Proposed changes to ST

[Guest 4404014]

As we know, ST is the weakest faction now and it's competitively unplayable. As far as I know, It was almost unrepresented in the latest TLG Invitational Tournament. The strongest ST deck seems to be the Elven Symbiosis but it's unplayable vs. SK (with 30% play rate in pro, I hear...). It's hardly competitive in most other meta match-ups, too. Other ST decks are too weak to even have some fun in unranked.

I think the answer is careful changes ACROSS THE WHOLE FACTION and not just one or two cherry-picked stats, as was done in the SK hotfix and did absolutely nothing. Here's some proposed changes.

1) Buff the poison package. The only option for tall punish in devoted ST is the poison. With the harmony bricking, those ST poison cards are really low value. I'd like to see Whisperers at 3 for 4 plus poison. And nobody cares about that shield (mostly). Or if they do, then move harmony to Whisperers, and provision buff Rangers. Inclusion of the extra 4 or 5 units for 20 or 27 provisions respectively really hurts the ST archetypes now that some symbiosis must also be included to keep up with the post-MM power plays. Especially when those cards have zero synergy in non-harmony ST.

2) Buff Mystic Echo. The 12 provisions were balanced around Water of Brokilon which was effectively bricked by the harmony nerf. There is now no reason why this leader should be so restrictive.

3) Make Young Dryads 3 tall. Seems a lot but bear with me. 1) Every other evolving card deploys for at least 12 (unless you choose less than 5 tall unit for Auberon). Eithne is a sad 10. 2) Eithne herself got worst pings. Symbiosis is the only effect whose synergistic tags are limited by the minimum number of units. Not to mention that half the nature cards are simply garbage. 3) Symbiosis synergy depends on Young Dryads staying alive. They simply don't. 4) Usurper procs status boosts on deploy. Jaques procs Fallen Knight and clerics on deploy. Auberon and Harald proc bronze deploy effects on deploy. Eithne does nothing on deploy.

4) Make handbuffs stick after Ethne's transformation. This is the only example of negative synergy between the veiled engine and the evolving card. Freixenet also bricks way too often if played early.

5) Add 2 armor to the defender. Being one-shottable by a 4p special from a deck with 30% play rate...

6) Rework Circle of Life. I'm not quite sure what's the most useless MM card: CoL, Angry Mob or Will of the Wisp. Make it 4 provisions. 1) ST got no room at 5 and lots of room at 4. Some Gord decks even use Tempering without dwarves in deck because there's nothing else to put there. 2) 4p seem a lot but, hey, even if you meet the condition and double the handbuff value (Aglais or Sheldon) it would still be a not-at-all out-of-place 7 for 4. SK feels good with almost non-conditional 8 for 4 and 5 for 4 plus 1 targeted boost/turn so... Or make it 2 dmg 2 handbuff with no deathblow condition. Or, I don't know, do something, symbiosis desperately needs another functional nature card...

Let's stop at that. Thank you for reading and I would love to know what you think. Cheers!

PS. I forgot about the echo card. It needs a complete rework.

 

[DRK3]

I agree with the general idea - a complete overhaul of ST in August 2020, just like in August 2019 we had the NR overhaul, which took the weakest faction and made it one of the best (NR hasnt been at the bottom of the meta since then)

But i really hope they dont do it by buffing poison. I agree ST needs better tall removal/resets, i just wish that didnt have to be with freakin poison.

3) is a good suggestion, that could have significant impact. Using a lacerate to instakill those dryads spawned by eithne on R3, i can almost feel my opponent giving up, as they wont have enough symbiosis units to actually get decent points through nature cards

4) small buff, but i think its too hard technically for them to bother to implement

5) i disagree with this buff, i would rather see that stupid SK stunning blow get nerfed instead, 4dmg/6dmg with armor

6) i dont think circle of life is that bad, the problem is the low tempo, so in a round where you cant afford to lose tempo, it's kinda bad even though the theoretical value is decent

And yes, rework for ST's echo card

 

[Chilly84]

For about half a month, ST is the weakest faction and there are so many complains.
Where were the Post about Monsters when they were the weakest for about half a year?
I would say just wait until next Patch. I'm sure devs will change something... At least i hope so... I stopped playing 2 weaks ago....jep..because of SK.

 

[Hegemonkey]

I think Eithne tokens are fair at 2. At 3 they would be too strong. She already has the highest point potential out of all of the evolving leaders. It's up to you to protect your dryads with buffs or whatnot.

