Quest markers are killing the joy of basic exploring.

[metalmaniac21]

Quest markers are killing the joy of basic exploring.

The ones that mark the quest givers first and foremost.

Something bad happened with open world in RPGs. Why am I (and 99% of player base, be honest) once entering the new location metodically "grind" NPCs, exhaust every single dialogue in search for quest entry to collect and peek in every corner? Why did exploration become a chore and once all quests are done the game is pretty much over?

It's those yellow quest npc markers from MMORPGs, which traveled to The Witcher 3 among others. The main purpose of MMORPGs, which are only formally RPGs, is grind and social interactions, no exploring. Quest markers are checkpoints between endless random generated quests of killing monsters and FedEx services. Enabling them in single player RPGs leads to plethora of problems, the vast nothingness between quests, breaking the immersion, damaging writing quality as there's no strict need in clear enough directions coming from NPCs' mouths and so on.

Opening the map full of glowing quest giving markers makes the gameplay even in the best written RPG ever akin to eating a vegan cat food (seriously Canada, WTF, the cats aren't humans, leave them alone and keep away from vegan religion), leaving the basic quest structure of go to one npc, talk, go to other end of the map, do something, return dangerously exposed as you know you have to do similar thing another 999 times over and over again, killing all the fun of simply being in the game's world.

Why is this in CP2077 forum? Because it's relevant to any kind of open world game.

 

[animalfather]

YES!!! like in andromeda if the map tells you exactly what lies on the map then its not exploring. i say get rid of the map all together and put things in your path to discover.

 

[metalmaniac21]

YES!!! like in andromeda if the map tells you exactly what lies on the map then its not exploring. i say get rid of the map all together and put things in your path to discover.

Yup, Andromeda went full retard with this. At least in Witcher series quests have some meat of good writing while Mass Effect was turned into offline MMOTPS with zero substance. Canada, vegans, STAHP

 

[Soldowner]

YES!!! like in andromeda if the map tells you exactly what lies on the map then its not exploring. i say get rid of the map all together and put things in your path to discover.

That comes with its own problems. You can't have a massive open world and have no map at all. Then you have players running around with no idea of where they are, which is worse than being railroaded, in my opinion. You can throw somebody in the jungle, yes, but give them the tools to survive it.

 

[Deadbolt_Don]

If the full map is quick enough, I usually turn off the minimap until it's necessary. Minimap toggle key might be nice.

If there's more organic ways to do it i'm all for it. Morrowind is an example I've heard of that does direction giving well without a minimap.

 

[Suhiira]

While I'd love to get rid of quest markers/direction arrows I don't expect it to happen.

First off you'd pretty much need to have the entire map built before you could place quests so you know what landmarks are available, second in these days of fully-voiced NPCs you'd need to pay for a lot more voice acting, third a lot of folks would throw tantrums ... What? I have to actually think?

 

[metalmaniac21]

First off you'd pretty much need to have the entire map built before you could place quests so you know what landmarks are available, second in these days of fully-voiced NPCs you'd need to pay for a lot more voice acting, third a lot of folks would throw tantrums ... What? I have to actually think?

Why is building a map now a problem all of a sudden? TBH, TES games as much as I heavily dislike them, didn't have quest markers on NPCs, only unique names. And map layouts are far from being masterpiece. Hell, even fan-made Enderal doesn't have quest markers, and that was built by just fans.
In these days of fully-voiced NPCs you'd have to write a script that shouldn't be a Morrowind's boring paragraphs, that's it, nothing more and nothing less.

What? I have to actually think?

It's not an oldschool vs newschool issue, more average joes starting to think that something's wrong.

 

[Zagor-Te-Nay]

While I'd love to get rid of quest markers/direction arrows I don't expect it to happen.

First off you'd pretty much need to have the entire map built before you could place quests so you know what landmarks are available, second in these days of fully-voiced NPCs you'd need to pay for a lot more voice acting, third a lot of folks would throw tantrums ... What? I have to actually think?

It can still be done, even with taking those restrictions in account.

Let's say they design quests that fully rely on < go to quest marker>. Then after the game is nearly finished and all quests are in place, their writers play the game and carefully note landmarks/unique locations that are on the way to your target. Then they write npc dialogue instructions, accordingly..."masking it" with some street slang and with npc personality taken into account; so it doesn't feel like some dry computer generated write up.
Then they script for a journal update/player cell phone( or whatever they'll have in 2077) with , "Oh, I forgot to give you instructions", after you start to move towards it.
I'm no tech geek, but this doesn't seem that difficult or require a lot of time/manpower.

You could say the game would still take an "immersion hit": Well, why doesn't npc give you (voiced) directions right in the dialogue to begin with?...but it's still a better option than one of not having them entirely and the most memorable landmark in Night City becoming



this.

