Q&A with Adam Kiciński and Marcin Iwiński @ GIT 2013

[vivaxardas2015]

Yes, it is very unfortunate that these distinctions come out. On Russian forums it is a common conception that all American gamers are lazy, and need everything to be spelled out like to 5-year old. But there is a great distance between games like Gothic, which did not have any tutorial, and a crazy control scheme, and a constant hand-holding and press to win button. Personally, even back in Russia, I did not play non-localized games in languages other than English, and did not waste my time on games with unintuitive controls. Not because I am lazy, but because I simply did not have time. That one hour a day I had I wanted to spend gaming, and not doing some crap. Gaming is entertainment first of all. I wish the devs understand that it is not about being lazy, stupid, or casual gamer, but about being efficient. Some people may waste their entire lives overcoming senseless difficulties of no importance, and being actually proud of it. It does not make others, who actually value their time, lazy or stupid.

With TW2EE CDPR did it just right - they separated a tutorial for those who need it. But I do not want they fall into the same trap as Arcania devs, who wanted to create the most accessible game for every market, and ended up with a product for pre-schoolers, which actually failed everywhere. In my experience, when devs start talking about Americans being different, and some need to address it, the game has a good chance to be dumbed down, and fail on NA market as well. I hope CDPR have enough brains to avoid a mistake other European devs made before them.

 

[CostinRaz]

Speaking about the perception of American gamers I can say that I've found in general that European players are more skilled then American players, this is both from my personal experience ( I've played Warcraft III for years on both EU and US servers ) and from official Esport or competitive gaming rankings which in general place US teams and players bellow Europeans and, with regards to strategy games, South Korean players.

For the longest time in World of Warcraft the top guilds where European, with merely a few non-EU guilds. Now that's changed to US guilds dominating raiding, but that speaks more about the large amount of top tier EU guilds that quit due to Blizzards BS design decisions then about US skill.

With regards to Counter-Strike, Dota 2, Starcraft I and II then US teams and players are very rarely seen in the top. There are exceptions of course, but they are rare.

 

[Savber123]

Speaking about the perception of American gamers I can say that I've found in general that European players are more skilled then American players, this is both from my personal experience ( I've played Warcraft III for years on both EU and US servers ) and from official Esport or competitive gaming rankings which in general place US teams and players bellow Europeans and, with regards to strategy games, South Korean players.

For the longest time in World of Warcraft the top guilds where European, with merely a few non-EU guilds. Now that's changed to US guilds dominating raiding, but that speaks more about the large amount of top tier EU guilds that quit due to Blizzards BS design decisions then about US skill.

With regards to Counter-Strike, Dota 2, Starcraft I and II then US teams and players are very rarely seen in the top. There are exceptions of course, but they are rare.

Heck if you enjoy League of Legends (which is simple enough as it is), we always see the level of skill coming down to Asian > Europeans > Americans.

The contest always comes down to which Asian or European team within the region is better. It's gone to the part where no one even bothers looking to American teams to learn anything new.

The only time American players stand out is when they pretty much copy off their Asian counterparts.

Just an observation of what usually happens...

 

[vivaxardas2015]

Well, it would be nice to see statistics of how much time is spent on such achievements. May be Americans are not that interested in this kind of recognition to begin with, and are gaming mostly for recreation purposes. Honestly, if my children were to aim to be at the top of some gaming rating, I would get real worried. I prefer them to be at the top of their class, and get accepted to some Ivy League school.

 

[CostinRaz]

First off get rid of that ridiculous notion that top tier gamers are kids doing it in their free time while neglecting school and their real life, they are fully grown adults who have made it their jobs. They get paid salaries for it, they have contracts and sponsors.

As someone who did spend my time as a teenager playing World of Warcraft hardcore, as in 4-10 hours every day, most of the people I met who did the same where not kids or teens, rather they were much older then I was. In fact kids and tens while having the time potentially don't generally give a dam to spend the effort to be hardcore players because they don't take the game seriously as they have to in order to become hardcore.

