The thing is Shilard is killed only if you go after Triss. He is one of the NPCs who lives or dies depending on our choices. I doubt that he will be present in TW3. I know about history between Geralt and Emhyr. The simplest and least stupid thing for Emhyr was to write Shilard a letter with an order to keep Geralt alive at all costs. To do it the way CDPR did in TW2 simply lame, completely illogical, and unexplained probably because there were no decent explanation available at all. It felt like simply to end this plot-line, as if a brick falls on Shilard's head from the roof. My reaction was WTF, load a previous save, and never come back.
I too thought that they wanted to remove Shilard but didn't know how to do it gracefully. But just now I loaded a save in the Nilfgaardian camp to take a second look at the letter. "Shilard has failed and we cannot allow his ineptitude to foil my plans", the Emperor writes. Hmmm. That sounds serious: "has failed", "ineptitude", and he can even "foil plans" of the Emperor? Too bad we have to wait for so long to know what it's all about.
Vivaxardas (a mage from Gothic?), do you mean this letter:
"For now, the headstrong sorceresses are mitigated by the actions of witcher Geralt, but in my opinion he knows too much already and will need to be eliminated soon. Upon the conclusion of the summit in Loc Muinne, I will immediately inform Your Imperial Majesty of the summit's results and of the circumstances of the witcher's death."
Yeah it would be weird if the Emperor cared so much. He cared in the books because of Ciri, didn't he? It was a one-time occasion. And he could write to Shilard to leave him alive, if Geralt was somehow useful or a part of his plans now.
That said, I have another random question. This letter mentions that sorceresses are mitigated by the actions of Geralt. I was puzzled when I read that and still am puzzled. Why?
Vivaxardas (a mage from Gothic?), do you mean this letter:
"For now, the headstrong sorceresses are mitigated by the actions of witcher Geralt, but in my opinion he knows too much already and will need to be eliminated soon. Upon the conclusion of the summit in Loc Muinne, I will immediately inform Your Imperial Majesty of the summit's results and of the circumstances of the witcher's death."
Yeah it would be weird if the Emperor cared so much. He cared in the books because of Ciri, didn't he? It was a one-time occasion. And he could write to Shilard to leave him alive, if Geralt was somehow useful or a part of his plans now.
That said, I have another random question. This letter mentions that sorceresses are mitigated by the actions of Geralt. I was puzzled when I read that and still am puzzled. Why?
We *see* Shilard die in the Triss scenario. It's entirely possible that his death is yet to come in the other scenario. It would make sense to assume this since the order to kill him exists regardless of our knowledge.
What probably set the Emperor off was Shilard taking it upon himself to execute Geralt. Beside Geralt being special to the Emperor, it's not okay for a subject to decide for the execution of a man who is apparently of royal interest, since we know the Nilfs investigated Geralt to an extent.
The Emperor probably has a 1000 Shilards at this disposal, and it's not a concern for him whether any reason is good enough for getting rid of an overly willful subject. People like Shilard die in his type of situation all the time because they're ambitious, willful, and can be dangerous. Other powerful people don't like those types.
What probably set the Emperor off was Shilard taking it upon himself to execute Geralt. Beside Geralt being special to the Emperor, it's not okay for a subject to decide for the execution of a man who is apparently of royal interest, since we know the Nilfs investigated Geralt to an extent.
The Emperor probably has a 1000 Shilards at this disposal, and it's not a concern for him whether any reason is good enough for getting rid of an overly willful subject. People like Shilard die in his type of situation all the time because they're ambitious, willful, and can be dangerous. Other powerful people don't like those types.
No, Emhyr did not have 1000 Shilards. Shilard was his go-to guy to deal with the North, he was the one who negotiated the peace of Cintra, for example. Yes, one version was that Shilard wanted Geralt dead against the emperor's plans. But Shilard had no frigging idea about them!!! You can't seriously expect people to read your mind, or something. Instead of giving that stupid order to kill Shilard, Emhyr would have written Shilard directly, and order to leave Geralt alone, keep him captive if it is needed, but not kill him. Plus, it is not a good idea to execute nobles this way, without any trial and proper procedure. Aeryn Targarian, The Mad King, did not last too long when he started this shit.
The letter from Emhyr does not make any sense, at least if Emhyr is not schizophrenic. It was his goal to make Loc Muinne a second Thanedd, to get Northern mages out of the picture. Shilard's death is a failure of this plan, he had to appear on a summit for Emhyr's plan to succeed. Plus, again, as I said, Shilard was not going anywhere. What sense was it to kill him before his mission is successful??? You want to execute him? Fine, wait till he is back, provide some sort of a proper procedure, accuse him of high treason, even if it is made-up, and behead him on a Victory Square. Problem solved.
