Real or Memorex - The Mechanics Debate Thread

[KakitaTatsumaru]

Well, I was responding to a topic on a question about how can close combat be great even in FPP, but the topic got blocked just before I was able to put my message on.
But as I was writing my message, I though that yes, melee can be fun even in FPP (so please no negativity on this topic, only ideas on how it can be made fun).
So here is the message:
"

In one Q&A someone ask about melee combat CDPR say they have great melee combat, in FPP that is simply not possible, if left and right slash with melee weapon like they show in demo is that great combat system and some takedown here and there, then that is same like Skyrim nothing new nothing great or big.

Well, actually, i CAN be great but it would require a TON of work (like, a lot much than what is necessary for the shooter part) and would probably only be usable by an heavily cybered character.
For example:
-Auto dodge
-Dodging rush
-Far Grab'n hit (Mortal Kombat Scorpion Style)
-Bullet deflection/sending then back to your opponent (Jedi Style)
-Auto lock
-Auto object avoidance (to avoid you movements being blocked by the scenery)
-Grabing one enemy/scenery and automatically launch it on another one.
-Grabing one enemy/scenery and using it as a shield.
-Rushing through scenery and charging your enemy sending him away (Juggernaut style)

And the list can possibly goes on, and on, and on...

PS: Any idea I made is totally free of charge for you CDprojekt, so if you need anything from that list just feel free to take whatever you want free of charge."

So why not expand the list and give enough ideas to CDprojekt so Cyberpunk 2077 becomes renowned to have the funniest FPP melee ever made?
EDIT: I had some new ideas:
-Hit and Auto-cover
-Selecting many targets then rushing from one opponent to the other automaticaly.
-Selecting running checkpoint then having the character chaining it automaticaly.

 

[Nikola_Nesic]

Take Elder scroll online for example go FPP and do dodge roll it look like trash, your screen go up and down little and move forward or backward or to side depending where you dodge.

I don't want funny melee combat i would like good melee combat that is vayable like gunplay is, from start to finish with out forcing you to go heavy stealth if you want to play melee oriented character.

 

[drow5426]

I hope CDPR will make it, but now it isn't really clear what they want to do.

Post automatically merged: Aug 31, 2018

We need to somehow give this message to CDPR, guys. And it is very important to keep these threads alive!

You guys need to send this thread to the devs on Facebook or discord through private message

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

Then be constructive and give ideas, that's the whole point on the topic, because you won't have exactly what we both wants, so make it the best possible with the idea of FFP on mind.

 

[Nikola_Nesic]

Lol there is none that come to my mind that would look good in FPP.

Far Grab'n hit like you say you need some chain like weapon like Kusarigama or cyber implant to give you rope with hook.

Bullet deflection sure with Katana, but again that would be hard i mean we talk bullets not arrows, but again that is only for Katanas and other sword types, you can say slice bullets with mantis blades or hand razors if they add thos in game.

Selecting many targets then rushing from one opponent to the other automaticaly. that sure sound cool but again that would be more like some Ultimate skill for multipal takedown.

 

[AlexiaRevan]

did you really mean ''I can be great' or ''it can be great'' ? lol sorry...

anyway , I was kinda surprised by those arms upgrades I saw . It also look like it would be fun when you stealth..then CARNAGE!

But I'm more for wielding weapons though . and I mean katana , knife...whatever .

I had alot of fun in ME3 , hiding then grabbing a cerbrus bastard and POP his head with a fist .

One thing I remember from an older game , it was THIEF . Dunno if you played that game , but since we will be in FPP , I would love to have something like there was in THIEF . As in for exemple , use light and darkness to your advantage . Instead of just rush in and shoot then hide..then shoot some more . One thing in THIEF you could do , was use arrows to extenguish light . Of course here we won't have arrows or torch . But would be fun if we could shoot any light source , and see the ennemy come investigate (which make the AI seem actually smart) and you can sneak behind them .

 

[Nikola_Nesic]

I did play Thief but he was Stealth oriented game and combat was swing left swing right, it was never meant to be use all the time, since again stealth oriented game you get in take item you need and get out with out alarm or guard to see you and so on

 

[AlexiaRevan]

I did play Thief but he was Stealth oriented game and combat was swing left swing right, it was never meant to be use all the time, since again stealth oriented game you get in take item you need and get out with out alarm or guard to see you and so on

yes it was .

But one can take stuff from a game without going all copy paste though .

 

[Nikola_Nesic]

I didn't say they can't take stuff, but all thief gameplay elements was there to make stealth as much as possible, not to have great combat like i say combat in thief was just there if you fuck up and one guard is fighting you ok you can be done if more come that is end .

 

[AlexiaRevan]

look , even in stealth . You aren't just sneaking around unless you are playing a game that doesn't let you fight .

But there are games where you can stealth and still kill . Assassin creed serie was all about that . Even in Mass effect the infiltrator could sneak , sit and then shoot .

If in cyberpunk we can stealth . Then we can fight and do close combat as we stealth . I really don't see the issue .

 

[Nikola_Nesic]

In Mass Effect you can run from enemy to enemy and do melee attack take cover do some takedown run from cover to cover do again melee attack.

Sure if you can play stealth nice and good but i would not like that melee combat and melee playthrough be possible only if you do just stealth and nothing eles.

