Racism

[wisdom000]

Hum...
So young and already a perv.
Sex and ultraviolence in Excalibur. Seriously...

Not sure... but it sounds like you are dismissising the movie...

Have you seen John Boormans Excalibur? Nudity everywhere, people losing limbs left and right, being hacked to bits... the finale of the movie has the knights fighting in blood stained armor, and Mordred impaling Arthur, Arthur pulling himself along Mordreds spear, to get close enough to Drive his sword nearly to the hilt of his own son...

"Come father.... let us embrace at last!"

In my opinion, its the best fantasy movie ever, or at least tied with Conan The Barbarian... beats the tar out of the lord of the rings flicks... where nary a drop of blood is shed.

Plus its one of the earliest onscreen appearances of both Liam Nieson and Patrick Stewartt...

 

[onosendai7]

Not sure... but it sounds like you are dismissising the movie...

Not at all. It's one of my favoured film.

Have you seen John Boormans Excalibur? Nudity everywhere, people losing limbs left and right, being hacked to bits... the finale of the movie has the knights fighting in blood stained armor, and Mordred impaling Arthur, Arthur pulling himself along Mordreds spear, to get close enough to Drive his sword nearly to the hilt of his own son...

"Come father.... let us embrace at last!"

Well, Connery in diapers in Zardoz is quite nudity as well. But I do not consider Excalibur a monument of nudity.
First time (and last time) we had realistic and graphic Knights in armor fights. No fancy swashbuckling (loved Princess Bride )

In my opinion, its the best fantasy movie ever, or at least tied with Conan The Barbarian... beats the tar out of the lord of the rings flicks... where nary a drop of blood is shed.

Plus its one of the earliest onscreen appearances of both Liam Nieson and Patrick Stewartt...

Agreed.
We may also argue that Tolkien and Howards did not really write for the same audience. I'm not shocked by the lack of gore in LoTR (hey, it's a faery tale) and Conan is more, in my mind, adult and dark.
But Baby cart was far more gore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shogun_Assassin).

 

[blank_redge]

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shogun_Assassin)

woohoo! Lone Wolf and Cub! =D

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[wisdom000]

Agreed.
We may also argue that Tolkien and Howards did not really write for the same audience. I'm not shocked by the lack of gore in LoTR (hey, it's a faery tale) and Conan is more, in my mind, adult and dark.
But Baby cart was far more gore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shogun_Assassin).

I didn;t get to see Shogun Assassin till I was around.... 14 I guess... but I picked it up the same day I picked up Flesh and Blood with Rutger Hauer.... oh glorious day...

"All my life, I have waited to make such a cut... to think that it would happen to me is...... ridiculous...."

 

[Sardukhar]

Pffle. After the manga of gloriousness, I have yet to watch Shogun Assassin for more than twenty minutes before turning it off in disappointment. Itto Ogami was just so much more..complex.. in the books. And that art!

Flesh and Blood was good. Excalibur mightbe the best, although I have bits of fantasy movies from all over I love. Willow, Sword and the Sorceror, even Krull.

That said, if Highlander counts as fantasy, it's be my favourite.

Oh, topic...hmm. Racism is bad. Stop now.

 

[blank_redge]

Pffle. After the manga of gloriousness, I have yet to watch Shogun Assassin for more than twenty minutes before turning it off in disappointment. Itto Ogami was just so much more..complex.. in the books. And that art!

...well, OBVIOUSLY you can't compare the movie to the manga! The manga is superior in every way.

You watch the movie in the same vein as Shaw Brothers movies. Campy martial arts fun: now with more Arterial Spray!

 

[Sardukhar]

Oh, I compare. AND I CAN. HOW SARE YOU TELL ME WHAT I CAN AND CAN'T DO BLAH BLAH. Also, I mis spelled "dare".

So many travesties of conversion. Although I am a huge Toshiro Mifune fan. Well, maybe not huge. Stop lifting, get smaller. Damn it.

Also Beat Takeshi. So good. And, topical mention AGAIN, man are those Japanese yakuza some racist mofos.

 

[onosendai7]

Try the original Japanese edition of the movie.
That is really.... hum.... no, have a try.

And just to add a little about nudity in Excalibur, I would say that it always serve the story (you know, purity of feelings and all that stuff). We are far from the mandatory sex scene we find in nearly all movies today.

 

[ritsukiyo]

Racism purposefully inserted into a game to serve a purpose to a story? I have no problem with that, so long as the racist person is portrayed as being wrong.
But inserting racial stereotypes and portraying them as normal for a certain race is just disgusting.

