Real or Memorex - The Mechanics Debate Thread

[DAlexanderNYC]

I do not think FPP is a major issue, there are several good first person stealth games. Including classics like the first Thief from 1998. But I am also not sure if traditional stealth gameplay will be a major element, since there is apparently no stealth meter of any sort on the HUD (maybe it requires specific cyberware, though). I do not recall if the enemies have any "suspicious" state either, where they did not fully detect the player's character.

Remember, the game is not finished. It's definitely plausible the devs can implement some type of indicator over the enemies' head which signals their awareness to your presence. Hopefully in one of the next gameplay reveals they emphasize a stealthy approach.

 

[RLKing1969]

Gotta love it.

People complaining about NPC AI from a look at an early alpha demo that goes out of it's way to say "WORK IN PROGRESS".

Right! Some people would complain if you hung them with a new rope...Wait...I would complain about that.

 

[Mikasa_Germanota]

I don't need them to be super smart.

Only dynamic and diverse enough so I don't end up winning every fight with :
Enemies hide behind cover->player slides and uses reflex booster, rinse repeat for entire game. ( yes, even F.E.A.R was guilty of this...good AI goes only so far).

Enemy hacker who can mess up with your vision and targeting, while boosting capabilities of his allies.
Engineer who controls a small number of drones, with different functions.
Walrunner/Cyberninja who stalks you from the walls and always tries to flank you.
Lightning fast solo who puts pressure on player, zig zags with fast dodge, has all those smooth movement options they've shown. Techie that covers the place with smart traps and uses whole range of gadgets.
Tank with a shield who rushes and protects fallen allies. And a hundred other options.

They could create really great system here, combining fast pace and precision of a shooter with enemy diversity/encounter composition you usually find in more tactical ( rpg) game...and there is no reason not to do it, given the setting.

This

 

[Heart Of Dawn]

It is somewhat harder to hide in FPP as it is difficult to really see where you are exactly in the game world.

Thief did this well. The use of audio (ambient, footsteps, and enemy voices), light and shadow (especially with the light gem), level design (it was clear which alcoves were big enough to hide in and which weren't) and gadgets like the remote camera, it was pretty straight forward to learn were you should and shouldn't be.

 

[jervi]

Stealth.... in a genre with thermographic cybereyes, tons of cameras, microphones, sound-recognition software running on cheap hardware... I sense that it'll be a bit tougher than in other games. Not impossible, but it'll be different from your old-school "Move slowly in the shadows and you're golden!" stealth from other games set in worlds with less technology.

 

[L4dftw]

If there's a stealthy approach that we can take, I'm taking it. Maybe hacking can play a role? Watch Dogs style with the hacking of cameras and such?

 

[GW84]

Dual-wielding pistols without some specialized 'wares does little except to trade accuracy for double ROF and ammo capacity. Running on skills instead of wires, it might work out at the sort of close ranges that most combat IRL takes place at (under 15 meters), but even then only against one target at a time. If you have any need to aim though, then your only choices are 'wares or "Hollywood magic".... and the latter is rare in cyberpunk.

For melee though, dual-wielding is actually a cornerstone of many styles. If you went back in time and ran across Miyamoto Musashi, would you tell him that dual-wielding is silly and ineffective? If so, can I have your stuff after he proves you wrong?

Its true that many martial arts use dual wielding, but these mostly dualwield batons or knives as an extention of its users arms and hands. Some fencing styles use a parrying dagger for defence in the off hand.

Dual wielding swords and the like is highly impractical as you can easily cut yourself or block your own blade. The few that mastered the art considered it useless outside a duel (open field, one opponent and surprising your opponent could outweigh concerns about practicality). There is even some debate if Miyamoto Musashi actually dual wielded his blades, as his statements could also mean a swordsman should be ambidextrous.

But thats too much thought about practicality for a game with tracking bullets, cyborgs and such. Like I said, style over substance, as it is visually cool.

 

[L4dftw]

As long as it isn't the kinda crappy wielding of dual pistols that L4D had, I'm in.

Granted, that game is almost 10 years old now but still.

I'm trying to think of a game that pulled it off pretty well that isn't L4D or BL2 with the Gunzerker class, but I'm coming up blank. Is there any?

 

[jervi]

Its true that many martial arts use dual wielding, but these mostly dualwield batons or knives as an extention of its users arms and hands. Some fencing styles use a parrying dagger for defence in the off hand.

Dual wielding swords and the like is highly impractical as you can easily cut yourself or block your own blade. The few that mastered the art considered it useless outside a duel (open field, one opponent and surprising for your opponent could outweigh concerns about practicality). There is even some debate is Miyamoto Musashi actually dual wielded his blades, as his statements could also mean a swordsman should be ambidextrous.

But thats too much thought about practicality for a game with tracking bullets, cyborgs and such. Like I said, style over substance, as it is visually cool.

Yeah, it is easier when one (or both) weapon(s) is Wakizashi/baton-sized or smaller. While some believe that Musashi dual-wielded katanas, most of what I've seen points towards him using Daisho, not unlike a Western European fencer using Rapier+main-gauche. And I find it easier to believe that the founder of Niten Ichi-Ryu, the most famous school of Nitojutsu, used an off-hand wakizashi than I do believing that he was merely talking about ambidexterity.

On the other hand, with chipped skills and cyberarms, I suppose dual-wielding Claymores or Nodachis wouldn't be too farfetched compared to some of the stuff from the Chromebooks.

 

[Skipper_1O1]

One of the games that has interesting dual wielding system is Wet. Although the game itself didn't receive much of a positive reaction, it made quite a progress in the duel wielding system. In my opinion, there is no point of making dual wielding unless you can aim at two different targets at the same time, and that's what Wet accomplished back in 2009. However, I guess that Cyberpunk is in a late development stage to consider a technique similar to Wet's dual wielding gameplay.

 

[Odinsauge]

Melee can work in FPP, Skyrim showed that, but it is not even close as good as in TPP.
Skyrim had partly different animations for FPP combat, like the swirl attack for dual wielding one handed weapons. Also I preferred TPP as you can easily loose sight of your enemy.

 

[Nithing]

To my mind in an fpp game with a focus on guns melee combat should be quick and deadly, the challenge should come from having to get in close enough to use you weapon whilst sustaining minimal damage. I don't want have ran though a hail of bullets only to stand there waving a mantis blade in someone's face for 10 seconds until they run out of health and rag doll to the floor.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

I don't want have ran though a hail of bullets only to stand there waving a mantis blade in someone's face for 10 seconds until they run out of health and rag doll to the floor.

Well, considering that the game have bosses you'll probably have to...

 

[Nithing]

Well, considering that the game have bosses you'll probably have to...

That's true, though I probably won't do a melee build anyway.