Even if the overall power level of ST is low atm, Eithne is still one of the most powerful cards of the MM set

 

[Breli]

I think Eithne tokens are fair at 2. At 3 they would be too strong. She already has the highest point potential out of all of the evolving leaders. It's up to you to protect your dryads with buffs or whatnot. Even if the overall power level of ST is low atm, Eithne is still one of the most powerful cards of the MM set

Well, I don't know about that. Yes the potential is high but on average she doesn't do significantly better than the others and is definately weaker than Harald. The young dryads rarely live, how many nature cards are you realisitcally playing and can you stick to the sequence etc. pp. ... too many ifs and whens.

Most annoyingly: She loses buffs when transforming. I'll report that as a bug now. Hopefully, they fix at least that ...

Edit: As for the original topic: I also hope for a complete overhaul with some interesting concepts for ST. Just look at the golds and compare those to any other faction. They mostly do the same and are not unique or interesting in any way. Boredom all over. Just compare that to NG for instance. But I am repeating myself ...

 

[Guest 4404014]

5) i disagree with this buff, i would rather see that stupid SK stunning blow get nerfed instead, 4dmg/6dmg with armor

Nerfing Stunning Blow is another thing. But even with SB at 4/6dmg, Figgis is left at 1 power and has 50% to die from a dmg ping. There must be an option to keep him alive. A defender cannot get one-shotted by a 4p card! Especially when the current archetypes, Young Dryads, Sages, etc, really need that defender.

Anyway, all defenders are 7body + 2armor + extra something for defense (shield, extra armor, armor regen, etc.). Figgis got -2 body and nothing extra for defense, just the Rowdy Dwarf that has nothing to do with the defender functionality.

She already has the highest point potential out of all of the evolving leaders. (...) Even if the overall power level of ST is low atm, Eithne is still one of the most powerful cards of the MM set

Eithne is the very worst evolving card. Touches down with least value, produces no immediate value from synergies with other cards. The synergy tag - nature - has the worst cards. To catch up with the other evolving cards' value, you need to play 2 nature cards, provided the tokens survive, which they hardly ever do against a thinking player.

It's up to you to protect your dryads with buffs or whatnot.

They touch down at 2 and turn over. How can you protect them with buffs? ST doesn't have engine protection tools, and you can't handbuff them. Only Miner or Guerilla Tactics (lol) which still leaves them in 4 removal range. Mystic Echo or Call of Harmony into a boost is not viable, and also only covers one of them since ST has no AoE buffs.

And packing a defender which is a 9 provision dud vs. the most popular faction is just not viable. Even with a defender, there are many ways to deal 2 untargeted dmg.

 

[Hegemonkey]

Most annoyingly: She loses buffs when transforming. I'll report that as a bug now. Hopefully, they fix at least that ...

This part I do agree with, it is annoying that she eats handbuffs.


Any decent list I've played with symbiosis runs 7 nature cards and Forest Protector to make 8.
There are multiple issues with running minimal units:

1: your opponent has more freedom to hold their removal making it more likely the young dryads are removed in R3

2: you play right into tall punish making your chances of winning round 1 very low, especially with how low tempo most of the setup plays are for things like elven scribe and Hamadryad

3: if you are running a bunch of bad nature cards in your deck, you are gonna struggle because your deck has cards like tempering in it. Gord is not worth it, especially if you get bullied out of round 1 and dont get last say.

Symbiosis works best in hybrid lists because you are less reliant on it to win games making the lines you can take to win more flexible. Just by having more minions you increase the likelihood of your dryads surviving in R3 long enough to buff them up. So less is more with nature cards really because you increase the chance of getting symbiosis value by being able to more consistently compete for round 1. Getting round control shouldn't be underrated.

Call of the Forest, Isengrim's, Nature's Rebuke and Dryad's Caress are basically the autoinclude nature cards. The last spot is flexible depending on the kind of strategy you go for. It can either be Waters of Brokilon, a one of circle of life, or maybe Nature's Blessing if you can make it work for you(it is the worst of the echo cards you're right there).

The harmony nerf did feel harsh, but I understand the reasoning behind it. Since the buffs are row locked, it discourages going double waters in R3. If you use your first WoB to win R1 or bleed/resist being bled R2, it can still be a powerful card. Also using it in a list with Eithne can put your opponent in a tough spot by forcing them to choose what engines are more threatening and demand their removal.

