Proof that Nilfgaard (NG) is NOT overpowered

[Philido]

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I don't know if "touched" means that his condition will be changed or he will simply be sexually abused. Memories of Sihil

Spoiler: Meanwhile...

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I guess it wouldn't be wrong to give NG some less miserable way to play, promoting a theme "just annoys other people" is ridiculous, and I'm not talking about playing control, because NG is not even control, it's just a desperate attempt to annoy the opponent. There is more control in ST than in NG.

Vincent can get killed if other cards are buffed, he's been some hot garbage for me anyway lately. And ST (especially elves) are pretty damn good against NG, ngl

 

[tompudd]

good, proved, nothing to see here. don't nerf it, move along. better yet, please add better cards next time, stuff like stealing enemiyunits, more of those please and better assimilations stuff.

 

[Philido]

good, proved, nothing to see here. don't nerf it, move along. better yet, please add better cards next time, stuff like stealing enemiyunits, more of those please and better assimilations stuff.

Glad so many consent to this

 

[ya1_]

I don't know if "touched" means that his condition will be changed or he will simply be sexually abused.

Touched by divinity.

 

[lor1keet]

Here's some more data to show that NG is dead last among the 6 factions.

Meta snapshot December #10

Gwent esport team

www.teamelderblood.com

The information is in the win-ratio section.

 

[Celadyl]

Here's some more data to show that NG is dead last among the 6 factions.

Meta snapshot December #10

Gwent esport team

www.teamelderblood.com

The information is in the win-ratio section.

no, it's not and the information isnt reflecting that either. if you look at individual win-ratio NG is the 2nd best (might argue 3rd after MO).

 

[Philido]

no, it's not and the information isnt reflecting that either. if you look at individual win-ratio NG is the 2nd best (might argue 3rd after MO).

What do you mean with individual win ratio?

 

[Six-Sided-Prism]

Here's some more data to show that NG is dead last among the 6 factions.

Meta snapshot December #10

Gwent esport team

www.teamelderblood.com

The information is in the win-ratio section.

It's fairly obvious that these statistics are not accurate. They probably need to work on their math skills. We could argue as to whether Nilfgaard is in 2nd, 3rd, or 4th place, but nearly every single Gwent player is in agreement that Scoia'tael is currently the worst faction. Absolutely no one would say that Scoia'tael wins more regularly than Nilfgaard.

 

[Celadyl]

What do you mean with individual win ratio?

right below overall win-ratio you can see the highest win-ratios by (probably) pro players, where the best achieved a win ratio of 81%. monsters had a lower ceiling yet a better overall win-ratio in the top 5, SK had the best. the overall win-ratio is inflated by the playrate of the faction, which is by far the highest at over 23%.

edit: just saw it's all pro rank. I would say the lower win rate is due to people teching heavers and even heatwave, which makes for a more binary matchup against NG and SY, which are both at the low end.

but another thing to notice is SY has the lowest win-ratio in top 5 players. even ST has a higher top 5 winrate. imo that solidifies the point about scenario binary. TLG even considers SY to be tier 1

 

[ya1_]

if you look at individual win-ratio NG is the 2nd best (might argue 3rd after MO).

That's because

1) NG wasn't such a farm for SK,

2) NG has consistent wins against the sizable part of the population who helplessly play into removal.

Absolutely no one would say that Scoia'tael wins more regularly than Nilfgaard.

TLG ranked Shirru-Gord higher than any NG deck in the last snapshot. Some of their choices are strange (like Cache neing the only T1) but NG is kinda weak now...

 

[Draconifors]

Those 3rd-party snapshots or whatever are never entirely reliable; they are not based on the complete data, because only CDPR have that.
Not to mention ranking factions is more than likely at least a little bit subjective because it's not based solely on pure, objective numbers.

 

[ya1_]

Yeah but objective data published by CDPR also shows that NG is weak. Still, the rants...

 

[Barracuda88]

Yeah but objective data published by CDPR also shows that NG is weak. Still, the rants...

No, "objective" data doesn't show that NG is "weak". Objective data shows 25 percent of all gwent players play NG at any given time. It shows that on top of that overall popularity, and despite SK warriors and Ethereal massacre last season, Imperial Formation stayed well above 50 percent across all the ranks, EXCEPT when it got into PRO, where all the [...] suddenly started running into people who could play, so the win rates fell down to <gasp> just 51.