It's one thing to spend time playing games, it's another to be good at it.

Secondly, as with real life sports players the effort and time required is huge, that's how it simply is. However it is not a matter of time dedicated to it that decides skill: There are just as many if not more top tier American players who spend just as much time and offer as European and Asian players. You simply don't become a professional E-Sport player without a lot of time and effort dedicated to it. However skill wise American players are beaten in most cases by either Europeans or Asians or both.

So skill wise they are sub-par.

 

[vivaxardas2015]

So? There are enough professional sports where USA is not on the top of the list. If we are talking about people who make gaming for money their occupation, professional gamers, well, may be you are right, Americans are not at the top. It does not show that all American gamers, teens and adults, who play games for recreation, are less capable than European gamers in the same category.
By the way, the games you mention, they are games produced by NA companies, and surely their intended audience is not Europeans and Asians, but first of all NA market. So all there hard-core bells and whistles are there for NA market to begin with, and I would think most of their profits come from NA market as well. They sure get a crap-load of money, and it means NA gamers want and appreciate them.
May be more Europeans and Asians want to make careers on competitive gaming scene, and it may be a cultural difference. But I don't really see how it makes all European gamers as a group that includes both professional and recreational gamers, more hard-core.
Also, professional gaming has nothing to do with TW3, it is not a kind of game for it. I really want CDPR just abandon this misconception about NA gamers, and just make a game with the same attitude they had making TW2. Otherwise, TW3 will get dumbed down, and will fail everywhere.

 

[Savber123]

Honestly, if my children were to aim to be at the top of some gaming rating, I would get real worried. I prefer them to be at the top of their class, and get accepted to some Ivy League school.

Well does it tell you about Americans in that Asians and Europeans excel at both?


If Americans see games as recreational activities to focus on other things, shouldn't they be better in other areas?

In Asia, their students excel leagues above in the sciences and mathematics while also having people excelling in the games the play. Excellence all around.

That said, I'm not saying they're a model for everyone (e.g. suicide rate, depression) but you definitely can work for a good balance.

 

[CostinRaz]

So? There are enough professional sports where USA is not on the top of the list. If we are talking about people who make gaming for money their occupation, professional gamers, well, may be you are right, Americans are not at the top. It does not show that all American gamers, teens and adults, who play games for recreation, are less capable than European gamers in the same category.

Untrue. Games are not one single large E-sport category that fits into the larger sports category. Instead E-sports are divided into multiple categories. There are strategy games, MMOs which include both Raiding and Arenas, Fighting Games, First Person Shooters and MOBA's ( Dota 2 and League of Legends ), so there multiple sports.

In every single one of these games that are played as E-Sports for the average players, not top tier mind you and I am not talking about tournaments, the American players and teams rate lower then European and/or Asian players and teams. There is hard data gathered which proves this either the companies who make these games themselves or by other interested in statistics about rankings, or both.

By the way, the games you mention, they are games produced by NA companies, and surely their intended audience is not Europeans and Asians, but first of all NA market. So all there hard-core bells and whistles are there for NA market to begin with, and I would think most of their profits come from NA market as well. They sure get a crap-load of money, and it means NA gamers want and appreciate them.

Nowadays gaming companies don't concern themselves with just one market or another. Sure NA is the largest market but they do care a lot about Europe as well and others, so no games aren't designed purely for North American gamers.

Besides that how the game is designed has nothing to do with the lower skill level of American players vs European and Asians.

May be more Europeans and Asians want to make careers on competitive gaming scene, and it may be a cultural difference. But I don't really see how it makes all European gamers as a group that includes both professional and recreational gamers, more hard-core.

I answered this earlier. Rankings on official leaderboards point to American players ranking lower then European and Asian ones. From Starcraft II to Battlefield 3 to World of Warcraft, where despite the US having the best guilds atm on average the EU still ranks higher.