 

[Breli]

Any decent list I've played with symbiosis runs 7 nature cards and Forest Protector to make 8.
There are multiple issues with running minimal units:

Yeah, but not in one round! I know the lists. I play them too. Typically, you have her in R3 and you have like 2 or 3 nature cards. Four maybe with protector. Rarely more. Chances are you need to deal with a threat before you can play Eithne. One card down. Once you play her, at least one YD dies immediately, next nature card, next YD dead ...

 

[Hegemonkey]

Yeah, but not in one round! I know the lists. Typically, you have her in R3 and you have like 2 or 3 nature cards. Four maybe with protector. Rarely more.

Expecting to get off more than 3 or 4 nature cards with Eithne is supergreed honestly. Even with 2 she already plays for 16 points which is pretty good.

 

[sfruzz]

I'd like to see the ST Movement archetype buffed. When I discovered that all the new row-locked cards with the long-term effect (if order is not used than...), retain their passive bonus even when moved to the other row, I was disappointed.

In time, I'd like to see some buffs to ST, but not the one OP proposed. Before buffing Mystic Echo, I'd rather see some provision adjustment (or rework) for Invigorate. Instead of a new poison met, I'd prefer to see Sheldon Skaggs buffed.

Most annoyingly: She loses buffs when transforming. I'll report that as a bug now. Hopefully, they fix at least that ...

I assume it works as intended. But indeed it's unfortunate that Eithne cannot retain the buff.

 

[Guest 4404014]

Symbiosis works best in hybrid lists because you are less reliant on it to win games making the lines you can take to win more flexible

It works best in hybrids because there is nothing else. But it doesn't mean it works well. Old elves, be it the pure scenario elves or the radeya elves or the hybrid one with the poison package and oak, those decks were so much stronger in their respective metas than the Elven Symbiosis is now.

Post automatically merged: Jul 20, 2020

Even with 2 she already plays for 16 points which is pretty good.

It's pretty average. After two cards with synergy tags, only Usurper and Jaques get less (14). Now, this value is conditional on Young Dryands surviving, so it's obviously the worst value in the game. Plus there is no immediate synergy value like Usurper + Dames/Seditious or Jaques + Fallen Knight/clerics.

So it's average in a fantasy world when Young Dryads live and the other evolving cards touch down with no setup, and the very worst one in reality.

 

[Hegemonkey]

It works best in hybrids because there is nothing else. But it doesn't mean it works well. Old elves, be it the pure scenario elves or the radeya elves or the hybrid one with the poison package and oak, those decks were so much stronger in their respective metas than the Elven Symbiosis is now.

ST isn't the top dog anymore that isn't news to anyone. It's okay for it to not be the best class. The buffs you are suggesting seem aimed to make it the top dog by overtuning cards like Eithne, which is perfectly fine where she is. The mystic echo and Nature's Blessing rework are really the only reasonable suggestions I see.

If you struggle to get value from Eithne, I think that is more due to pilot error than the cards power level. Either that or you are leaning too hard on having one card carry your whole deck. When you do that, you are just asking to be punished no matter what that one card is.

 

[Markus_Wirth]

1) I would not appreciate it. To my mind poison best fits to NG status synergies with thirsty dames and ball. Generally, consider it to be ok that you can expect a bit of poison playing against SY and SC but poison doesn´t synergize well with them. If they have only a bit poison players can probably play for one removal (e.g. poison dryad and poison ent synergizing with harmony)


To my mind there is also a lot of need for improvement since SK is still dominating. To your suggestions: I think they are too intense and would probably kill SK as harmony nerv did to SC.

2) Buff Mystic Echo. The 12 provisions were balanced around Water of Brokilon which was effectively bricked by the harmony nerf. There is now no reason why this leader should be so restrictive.
-> Yes, that´s reasonable. Additionally, I would not limit harmony to rows and make water of brokilion an artefact.

3) Make Young Dryads 3 tall. To my mind this is probably a bit too strong as this would count for all cards related too young dryads (e.g. also Freixenet). Below I discussed the various leaders (from another discussion). The bad thing of Eithne is that her passive ability is so weak. I would add the following: If you play an ent give one random unit one vitality and/or If you play a dryad give one random unit one armour. Then her passive value might be also competitive.