The letter from Emhyr does not make any sense, at least if Emhyr is not schizophrenic. It was his goal to make Loc Muinne a second Thanedd, to get Northern mages out of the picture. Shilard's death is a failure of this plan, he had to appear on a summit for Emhyr's plan to succeed. Plus, again, as I said, Shilard was not going anywhere. What sense was it to kill him before his mission is successful??? You want to execute him? Fine, wait till he is back, provide some sort of a proper procedure, accuse him of high treason, even if it is made-up, and behead him on a Victory Square. Problem solved.
The letter says nothing about when Shilard should be killed. Maybe they were planning to do it after the summit, but when Geralt appeared in the camp trying to walk through with him they decided "oh heck, why not do it now..."
Also the letter doesn't specify that he should be killed. "Resolve this problem by any means you deem fit, should such a need arise".
Also the letter doesn't specify that he should be killed. "Resolve this problem by any means you deem fit, should such a need arise".
The emperor, if he is not a complete idiot, shouldn't have sent this letter at all. Shilard comes back, Shilard dies. Simple as that. There was no need to send (may be) unclear letters with (unclear)unclear orders to jeopardize the whole operation. The only way I see why this silliness happened in TW2 is because CDPR couldn't find another way to deal with this plot-line and provide an alternative.
The content of the letter is completely crazy. We may even start a conspiracy theory that the letter was written not by Emhyr, but someone from the Lodge switched it for a real one to get Shilard killed, and his mission failed. Then at least Renauld's eagerness to kill Geralt makes much more sense, then if the emperor wants Geralt alive.
The content of the letter is completely crazy. We may even start a conspiracy theory that the letter was written not by Emhyr, but someone from the Lodge switched it for a real one to get Shilard killed, and his mission failed. Then at least Renauld's eagerness to kill Geralt makes much more sense, then if the emperor wants Geralt alive.
It makes sense if Renuald aep Matsen is playing false. We know Renuald is a liar and Shilard's rival. How convenient that Renuald should end up in possession of a letter authorizing him to eliminate Shilard.
Whether the letter is a forgery or a genuine order from the Emperor procured by Renuald's false reports, we don't know.
But we don't have to believe Emhyr to be crazy or incompetent. Just that Renuald would be able to put together a good enough string of lies to get Shilard executed.
When was there ever a monarch's court not replete with climbing, lying backstabbers?
Whether the letter is a forgery or a genuine order from the Emperor procured by Renuald's false reports, we don't know.
But we don't have to believe Emhyr to be crazy or incompetent. Just that Renuald would be able to put together a good enough string of lies to get Shilard executed.
When was there ever a monarch's court not replete with climbing, lying backstabbers?
Again, my problem is with killing him before the emperor's plan succeeds. I can understand if late at night, on their way back, if Renauld really want to kill Shilard, as a loyal Impera guy, he would do it without jeopardizing Emhyr's plans for Loc Muinne. Just cut Shilard's throat and throw him overboard while no one is looking. Oops!
The way it was handled in the game, with no proper explanation, was way too lame. Yes, may be Renauld wanted Shilard dead. He did not expect to die himself. How would he explain what he did, and failed Emhyr's plans? Only if the letter was fake and he did not know it, it makes sense for him to behave this way - he was framed as badly as Shilard. So I would go with the fake letter, but Renauld believing it was a genuine one.
The way it was handled in the game, with no proper explanation, was way too lame. Yes, may be Renauld wanted Shilard dead. He did not expect to die himself. How would he explain what he did, and failed Emhyr's plans? Only if the letter was fake and he did not know it, it makes sense for him to behave this way - he was framed as badly as Shilard. So I would go with the fake letter, but Renauld believing it was a genuine one.
Is it really hard to imagine that there could be other competent ambassadors to the North in Nilf? Nobody is special.
Regardless, why do you think it's a priority for Emhyr to keep Shilard alive or to tell him his plans. Like I said, he probably doesn't have a shortage of ambassadors, and people like him are not very eager to share everything even with their closest subjects.
Also, Shilard dies in the Triss scenario rather abruptly because of Renuad.
But you know what, I just thought of lots of conflicting ideas, and I think that's because I haven't played the game in such a while. I hardly remember some details. Carry on without me ^^
@ Guy: that's what I was going to say as well, but I had to confirm the wording of the letter before I went into this. It's possible Renuad said what he did in order to make his action seem more legit in front of the other soldiers.
Regardless, why do you think it's a priority for Emhyr to keep Shilard alive or to tell him his plans. Like I said, he probably doesn't have a shortage of ambassadors, and people like him are not very eager to share everything even with their closest subjects.