Also, professional gaming has nothing to do with TW3, it is not a kind of game for it. I really want CDPR just abandon this misconception about NA gamers, and just make a game with the same attitude they had making TW2. Otherwise, TW3 will get dumbed down, and will fail everywhere.

Of course it's not made for professional gaming since that would need a good solid, well developed, well balanced competitive multiplayer mode which CDPR has no intention of doing.

However there is no misconception from CDPR with regards to American players. They are generally less skilled at games versus European players, and statistics prove that.

But with regards to CDPRs point that NA players would easily throw a game into the trash if it had issues with easing you in they are not wrong. Look at W2 reviews and criticism. The highest praise they got was from European Outlets and I don't recall any that criticized the lack of a proper tutorial, or there where very few, whereas North American outlets did heavily criticize it.

Furthermore many people on various forums I have frequented where Witcher discussions arose had the largest crowd of people criticizing the game of North American origin, whereas those praising it were not. Sure there are exceptions.

EDIT: For the record I don't want to see TW3 dumbed down or a tutorial section forced on me every single fucking time I start a new playthrough.

 

[vivaxardas2015]

Well does it tell you about Americans in that Asians and Europeans excel at both?


If Americans see games as recreational activities to focus on other things, shouldn't they be better in other areas?

In Asia, their students excel leagues above in the sciences and mathematics while also having people excelling in the games the play. Excellence all around.

That said, I'm not saying they're a model for everyone (e.g. suicide rate, depression) but you definitely can work for a good balance.

And what Asians are we talking about here? South Korea is fine, but it is nowhere near as advanced as Japan, for example. With a population size that big it is no wonder that there are enough gifted people in Asia. But a number of students winning contests is not really an indicator of country's advances. I am all right with our number of Nobel Prize winners, our advances in technology and sciences. With our population size we are doing amazingly well, I would say. USA is one of the most advanced countries (may be the most advanced country) in the areas of science and technology, and you don't get this result by having dumb, or lazy population. May be South Korea has better professional video games players. Good for them, I guess.

In any case, I strongly believe that making games for the lowest common denominator is a way to ruin. I simply wish none of it to be incorporated into a main game. CDPR believe that NA gamers are special in some sense? Fine, but for fuck's sake, please, do not try to accommodate them in the game itself. Make a good interface for everyone, and give a normal, printed manual. Make a separate tutorial, where you explain all buttons for 10 times, with huge fonts and very large illustrations suitable even for mentally retarded. But do not drag all this crap into the main game. Just keep the main game out of it, and we all will be grateful.

Guys, you may believe that about NA gamers. But even if it might be true, this is a truth that shouldn't matter. This is something I wish CDPR not to take into consideration because it may affect TW3 in the ways we do not like.

 

[CostinRaz]

With our population size we are doing amazingly well, I would say. USA is one of the most advanced countries (may be the most advanced country) in the areas of science and technology, and you don't get this result by having dumb, or lazy population

No you get that by having immigrants who come to your country from much poorer ones to work there in those fields, but that's irrelevant to skill in gaming. What doe scientifical advancements have to do with capability of a country's athletes? Not much if anything at all. Apples to oranges.

Guess what, America is not number 1 at everything, you are not the kings of the world and everyone else beneath you. Is THAT so hard to accept?

Make a separate tutorial, where you explain all buttons for 10 times, with huge fonts and very large illustrations suitable even for mentally retarded.

Fun fact that even when they did that for TW2 people still complained about the tutorial. Calling it condescending.

 

[vivaxardas2015]

I was replying to one of the posts above, about Asia. With a larger population number of people on the extremes of abilities is increased. So it is no wonder that Asia, with like 3 billion people, is able to produce skilled gamers and athletes. These are personal skills, honed by individuals. Technological advances are matter of social interactions, and for them a lot of people should reach a certain level of competence. In USA, where our population is not that big, our advances are quite amazing. Yes, quite a few immigrants contribute in a big way. But USA, contrary to old European and Asian cultures, is a country of immigrants, created by immigrants, and for immigrants. So that new immigrants contribute to country's prosperity is a virtue of our country (for immigrants succeeding in Europe, especially if they came without money, is next to impossible).