To my mind each fraction´s evolving card should be somehow the same value. If you want to evaluate those leader you have to evaluate the powerful deploy action and the passive Action and potential synergies. I will do for each and every leader, as the base value of all those is the same with 5. I start with the perceived strongest and go to the highest.
a) Eithne: Deploy two young dryads (value of those should be 6 to my mind as I would argue that symbiosis has a value of about 1;
Eithne has symbiosis as a passive ability (also 1 point). So here overall value in round 3 would be 13.
b) Jacques Aldersberg: Deploy two flaming rose footman (value would be 5,5 to my mind as they have potential synergies in swarm decks, with the one being damaged by missing firesowrn tokens and with fallen knights; Furthermore the coins could theoretical also be saved).
Passive ability appears to be much stronger. Usually Jacques is played very early in round 3 (only playing Fallen Knight before makes sense as they get 2 points from Jacques). So he gets an additional point potential of round about 5 if not removed. The passive ability I would count for 3,5 points due to the danger of removal. So here overall value in round 3 would be 15.
c) Auberon: Create and play a WH bronze (6 points as it is boosted by 1 automatically. And the drawn card usually has at least a value of 5).
Passive ability: Is smiliar to Jacques but I would evaluate this with 4 points due to lower danger of tall removal. So here overall value in round 3 would be 16.
d) Usurper: Create and play two operatives (7,5 points due to high synergy with aristocrates, Impera Enforcers, Assimiliate, Thirsty Dames and potential to spam the deck). For the passive ability I would only give round about 2,5 points. The reason is that usually the aristocrates and other spying agents are played before Usurper and there are not so many fitting agent cards. So here overall value in round 3 would be 16.
e) Harald: Play a bronze warrior from your deck (6 points assuming Greatswords is the target and directly boosted or similar engine.
For the passive ability I would also count 6 points. Reason: High probability that it causes synergies (Greatsword massacre or blood thirst). Usually, not often removed as removal cards has already been spent for Greatsword/Dragur. So here overall value in round 3 would be 19.
If you limit to non piercing damage the passive ability I would count for 4,5. And for the deploy activity I would count for 4 points. Then Harald would be round about 14,5 (being the second worst after Eithne).
I would limit him to 5 and abolish piercing damage. Then he would have a decent value of round about 15,5 and Greatsword massacre would be siginifantly reduced.

4) Appears to be a minor issue

5) To my mind SC defender is nice. Mostly used at Mahakam forces but also at symbiosis if want to protect Hamadryade. Nevertheless, defenders all cost 9 provisions but do have different values (best is SK 7 strength 2 armour + beserker 6 one add. armour; Then NR 7 Stregth + 2 armour + shield, Then NG 7 strength 4 armour plus flexibility of tactic card, then MO 7 strength of 4 armour, then SY max 2 units with each 1 strength and 1 armour plus additional 5 non-defender strength, then SC 5 strength + 2 armour + 2 dwarf)
-> He will be kind of strong if you synergize him in Mahakam force deck. I would change him accordingly:
Melee: Deploy that dwarf
Range: Get a shield
-> So there´s more flexibility if you play him not in your Mahakam forces but want to protect your hamadryades and your symbiosis.

6) Circle of Life only make sense when you want to boost Aglais or Sheldon. Otherwise it´s a 5 for 5 plus nature. Taking into account how many ridiculuos strong 4 provision cards there are, this card should only cost 4 provisions.

Echo Card: To be honest: I do not think that this card is weak. You can nicely boost your hamadryades. You can protect already poisoned units with veil. And in worst case it is a 9 for 8 including Echo and Nature synergy.

 

[Guest 4404014]

Eithne (...) is perfectly fine where she is

Then explain why the first ST in global pro ladder is at 84th place.

Melee: Deploy that dwarf
Range: Get a shield

Bingo. Great idea.

hamadryades

Are hot garbage. They leech value from many cards and then play into Morkvarg, Heatwave, Baron, Imlerith, Vincent, Igni, anything.

Good strategy when you see ppl actually including it is to let them boost it up before killing it even if it costs some symbiosis value. Because you know they will use up cards on it.

 

[Alexander_Volgin]

Revert the nerf to harmony.
Restrict Mystic Echo to play card at 10 provision limit, while buffing a unit by 1 for each provision below 10 a special card is played.
Provision buff to Mystic Echo
+ buff to tokens that support Symbiosis package, or decrease in provision cost of cards that spawn tokens, including Eithne.

The best decision on he other hand is to nerf every other faction or card to the ground so that it is on the same level as ST.
Golds are way to OP. The day Homecoming was lauched, the initial design philosophy was that the golds sholdn't give points above their provision costs. And I like that design philosophy, when there is less of an impact whether you draw your 14 provision Scenario or 4 provision bronze.