Also, Shilard dies in the Triss scenario rather abruptly because of Renuad.
But you know what, I just thought of lots of conflicting ideas, and I think that's because I haven't played the game in such a while. I hardly remember some details. Carry on without me ^^
@ Guy: that's what I was going to say as well, but I had to confirm the wording of the letter before I went into this. It's possible Renuad said what he did in order to make his action seem more legit in front of the other soldiers.
Look, how stupid Emhyr should be to order to kill his own ambassador before the entire operation is successful? Shilard does not appear on a summit and present Letho - no witch-hunt, a conclave and a council are created. It was exactly what Emhyr did not want to happen, that's why he wanted to turn Loc Muinne into a second Thanedd.
I did not say Emhyr would want Shilard kill at all, but only at than time. Later, when he is back, accuse him, and execute him. The problem is that this letter was more detrimental to imperial plans then anything any northern power ever did in TW2. If carried out, this order would be like a nail in a coffin of the whole nilfgaardian anti-magical operation. That's why the only rational explanation for me is that it was a fake, probably from the Lodge.
Also there is no evidence that Renault was not loyal. Why exactly people so strongly believe that Renauld, an imperial body-guard, would not be loyal??? Shilard does not like him, but it was probably normal - economic aristocracy did not always go along with military one. In any way, I find it more convincing that Renault is not that stupid to invent such silly scheme, but was duped by a fake letter.
I did not say Emhyr would want Shilard kill at all, but only at than time. Later, when he is back, accuse him, and execute him. The problem is that this letter was more detrimental to imperial plans then anything any northern power ever did in TW2. If carried out, this order would be like a nail in a coffin of the whole nilfgaardian anti-magical operation. That's why the only rational explanation for me is that it was a fake, probably from the Lodge.
In this case Renauld is a suicidal nut-job. Emhyr would have his frigging head cut off for ruining a very complicated operation. I doubt that any officer of such a high standing is that stupid. Emhyr is not really a guy who allows a lot of initiative to his people.GuyN said:
Also there is no evidence that Renault was not loyal. Why exactly people so strongly believe that Renauld, an imperial body-guard, would not be loyal??? Shilard does not like him, but it was probably normal - economic aristocracy did not always go along with military one. In any way, I find it more convincing that Renault is not that stupid to invent such silly scheme, but was duped by a fake letter.
I believe you give the courtiers of the White Flame too much credit. I ask again, when was ever a monarch's court not replete with lying, climbing backstabbers? Hypocrites who posed as loyal retainers for years awaiting their chance to seize their rivals by the throat.
They're not civil servants; they're greedy bastards, and in matters far from the court they are the eyes and ears of the Emperor. If Renuald wants to make it out that Shilard is a dangerous traitor, not only will he not have a difficult time being believed, he will be showered with honors when he returns.
They're not civil servants; they're greedy bastards, and in matters far from the court they are the eyes and ears of the Emperor. If Renuald wants to make it out that Shilard is a dangerous traitor, not only will he not have a difficult time being believed, he will be showered with honors when he returns.
There were also loyal people in the courts. If you remember, Renauld dies with the emperor name on his lips. As I see it, he is loyal as a dog, ready to do anything Emhyr commands, without hesitation. He gets the letter where he is ordered to eliminate Shilard, and he does exactly this. The easiest way to neutralize the entire nilfgaardian mission is to switch letters, and Renauld, the loyal emperor's dog, will do the rest.
If the letter is really fake from the Lodge, it was another brilliant plan. If it is a real one, from Emhyr, then Emhyr is a schizophrenic. Well, bad writing of CDPR, more exactly. But I simply don't see that the man who dies crying "Long love the Emperor" would behave the way you suggest.
But what we have here are two competing conspiracy theories, fake letter from the Lodge, or from Renauld. Either one of them is much better as an explanation, then a real letter. I would go with the Lodge. Assire might have done it when she arrived, before Shilard killed her. Or some other nilfgaardian sorceress.
If the letter is really fake from the Lodge, it was another brilliant plan. If it is a real one, from Emhyr, then Emhyr is a schizophrenic. Well, bad writing of CDPR, more exactly. But I simply don't see that the man who dies crying "Long love the Emperor" would behave the way you suggest.
But what we have here are two competing conspiracy theories, fake letter from the Lodge, or from Renauld. Either one of them is much better as an explanation, then a real letter. I would go with the Lodge. Assire might have done it when she arrived, before Shilard killed her. Or some other nilfgaardian sorceress.
I just completed a second playthrough and after talking to Letho I'm intrigued. How did he learn who killed Henselt?