Guess what, America is not number 1 at everything, you are not the kings of the world and everyone else beneath you. Is THAT so hard to accept?

Obviously, it is not. South Koreans are better in professional gaming, and, having read a lot of interesting stuff about their gamers, I tend to agree. But it is not what makes some country a king of the world.

Just out of curiosity, if, in your opinion, USA is not #1 technologically, scientifically, politically, and from military perspective (which combined would make a country the king of the world), what country is?

In any case, I do not really want to argue about it. A lot of countries have a lot of positive things, and should be respected, USA and EU included.

 

[CostinRaz]

I'd like to point out that while Asia does have over 3 billion ( over 4 actually at the last estimate ), there only a very small number of countries which are as well developed as the US is. The only exceptions are Taiwan, South Korea and Japan, and they put together have a lower population then the US.

The rest don't count except for China, and I'll get to that in a bit, because they are so poor the vast majority of people can't afford games due to their prices. China is high tech, in parts, and there is an increasing standard of living among the middle class, however the vast majority of games are not solid in China or even outright banned.

World of Warcraft was a major exception, and even then the Chinese version was heavily modified by Blizzard to fit their standards.

Now don't me get wrong I do not want TW3 to be dumbed down by CDPR trying to pursue accessibility, but the fact remains that games like TW2 will have a much harder time on a such a market due to their hardcore nature ( hardcore in terms of story maturity and quality as well as lack of hand holding ).

Just out of curiosity, if, in your opinion, USA is not #1 technologically, scientifically, politically, and from military perspective (which combined would make a country the king of the world), what country is?

I would argue there is no number one as a country. Instead there are countries which are better in certain fields over others.

 

[vivaxardas2015]

Now don't me get wrong I do not want TW3 to be dumbed down by CDPR trying to pursue accessibility, but the fact remains that games like TW2 will have a much harder time on a such a market due to their hardcore nature ( hardcore in terms of story maturity and quality as well as lack of hand holding ).

Well, in this case it is like it should be. Not everyone is able to do rock-climbing, for example. The game will find its players, and players - their game. Dark Souls did really well in NA. May be the devs should simply accept that unless they compromise too much, they will never get Skyrim-size sales, and learn to live with it. CDPR might find a good compromise to make everyone happy, but I am skeptical about it.

 

[Garrison72]

Well this has gotten ridiculous.

 

[Sardukhar]

Yeah! Nice work, Slim! I could hardly have done better myself.

Hmm. Normally Dragon would pop in and smack heads about a half page ago.

" Innovation is bred on open platforms. It might then be better exploited financially on the mass console market, but yeah. I have a lot of hope in the future of GOG and the PC as a platform in general. How will gaming look like? Certainly the PC will provide the newest, most innovative business models, because the PC allows for that, and the consoles react very slowly. "

This I like. It leverages the financial opportunities in console sales and the innovation of PC to give us greatness. Or, it should. Witcher 1 provided enough for Witcher 2 and now Witcher 2 sales will hopefully lead to Witcher 3 being everything that is best in fantasy gaming.

Business sense + artistic direction. I really, really hope CDPR knocks it out of the park and makes the point that you need both to really do well.

 

[dragonbird]

Hmm. Normally Dragon would pop in and smack heads about a half page ago.

I was apparently hovering in mid-air in the wrong place.

Yup, everyone, let's calm this down. Discussing professional game-playing is fine, but the discussion on countries/regions/continents doesn't play nice in an international forum, so lets stop that right now.

 

[wichat]

Ups! Sorry, Kodaemon! I've read it avidly, I've enjoyed it and meanwhile I've forgotten something very impotant: I must to tell you THANK YOU once more... +1 is obliged.