 

[ya1_]

"objective" data doesn't show that NG is "weak".

4th in 6 is kinda weak...

It shows that on top of that overall popularity, and despite SK warriors and Ethereal massacre last season, Imperial Formation stayed well above 50 percent

So did NR on top of even greater popularity. Puts NG in the loser half.

We can argue like this forever. Stats show it's weak. Most top players say it's kinda weak, relatively. You say it's op. Well, opinions... Kinda reminds of the good old flat earth discussion.

PRO, where all the [...] suddenly started running into people who could play, so the win rates fell down to <gasp> just 51.

Exactly. Once you learn to play, NG is not that strong. Basically, it's the root of all NG rants...

 

[Barracuda88]

4th in 6 is kinda weak...



Exactly. Once you learn to play, NG is not that strong. Basically the root of all NG rants...

Post automatically merged: Aug 18, 2020

So did NR on top of even greater popularity. Puts NG in the loser half.

We can argue like this forever. Stats show it's weak. Most top players say it's kinda weak, relatively. You say it's op. Well, opinions... Kinda reminds of the good old flat earth discussion.

I guess I don't know what numbers you're looking at, then. I thought you said objective data from CDPR, so I looked at the winrate numbers from the Griffin they posted. Moreover, I never said NG was "OP." I said it wasn't "weak," which, once again, CDPR data doesn't show them to be. Do you consider "weak" and "OP" the only valid options here or something?

 

[ya1_]

I guess I don't know what numbers you're looking at, then.

Pro rank play rates and win rates from CDPR where Formation got 50.8% win rate which put it at 4th place and not much ahead of ST at 5th with 50.4%.

Anyways, afaik many people talk about dropping NG from their 4 factions this season. SK is no longer dominating so taking your Ball for granted in 30-40% games is no longer the case. In fact, only SK warriors and NR and MO-OH roll without Oneiro+Heaver+Heatwave. And all these factions have major point advantage over NG at all provision ranges. What's more, Crystal Skull is another free engine in R1 so you're not so crazy about red coin anymore.

All that veil and number of cheap engines increasing, and NG still rolls with weak conditional 5/6 for 4 and 7 for 5 with a catch. While other factions got 7 for 4 and 8 for 5 just like that. People complained about no nerfs to NG but in fact the introduction of veil was the biggest faction nerf since MM. And lack of serious new bronzes with values updated to today's standards (Angry Mob lol...).

I'm confident that you will see ST get ahead of NG by a sizable margin this season. People realized that devo ST just isn't working and stopped experimenting with it, and SK isn't constricting ST so much anymore. With SY back on top, it seems NG might be the weakest faction right now. The whole #nerfvincent is starting to sound truly ridiculous.

However, there will always be greed brains who just won't play around anything. So maybe as long as NG can farm those, it will never be the weakest...

 

[Barracuda88]

Pro rank play rates and win rates from CDPR where Formation got 50.8% win rate which put it at 4th place and not much ahead of ST at 5th with 50.4%.

Anyways, afaik many people talk about dropping NG from their 4 factions this season. SK is no longer dominating so taking your Ball for granted in 30-40% games is no longer the case. In fact, only SK warriors and NR and MO-OH roll without Oneiro+Heaver+Heatwave. And all these factions have major point advantage over NG at all provision ranges. What's more, Crystal Skull is another free engine in R1 so you're not so crazy about red coin anymore.

All that veil and number of cheap engines increasing, and NG still rolls with weak conditional 5/6 for 4 and 7 for 5 with a catch. While other factions got 7 for 4 and 8 for 5 just like that. People complained about no nerfs to NG but in fact the introduction of veil was the biggest faction nerf since MM. And lack of serious new bronzes with values updated to today's standards (Angry Mob lol...).

I'm confident that you will see ST get ahead of NG by a sizable margin this season. People realized that devo ST just isn't working and stopped experimenting with it, and SK isn't constricting ST so much anymore. With SY back on top, it seems NG might be the weakest faction right now. The whole #nerfvincent is starting to sound truly ridiculous.

However, there will always be greed brains who just won't play around anything. So maybe as long as NG can farm those, it will never be the weakest...