 

[Sardukhar]

<Strongly controls urges>

 

[onosendai7]

Racism purposefully inserted into a game to serve a purpose to a story? I have no problem with that, so long as the racist person is portrayed as being wrong.
But inserting racial stereotypes and portraying them as normal for a certain race is just disgusting.

All heroic fantasy settings are racists then (elves hate dwarves and humans who hate Elves in return. But they all hate Orks. So weird...)
Ban heroic fantasy !

 

[kilravok]

There will of course be some individuals who fit into the stereotypes, just as in real life. That is after all where stereotypes come from, exagerations and globalisation of specific character traits, habits, social conditions, etc...
And I disagree that a racist has to be portrayed as "wrong". Being a racist is an opinion. There are no right or wrong opinions. Some opinions are prejudice or discriminatory or unfounded or extremist...that only makes those opinions politically incorrect, but not wrong. They are still opinions the same as any other, and just as "right", unless you are one of those who think that only those who fall in line with social doctrines should be allowed to have an opinion at all, but then how are you any better than a racist or sexist?

 

[yjaun]

I didn't find Tiny Tina to be racist, however, the Deus Ex character's voice was extremely exaggerated and reminded me of black characters in early American films (like Hattie McDaniel's character in Gone with the Wind).

 

[username_3641554]

I don't think there should be stereotypical races and what have you. What I do want to see is some form of racism towards the lower class from the upper class. Or those with augmentations and those without. Because racism is real and alive.

This. Basically the corpies bashing and stepping over the rest. Either you are with a corp or you are scum.

Also I would like to see discrimination between corps, just as it happens with sport teams and what not.

 

[Sardukhar]

Discrimination? Most 2020 corporations engage in under-the-table warfare. They steal from each other, blackbag rival executives, sabotage design lines, you name it. Their customers are either caught in the middle or willing pawns in this consumer conflict.

I wonder about consumer relations in 2020/2077. You need them to buy your stuff, but as a Corporate, you stand atop the modern heap and look down on all. Well, except for media stars. They are adored.

So how do they handle customers in the future?

 

[darcler]

I think the OP question is wrong. I wouldn't say that there should be racism in the game, but I'm fine with saying that there could be racism in the game. If someone was to put racism (or misogyny, or sexism, or chauvinism, or antisemitism, or whatever-other-ism that's popular at the moment) just for the sake of it being there, I'd call him stupid (and that'd be an euphemism, also quite popular). But if it would serve the story, or simply fit into the world, I'm fine with that, and my respect would go to the devs, because they would be criticized and attacked, and consequently their sales would also suffer. Most people sadly work on a on-off basis and react the same way to wherever they see their favorite subject used not in a way they'd prefer (it's like fanboysm, who would've thought?), bashing at the offender from their moral high ground. I wouldn't be surprised if CDPR decides not to go quite that far with those controversies, and I won't hold that against them. The humans-non-humans issue of The Witcher series was acceptable because these were quite abstract groups, so no one felt offended, but I bet that if the devs would set up the exact same motive with, say, white humans-black humans conflict, whole Internet would shake from the outcry.

And I recall I saw a person who accused TW2 of being not up to par with modern games because it did not have any African-American characters. (And yes, he used the very term.)

Having said that, although I'll understand if the devs would not delve deeply into such issues in CP, I would really, really like for them not to omit them entirely. I don't see any reason why a random thug on a Night City street should check his tongue when pissed off, after all.

 

[gregski]

I think the OP question is wrong. I wouldn't say that there should be racism in the game, but I'm fine with saying that there could be racism in the game. If someone was to put racism (or misogyny, or sexism, or chauvinism, or antisemitism, or whatever-other-ism that's popular at the moment) just for the sake of it being there, I'd call him stupid (and that'd be an euphemism, also quite popular). But if it would serve the story, or simply fit into the world, I'm fine with that, and my respect would go to the devs, because they would be criticized and attacked, and consequently their sales would also suffer. Most people sadly work on a on-off basis and react the same way to wherever they see their favorite subject used not in a way they'd prefer (it's like fanboysm, who would've thought?), bashing at the offender from their moral high ground. I wouldn't be surprised if CDPR decides not to go quite that far with those controversies, and I won't hold that against them. The humans-non-humans issue of The Witcher series was acceptable because these were quite abstract groups, so no one felt offended, but I bet that if the devs would set up the exact same motive with, say, white humans-black humans conflict, whole Internet would shake from the outcry.