 

[m4x1u]

Considering FPP only POV:

Great melee combat IMO is Kingdom Comeeliverance. That stuff is awesome on a controller (but shooting from a controller sucks) and really reflex & tactically engaging. Also, very immversie. Still, I don't expect anything as good in CP2077 (can I be surprised?).
I've enjoyed shooting in Metro 2033-34 series or in PUBG (gun shots differ in terms of caliber, velocity etc).
For stealth Deus Ex:HR (takedowns!), Metro series (knife takedown!), Dishonored - to name a few.

So CDPR has a loot of good sources for mechanics to look into, the question is - how will they make it blend

 

[Nikola_Nesic]

Melee combat in Kingdom Come only work when you dual some one with more enemy it go bad really fast plus combat there is human on human, slow and not so fun little better then Skyrim sure still not great.

In Cyberpunk 2077 most enemy will have some augments plus you can comper weapon from middle age with sci-fi stuff.

I know Shadowrun is turn base game but melee there was fun and good, people compere Cyberpunk most with Deus Ex but in fact Shadowrun is much more close to Cyberpunk setting i mean original Cyberpunk PnP and lore, just Shadowrun have magice add and elf,dwarfs and so on, point is melee in FPP would not look good move you can do would not look good many complex stuff like spin kick would look really weird in FPP and that is just one thing there are planty more look Witchar combat and what Geralt can do moves and so and imagen them in FPP, it would be really trash or cheap.

 

[Rawls]

I think some of TW3 mechanics would translate well to FPP. Short dodge, hold for long dodge in the direction of your choice (probably not a role ... more of a jump to the side for cover probably). Could also be used as a charge. Parry/block. Heavy attack, quick attack. Certain things certainly from TW3 would probably not work like pirouettes or whirl. They don't have to reinvent melee combat, they've been doing it a long time. They just need to adjust it to fit the setting and perspective.

If you do an attack while in stealth on someone, you perform a stealth take down. Maybe without a weapon it's non lethal, with a weapon it's lethal. Or you could have a stealth grab, followed by another button selection where you can choose lethal or non-lethal. Also we've already seen a slide, which could translate well to melee as well. We've seen V can attack from above. V can double jump (with the appropriate tech it seems).

I wonder if we'll be able to throw weapons? I doubt it. It would be funny to be able the throw a gun at someone though after we run out of ammo. I suppose there will need to some way to use ranged weapons as melee weapons too in the appropriate circumstance.

 

[Nikola_Nesic]

Sure you can add many things in FPP and yes Stealth takedowns ok that is normal i mean i don't say that is wrong i just say i would not like that melee combat is to heavy focus just on stealth, and that it is really really hard or imposible to look good in FPP.

Imagen this you sweep some one with your legs and then shoulder bash him and he fly little like two steps in front of you, that would look really cool in TPP in FPP yea ok maybe but not nearly cool like in TPP.

Maybe maybe CDPR do something great but that swing right swing left and x swing we see in demo i fear that is only type of melee we going to have.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

Well, I made this topic and just forgot about Mass Effect Vanguard (even if some idea I did kinda look close, like the "Juggernaut Charge").
So I juste remembered one cool Melee action Andromeda had:
-Jumping and hitting the ground for a big shockwave. Plus this looks cool.

 

[Nikola_Nesic]

Yeah i played vanguard it was best class in Mass Effect biotic charge was really cool good thing to close distance do some melee stuff, in Mass Effect that use element zero that is in your body that use dark energy to manipulated mass of objects or person or transfer it in to raw force.

Some cyber implants can do something like that but again it need to be explain well and to have some sense, i am don't like double jump they show it is really really out of place even with implants, or that slowtime Koresnikov i mean that look like some kinde of drug that triger it or so but again it is really weird and strange, it look more like stop time to me where you stop all fire what you want and all stand still till you let time flow again.

 

[m4x1u]

Sure you can add many things in FPP and yes Stealth takedowns ok that is normal i mean i don't say that is wrong i just say i would not like that melee combat is to heavy focus just on stealth, and that it is really really hard or imposible to look good in FPP.

Imagen this you sweep some one with your legs and then shoulder bash him and he fly little like two steps in front of you, that would look really cool in TPP in FPP yea ok maybe but not nearly cool like in TPP.

Maybe maybe CDPR do something great but that swing right swing left and x swing we see in demo i fear that is only type of melee we going to have.

Well, they could do it exactly the way Deus EX:HR had it - you're FPP all the time except when doing melee takedowns - that's when the came switched from eyes to TPP to show off cool moves. I could happily live with that

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

Well, they could do it exactly the way Deus EX:HR had it - you're FPP all the time except when doing melee takedowns - that's when the came switched from eyes to TPP to show off cool moves. I could happily live with that

Actually the problem is that it's not really melee, just a way to automatically kill people when stealthy.
The problems is that you won't always be stealthy, and nothing force melee fights to be plain and blands like some subpar gameplay, and that's the point about finding cool things to do about melee fights.

And I really hope the dev' can read that: don't make melee gameplay subpar to shooter gameplay, there is tons of things than can be made to make it fun, so just take the time to do it.

 

[doolydeath]

Pure melee in fpp should have movement advantage as the appeal imo, damage and different attacks could be determined by the direction you're moving in and where V's positioned. Best example would be something like dark messiah or dishonored in terms of feel, except even more mobility maybe..

Not a fan of execution cutscenes or reliance on switching stances, stuff like that in first person ruins the flow for me.