wouldn't be able to buy platform exclusive in-game content if you do not own the console.
 
E

EliHarel

Rookie
#16
Aug 18, 2014
I am surprised and disturbed by how flimsy the feelings of many players are, and how little it took to turn some from avid fans to cynical, vitriolic criticizers. Not of this single act, but of CDPR as a whole, from here and henceforth. It's a shame that moderate voices which raised valid points were drowned by the cries of people who started condemning CDPR as a company that lost all its values, and other extremes of the sort.

I assume it has to do with the delusional Messianic qualities some gamers began to attribute with the Reds, combined with a refusal to understand what the business is like, not even a little bit, as Guy nicely described. Many posts dealt in more absolutes than a Sith empire. One tiny controversial deal was enough to eclipse all the huge pro-consumer actions CDPR took in its history, and apparently foresee their bleak future - without ever supplying an explanation of how Y will necessarily be caused from X, as Jupiter on Mars frequently requested doomsayers to do. People were looking for something ultimate in CDPR.

I was unprepared for how they were hoping for something more than a Game developer in CDPR. That's what they still come down to, for me, and the products I'm after are their games, not the extras. Which, if we're in the context of future predictions, this deal may even have a lot of merit for the vast majority of gamers who don't care about the extras. Since it possibly means more funds for the Reds to invest in their next game (before you raise the point, again, of this potentially influencing their games next, then please refer to the Slipper Slope fallacy as Juptier often directed to, and understand that you need to provide a clear and definite explanation of how one action in one category necessarily leads to a different action in a different category). This, I guess, comes from the same narrow-sight that stubbornly ignores the industry's restrictions, and wishes for CDPR to create AAA titles in their own little bubble that is unaffected by economical interests. Like Santa's elves, just crafting dolls and wrapping up gifts all day every day without a care in the world. This "broader view" will be labeled, though, as being a CDPR Apologist, or being a blind consumer, or being the perfect victim of the capitalist system, and what have you.

Then there were some claims from those who purchased the other Collector Editions, of feeling cheated, of receiving a substandard package now that XBox has those additions. That in and of itself is interesting in seeing how negative people can be when someone besides them gets a gift, rather than them having something taken away from them.

This whole incident is a disheartening study in psychology, and the gamer community. I feel bad for the Devs who spend so much energy in the game, who spent two years on the Collector's Edition, to receive such a backlash from so called fans over something so minuscule and have it blown way out of proportion. Very few complaints here managed to remain humble; most of them insisted on being way too extravagant and expressed a zealotry that almost felt religious at some stage.

I hope that the Reds won't be too discouraged by these reactions. Moreover, and while I don't have statistics to back this up, I hope they feel, as I do, that the vast majority of gamers worldwide don't care about this and instead are looking forward to their game alone. Not anything else.

P.S.
Animations need a bit of refining.
 
Last edited: Aug 18, 2014
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H

Hrachya

Forum regular
#17
Aug 18, 2014
You people seem to be missing the point. CE is made for both the game and the physical content. Even if they added a piece of paper with the word banana to the Xbox CE, it would be important, because said paper is a collectible, something only available through the CE and is the entire point of CE. People feel cheated because they wanted the full experience of having a Collector's edition, which includes every single collectible.

To shawn_kh, they aren't adding the cloth map and cards to the XBox's regular retail version, they are adding it to the COLLECTOR'S EDITION, the entire point of it are the physical items which greatly affect the experience.
 
V

val.mitev

Senior user
#18
Aug 18, 2014
Hrachya said:
You people seem to be missing the point. CE is made for both the game and the physical content. Even if they added a piece of paper with the word banana to the Xbox CE, it would be important, because said paper is a collectible, something only available through the CE and is the entire point of CE. People feel cheated because they wanted the full experience of having a Collector's edition, which includes every single collectible.

To shawn_kh, they aren't adding the cloth map and cards to the XBox's regular retail version, they are adding it to the COLLECTOR'S EDITION, the entire point of it are the physical items which greatly affect the experience.
Click to expand...
No, we are not, others have already explained in great details how things are, no point for me to repeat them.
You are entitled to your opinion, but I believe you are in the minority.
It's just sad, but things like this just show how skin deep is the support of some "fans" for CDPR and the franchise.
 
Vincentdante

Vincentdante

Forum veteran
#19
Aug 18, 2014
The REAL backlash is that the treatment is being given to the Xbone, if it was the PS4 the backlash would be significantly less and the PC less still. It's just one big blob of hypocrisy.
 
didymos1120

didymos1120

Rookie
#20
Aug 18, 2014
vincentdante said:
The REAL backlash is that the treatment is being given to the Xbone, if it was the PS4 the backlash would be significantly less and the PC less still. It's just one big blob of hypocrisy.
Click to expand...
And that's just one big assertion without evidence. Stop trying to mind-read.
 
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