And I recall I saw a person who accused TW2 of being not up to par with modern games because of not having African-Americans in the game. (And yes, he used the very term.)

Having said that, although I'll understand if the devs would not delve deeply into such issues in CP, I would really, really like for them not to omit them entirely. I don't see any reason why a random thug on a Night City street should check his tongue when pissed off, after all.

I think CDPR are rather used to taking flak for the themes of their games. They are constantly called to the blackboard when things like misogyny or sexism in games are mentioned; there's even a certain PC gaming site that can't make an interview with CDPR without asking about gender equality related issues - and CDPR still do their thing, not engaging themselves in pointless arguments. And their games keep selling. I hope they manage to have guts with their another games, not bowing down before anyone and anything but their own ambition and creativity.

 

[onosendai7]

I think CDPR are rather used to taking flak for the themes of their games. They are constantly called to the blackboard when things like misogyny or sexism in games are mentioned; there's even a certain PC gaming site that can't make an interview with CDPR without asking about gender equality related issues - and CDPR still do their thing, not engaging themselves in pointless arguments. And their games keep selling. I hope they manage to have guts with their another games, not bowing down before anyone and anything but their own ambition and creativity.

Frankly, I admire the work done with Witcher 1&2. The universe of the novels is really well depicted, the characters sound true, the world is not polished and I really enjoyed dwelling in it, listening to NPCs and discovering the places. That is what a RPG is like : an adventure in another world which is more than a setting. And yes, if that means sexism, or racism because the world requires it, so be it. Who would believe that European Middle Ages was friendship and courtesy ?
So I sincerly hope they will continue that way.

[TROLL] and that EA will stay very far away from CDPR [/TROLL]

 

[RLKing1969]

Before I begin, I DO NOT IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM ESPOUSE, ENDORSE OR AGREE WITH RACISM OF ANY KIND! Now, having said that, racism is a fact of life and any "reality based game should not pretend the problem doesn't exist... How it's DELT with or to what degree is strictly up to the conscience of the designers.

 

[Decatonkeil]

If you put together future dystopia and cosmopolitanism... you're bound to have racism. This is not a future where people just get along. Maybe certain conflicts that have happened in the Cyberpunk timeline, like maybe an all out open war between say India and Pakistan (I don't know if this happened) have characters from both nations despise each other. Maybe there was a refugee crisis like the one we're living, etc. The thing is that if you want to portray racism the only way to do it is... well, portraying racism. No other parallel is going to work. Maybe fantasy races or mutants, but never cyborgs vs naturals or robots vs humans.

The thing with portraying racism is that it's always very... heh, black and white. It's either that the racists are not only wrong but horrible unredeemable clownshoes people or... well, the work is abhorrent because it promotes racism. It's never just showing that racism is most of the time just either ignorance or, more often than not, intellectual laziness. Not very different from other types of intellectual laziness that lead to political illiteracy even in otherwise pretty intelligent individuals (there are lots of tech, science and economically savvy individuals who don't know jack shit about how their world is run).

As an example: my country was recently the target of islamic terrorists. With as much immigration as we have from the north of africa and the economic crisis and the current political scene in my country some people's knee-jerk reaction to this was spouting racism and divulging islamophobic memes and videos (though some, to be fair, weren't islamofobic but rather tried to paint the islamic population as upholding anti-christian and anti-european feelings). What hurt me most is that some of these comments came from friends of mine that I never thought I'd hear them say. And the problem was that it was kinda difficult to rebate them in such a tense moment. In a way... I kinda envied their simple way of thinking. If I tried to think that way... It'd be so simple. Suddenly the enemy wouldn't be invisible and faceless, you could point at them, fantasize about giving them the beating of their lives, you'd feel justified. But I simply can't. I've met probably one or two that are the stereotype of the muslim you can't trust, that even when coming to you with a friendly attitude, in the end is going to betray you and do it hard. It's happened to me personally. But I've also worked with muslim people in my line of work, had muslim students, some of whom I grew really fond of: well educated, thankful, eager to learn, people that I've seen I've had some effect on.

It would be so easy to think that they're all bad. That the solution is easy. I'd revel in all the jingoism of people and the media that claim for a full blown vengeance war on "their"soil. I wouldn't have to worry about civilian casualties or complexities of any kind.

But I can't.

But this is a thing beyond labels. Most of people on "both ends" of the political spectrum are intellectually lazy. That's why things will never change and people like me will never be happy or feel a sense of belonging.