Yeah, like I said, NG is going to have a tougher time in PRO, because people will play around gimmicks like Vince and Yen and Ciri Enslave, and will tech in heavers and whatnot. That's a pretty small percentage of players, though. Look at other brackets: 54, 56, 57, 52. Those aren't "weak" numbers. Just because Second Wind was at 70, doesn't mean Formation at 57 is weak. Under 45 is weak. Under 1 percent popularity is weak.

The comparison with ST is once again not very good, because Formation was more than TWICE as popular as Precision Strike and still managed to maintain higher win rate. If we had access to real statistics, such as win rates per matchup, vs both, races and leader abilities (specifically excluding mirrors), we would see that the numbers were not that close at all.

And as for people "talking about dropping" NG... I'll believe that as soon as I see NG at less than 20%. Nor do I think ST is going to pull away anywhere this season. There was ZERO meaningful buffs to ST, and the SK nerf doesn't really affect ST more than anybody else. Ambush and PS will still hang around 50 percent like they always have, and the rest will continue to scrape the bottom.

 

[ya1_]

There was ZERO meaningful buffs to ST

Handbuff was buffed, and some dwarves. The Schirru-Gord deck, right now nothing NG can muster is even close to it imo. And it's seeing play a lot.

SK nerf doesn't really affect ST more than anybody else.

Wrong. SK has pretty weak R1 now. Without Blacksmiths, most ST hands now got enough juice to handle ships and Herkja. And denying last say = Gord/Sheldon survive Morkvarg/Lugos/Champion. Also, Blacksmiths could mess up Schirru value. Now, just about everything in R2 lines up at 5 power for a massive Schirru bleed.

SK nerf did also affect NG. Because the less people play devotion the less Ball decks win.

Yeah, like I said, NG is going to have a tougher time in PRO, because people will play around gimmicks

Which is exactly what makes it weak (and having no points and veil and other things). You basically agreed that NG is only strong when people don't know how to play.

 

[Barracuda88]

Handbuff was buffed, and some dwarves. The Schirru-Gord deck, right now nothing NG can muster is even close to it imo. And it's seeing play a lot.

Like I said, zero meaningful buffs. The pyro and guardian buffs are all warm and fuzzy, but they made no impact at all on the meta. The dwarf deck is still not in play. The attempt to incorporate Sheldon and agitators into the Schirru/Gord list just made it more awkward, imo. You pretty much have to remove symbio units to make room and to me it just is not worth the tradeoff. Saboteur is still not played anywhere, EVER. The NG not being able to muster anything close to it is some kind of a joke, I guess. Lockdown basically removes Schirru from the game entirely. And hyperthin does really well, too.

Wrong. SK has pretty weak R1 now. Without Blacksmiths, most ST hands now got enough juice to handle ships and Herkja. And denying last say = Gord/Sheldon survive Morkvarg/Lugos/Champion. Also, Blacksmiths could mess up Schirru value. Now, just about everything in R2 lines up at 5 power for a massive Schirru bleed.

"Most ST hands." I'll assume you're talking specifically about the Schirru deck, because otherwise it would be hilarious. Also, SK must be "Warriors." Anyway, blacksmith nerf hurt them, of course, but SK Warriors is still T1 deck. Yes, it is actually possible to win R1 against them on occasion (though they most definitely don't have a "pretty weak R1", unless they misdraw and misflip) and have a good bleed in R2, but none of that specifically benefits ST more than any other faction. ST doesn't auto-lose if Schirru doesn't explode in R2, and anybody playing a big finisher (MO, for example) against SK is going to try to have last say.

SK nerf did also affect NG. Because the less people play devotion the less Ball decks win.

Two months ago there was no devotion at all. Then there was devotion but also veil. Now, the two arguably top decks are still SK and NR Devotion, and they are still played a ton. I would say if anything affected NG, it's the buff to SY more than nerf to SK, but whatever. Also, every faction has a scenario.

Which is exactly what makes it weak (and having no points and veil and other things). You basically agreed that NG is only strong when people don't know how to play.

I basically agreed that NG is not OP. I think it's is pretty strong in current meta. I think veil made VERY little difference to NG in the scheme of things. Bronze veil engines are usually very much within the joust range, anyway, and the bigger veil units play into Vincent, Yen, Vilge or, push comes to shove, the diviner. And on the other hand, spies were a pretty big boost to the faction.

 

[ya1_]

Now, the two arguably top decks are still SK and NR Devotion

Are you by any chance getting inspiration from Team Elder Blood?