"Do you know who killed him?"
"We both know who did..."
Hmmm.
"Do you know who killed him?"
"We both know who did..."
Hmmm.
Plenty of people around. Geralt goes into a house. Henselt and guards go into the house. Roche goes into the house. Roche and Geralt leave the house. Dead bodies found inside the house.VioletDreams said:
That meant there were only two choices for the identity of the killer - Letho knows both personalities, so the odds are better than 50-50 that he'd be right.
But nobody else suspects them. Well, except Radovid, but it's also quite unclear why, perhaps he can read people like magic and smelled a lie from Geralt's face, voice, whatever.
They even had a talk right afterwards: "Only the two of us know what happened there".
They even had a talk right afterwards: "Only the two of us know what happened there".
I like, when Sabrina's spell appears in Roche's path - our noble king runing in fear and his proffesional army running away from him (sometimes almost over him), leaving him behindVioletDreams said:
nice moment. And for the best (exept Geralt) two mages saved his life (including Sheala ).Henselt is just proud fool, not good king. "I am the f*cking anointed King!" He was trully convicted, he was untouchable, he could do anything, like with Ves. I am happy, I could have a choice, to break him this silly imagination.
Some respect - yes, but only for the king, who deserves that. To Mewe, who fights far away from allies, to Foltest, which showed respect to Geralt, when he was there to cure Adda, to Roche, which saved Geralt's life, to Sheala, which saved her enemy, just because of stability of Kaedwen.
Did I forget, or he trully wasn't fighting in war with Nilfgaard?
vivaxardas said:
I think that letter was real. In the game it's actually hinted that Shilard belong to the same secret organisation that helped Geralt in the first game. If Emhyr find out and combining that with his dislike to any kind of secret conspirations and organisations on his own field, he realised that after Shilard's job is done, he may become a problem. I think this fact have more to do with offing Shilard, then his attempt to get Geralt killed.
Also you give Shilard too much credit. You said that when Renauld killed him he could ruin Emhyr plans. Not at all. Renauld was forced to stop Geralt from saving Triss at any cost and by that I mean killing him. So let's assume that he succeed. Next step? Make everyone think that Geralt (who was already suspected for killing Foltest and possibly Henselt) killed Shilard by convincing Letho to lie that he cooperate with Geralt during his regicides. In the end the result would be the same.
Renauld did not have an authority to speak on the summit, so Shilard's work was not done. Some random guard does not just substitute an ambassador and represents an emperor. And, as I said before, Shilard was not going anywhere, there will be plenty opportunities to kill him later, after his job is done. Why to create all these complications when the mission is nearly accomplished? I am not against an idea that Shilard might be a member of a secret organization, but, again, it is just a guess work. In any case timing was stupid as hell. Also, why not to refuse to let Triss go, and wait till Geralt kills him? This wouldn't raise any questions back in Nilfgaard. If, as you say, Renauld was forced to kill Geralt, why did he start by killing Shilard? Why not to try to shoot Geralt? Sorry, but the entire scene does not make any sense. There is no explanation what was going on. Some unexplained nonsensical letter, suddenly one nilfgaardian kills another, and in 5 minutes all of them are dead. Looks like a cheap way out of the situation, a lazy way to tie loose ends in a story. All our conspiracy theories are our attempt to make sense out of it.
Again, you give Shilard too much credit. So what that Renauld have no authority to speak during summit? You think that the other kings would react like that:
Renauld: Kingslayers murdered nilfgaardian ambassador! We managed to capture one of them!
Radowid: Ow, I'm sorry, but you have no authority to speak here, so we simply going to ignore everything you just said.
Renauld couldn't shoot Geralt, because he was hiding before Shilard's back. Also his soldiers refuse to attack, because they were afraid that they're going to hurt ambassador, so he decided to fulfill his order's a little earlier in order to give them a free pass. If he actually let Geralt save Triss, entire plan could become much, much more harder to accomplish then after Shilard's death, so he simply decided to take the risk. Fortunately for him, Triss unintentionally do what they were planning to do all along.
Renauld: Kingslayers murdered nilfgaardian ambassador! We managed to capture one of them!
Radowid: Ow, I'm sorry, but you have no authority to speak here, so we simply going to ignore everything you just said.
Renauld couldn't shoot Geralt, because he was hiding before Shilard's back. Also his soldiers refuse to attack, because they were afraid that they're going to hurt ambassador, so he decided to fulfill his order's a little earlier in order to give them a free pass. If he actually let Geralt save Triss, entire plan could become much, much more harder to accomplish then after Shilard's death, so he simply decided to take the risk. Fortunately for him, Triss unintentionally do what they were planning to do all along.