It kind of feels disrespectful from gameplay designers they put no effort in seeing all the work that goes into art/world design as something more ( intuitively) recognized and used directly by the players.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

First off you'd pretty much need to have the entire map built before you could place quests so you know what landmarks are available

Then after the game is nearly finished and all quests are in place, their writers play the game and carefully note landmarks/unique locations that are on the way to your target. Then they write npc dialogue instructions, accordingly...

The writers can write without a playable worldmap (a scetch of it is enough for placing people and objects), the designers, also, can lay out their initial quest designs without a working game -- and both teams cooperate, of course. There's no need to wait for the game to be "nearly finished" before planning for and implementing how the missions and guidances work.

 

[Suhiira]

Oh ... I'm not saying it can't be done.
Merely that it's far easier (and cheaper in terms of time and money) to use markers then to script and voice NPCs to give directions.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

Oh ... I'm not saying it can't be done.
Merely that it's far easier (and cheaper in terms of time and money) to use markers then to script and voice NPCs to give directions.

Oh, that it definitely is.

That's no excuse for cheap design though.
If the studio opted for a game that has some serious expenses (like lots voice acting) and can't manage it, they should rethink their whole approach; should've from the get go.

 

[animalfather]

That comes with its own problems. You can't have a massive open world and have no map at all. Then you have players running around with no idea of where they are, which is worse than being railroaded, in my opinion. You can throw somebody in the jungle, yes, but give them the tools to survive it.

the map reveals itself as you explore. instead of showing everything from the getgo.

 

[Suhiira]

the map reveals itself as you explore. instead of showing everything from the getgo.

In the case of CP2077 in particular ... why?
It's a city, probably the one you grew up in.

 

[Zagor-Te-Nay]

Oh, that it definitely is.

That's no excuse for cheap design though.

That's far too onesided/simplistic way of looking at it...in games of this size ( of dev team and scope), these things can easily change over the course of development( half of things in early Witcher III trailers did not even end up in the game).
But they should try and find solutions to compensate for this, that can be easily implemented on short time.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

That's far too onesided/simplistic way of looking at it

In a way yes, and it might even be considered unfair from a certain point of view, but it isn't a lie. Quest markers are cheap connect-the-dots design. If they choose to "invest a ton of money" to it and boast about it in the media, and still cut corners like that (e.g. cheap follow-the-arrow design), they deserve all the critique.

But they should try and find solutions to compensate for this, that can be easily implemented on short time.

You speak as if they've already decided to go cheap about it and patch stuff in if/when needed and when able, rather than making it properly from the get go. They do not lack the resources to do this properly, you've read the new about their financials; how ever they do it, they do it by choice.

 

[Zagor-Te-Nay]

In a way yes, and it might even be considered unfair from a certain point of view, but it isn't a lie. Quest markers are cheap connect-the-dots design. If they choose to "invest a ton of money" to it and boast about it in the media, and still cut corners like that (e.g. cheap follow-the-arrow design), they deserve all the critique.



You speak as if they've already decided to go cheap about it and patch stuff in if/when needed and when able, rather than making it properly from the get go. They do not lack the resources to do this properly, you've read the new about their financials; how ever they do it, they do it by choice.

It's not a matter of "resources", it's more about dynamic and scope of the game, coordination of dev team. There is far more to it than "dumbing things down". And majority of people, like it or not, actually prefer quest markers.
Point is, they can find a compromise here, regardless.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

It's not a matter of "resources", it's more about dynamic and scope of the game

Of course it's a matter of resurces just as much as it is a matter of design intent.

There is far more to it than "dumbing things down"

Yes there is. What I tried to say is that whether or not they opt for brief or verbose mission descriptions, is a conscious choice that's not some sort of "well, it just didn't happen this time, it was so difficult".

And majority of people, like it or not, actually prefer quest markers.

Let them, I don't care.

Questmarkers are the sort of thing you can pretty much latch onto anything, so if it is decided to go for more verbose mission briefings and leave some work for the player too, they can still tack in an option for a highlighted green trail to follow and exclamation marks hovering over NPC's that have something to say about the green trail in question... For whoever wants that. No chip off anyone else's shoulder unless the game is designed around following a breadcrumtrail and scanning the surroundings for exclamation marks. That's when the urge to uninstall begins.

 

[Suhiira]

It's really a matter of having the option to turn the quest markers off.
The same folks that rely on them probably also skip thru most NPC dialog so it doesn't matter if the NPC gives directions/details. Those that wish can read and follow those directions and turn the quest markers off.
Easy.

 

[metalmaniac21]

It's really a matter of having the option to turn the quest markers off.

Especially here.

Or there's a better alternative... Adding markers later instead of having them in thought the whole development time.

 

[Suhiira]

Yep, markers should be one of the last things added to a game. After QA has determined the directions given by quests or NPCs are sufficient to find locations without them.