 

[Six-Sided-Prism]

I agree with the OP's points 4-6 plus the Echo rework, but 1-3 would be mistakes. Young Dryads cannot be made stronger, Poison is one of the few parts of Scoia'tael that's actually balanced, and Mystic Echo just needs to be given a provision cap of 10 so that it can't be used to replay Waters of Brokilon and any future overpowered Nature cards; if it receives this cap, then they can definitely raise the deck provision bonus of the leader.

I still say that if the recent change to Harmony stays, then the checks for unique tags should also be row-dependent. Therefore, your duplicate tags could at least be used to proc Harmony engines on both allied rows.

For the most part though, Scoia'tael needs a complete redesign. They need to have a full package of cards that synergize around allied unit movement along with additional ways to move them, both within a row and between them. In addition, traps (and units with Ambush) should be made into a playable archetype, making the rewards worth the risk of them not getting triggered. It also wouldn't be a bad idea to tweak some of the cards for the other archetypes, like dwarves or elves, but movement and ambush should definitely be the main Scoia'tael archetypes as these are completely unique to the faction, in the same way that Consume and Deathwish are mostly unique to the Monsters faction, Disloyal units and playing enemy cards are mostly unique to the Nilfgaard faction, discarding and resurrecting cards is mostly unique to the Skellige faction, and the coin mechanic is entirely unique to the Syndicate faction. Unforrunately, I'm not really sure that Northern Realms has any sort of unique identity; they have more engines and ways to boost units, but neither of these are in any way unique to the faction.

 

[Hegemonkey]

Then explain why the first ST in global pro ladder is at 84th

You can't hold one card accountable for the lack of success of the whole class that is bad logic.

The power level of ST is low we all know that. As an individual card, Eithne is still one of the most powerful from the MM set however.

 

[Alexander_Volgin]

You can't hold one card accountable for the lack of success of the whole class that is bad logic.

The power level of ST is low we all know that. As an individual card, Eithne is still one of the most powerful from the MM set however.

As individual card Eithne is 10 points for 11 provisions.
SK beats that (spawning atleast 4p bronze + damages a unit the same turn). SY beats that, MO beats that, NG beats that.
NR maybe not.
Eithne is second worst 'individual card' in this expansion.

 

[Guest 4404014]

As an individual card, Eithne is still one of the most powerful from the MM set however.

I don't know how to reply to that... If you define "power" as a subjective phenomenon, then sure, all the power to Eithne. But when you define "power" as the ability to achieve material results, then Eithne is the worst evolving card. Period.

But even when you treat it as an individual card and disconnect it from how it hopelessly it plays into other cards, it's still crap! Even if the dryads somehow live, and you end up with enough Nature cards to make up for Eithne's shitty value on deploy, then it means you 1) botched your deck by including lots of crap nature cards 2) probably lost R1 and card advantage because you didn't use your Rebukes and Forest Protector to answer stuff like Frigates, Eredin, etc.

Eithne is crap in comparison to the others. Maybe only Jaques compares. Still worth an inclusion but it's the worst of the lot.

Post automatically merged: Jul 21, 2020

Poison is one of the few parts of Scoia'tael that's actually balanced

I knew the idea of putting the words "poison" and "buff" in one sentence would face a lot of opposition but let's face it. Tall removal is a must in current meta if you wanna be competitive. Can't go without. No matter the faction. And devotion ST is the one faction that has none of it outside the poison. The problem with poison - outside purify, consume and inability to remove immediately - is that you have to include at least 4 of them to have them functional. Otherwise the chance of having 2 poisons in hand is not viable. And including this many low value cards that only synergize with a dead archetype - this is hard in current range of viable cards available to ST.

Mystic Echo just needs to be given a provision cap of 10 so that it can't be used to replay Waters of Brokilon

I think the nerf could just be reverted. MM introduced so much power creep that the old harmony would not be very strong now. And the old harmony decks were so tight that many of them didn't even use Rebuke or Heaver. I don't think there would be much leeway to hybridize with symbiosis.

This nerf was an obvious move like "stop playing the old stuff, come buy the new stuff." Only that the new stuff turned out to be crap, and the old stuff is gone.

 

[Hegemonkey]

@ya1

The power lies in creating 3 engines in one turn. There are 3 different ST leaders that let you play a nature card on the same turn(ME and CoH actually can potentially play 2 combined with Protector or fauve..3 if both xD). Spreading the stats can actually be a benefit too in some cases. Blood eagle is the only removal that does exactly 2 damage that is meta at the moment and that still leaves you with 2 engines left. If my opponent uses lacerate or surrender on one card, I feel like I am gonna win that game xD