Regarding CD Projekt's Two-Faced Behaviour

[andr01d]

I don't think that last one requires an explanation. Anyway, after all that he caps the whole thing off with the "that's how we treat piracy" line. This is why that line applies to all of the things that he had said—first he made his general points about the direction the industry needed to head in, then elaborated on how his company was doing each of those things, affirming that that was the method they were using with the last line.

So, well I presume there can be connections made between the parts of his speech (though I still fail to see them somehow, my bad most possibly). But maybe CDP wasn't aware of (all) those intricate details as well because they also aren't natively English speaking?
So yeah, maybe CDP should clarify this a little...

Plenty of people have tried even extreme variants of what they're doing and it's done nothing to curb piracy at all. The only people it acts as a deterrent to are those who have been personally targeted by it, and it's impossible to target even a significant chunk of those who pirated the game. This is a bit off-topic, though—reread the second thread or just Google "RIAA" to see how these tactics don't stop piracy.

Nah, I didn't say to take extreme measures either. Doing nothing doesn't help and only doing extreme stuff wouldn't do much good either. But somewhere there in the middle lies a good path. It's to only take such actions that don't hurt the good and paying customers and make it a little harder or a little more expensive for the pirates to get away with their deeds.
And I still believe that CDP chose this way by getting rid of DRM and now just fining pirates to show that it's not so easy to get away with pirating. By that no honest customers are hurt and for some pirates it might get very expensive. A win-win situation if ever I've seen one.
So for me CDP are doing great and as I said many times now, I don't care about what they said but about what they do.

If a location on GOG is anything to go by, DelightfulMcCoy is also German.

Ah... sorry. I didn't know (I'm not on GOG forums).
But then again I still fail to see why it should be called shady or exploiting.

So you're saying that because some unscrupulous individuals steal games, that's a legitimate reason to be dishonest to paying customers? That's throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Nope, what I was saying is: If you pirated any game yourself you are in no position to complain about CDP loosing your trust because you kind of lost their trust even before. -- You may now call it morally even.
Which means for me: As I pirated games myself in the past I may not complain even if I would feel disappointed by what they said.

 

[Kindo.824]

But then again I still fail to see why it should be called shady or exploiting.

Well, it's a matter of definition, I suppose. It is a fact, though, that CDP are exploiting German law in order to get to those specific, alleged pirates, in Germany. The term shady is another matter. While that choice of word might be misleading to some, some might feel that it is a bit ethically dubious to take advantage of the current infringement in human integrity and privacy that is happening in Germany, because this means only they are being targeted by these counter-measurements of CD Projekt's. It's an awful feeling being singled out this way, which is why I am assuming it would feel a bit less awful if you are at least not alone; that this is happening to alleged pirates in all of Europe, for example.

Nope, what I was saying is: If you pirated any game yourself you are in no position to complain about CDP loosing your trust because you kind of lost their trust even before. -- You may now call it morally even.
Which means for me: As I pirated games myself in the past I may not complain even if I would feel disappointed by what they said.

Well, yeah, being a hypocrite is bad, I'll give you that, but that is exactly what the kind of offence CD Projekt has been proven guilty of (at least in my book) when they are going out in PC Gamer to talk nicely about how little they worry about pirates and how it's not worth their time to chase them down, all the while they are sending thousands of threatening letters out to suspected pirates in Germany. Again, it's not the fact that they are trying to make these people pay up or go to court that's made me lose trust in the company; it's the fact that the CEO of the company said the things he said in this recent interview, presenting himself and CD Projekt as lenient and almost friendly towards pirates, even though the hunt for pirates was well under way. That is what has caused this loss of trust.

 

[andr01d]

Well, it's a matter of definition, I suppose. It is a fact, though, that CDP are exploiting German law in order to get to those specific, alleged pirates, in Germany. The term shady is another matter. While that choice of word might be misleading to some, some might feel that it is a bit ethically dubious to take advantage of the current infringement in human integrity and privacy that is happening in Germany, because this means only they are being targeted by these counter-measurements of CD Projekt's. It's an awful feeling being singled out this way, which is why I am assuming it would feel a bit less awful if you are at least not alone; that this is happening to alleged pirates in all of Europe, for example.

Yeah, it may be seen that way. But CDP stated that they were only able to do it only in Germany because in no other (European) country they could secure the accuracy of their methods. Thus I deem it good that they are only doing it in Germany and may blame other countries for not having laws that allow CDP to act the same there.

You could say: Well then they shouldn't do it anywhere. - But to that I'd say: Better do it only here (in Germany) where their methods are least likely to fail than do nothing.

Well, yeah, being a hypocrite is bad, I'll give you that, but that is exactly what the kind of offence CD Projekt has been proven guilty of (at least in my book) when they are going out in PC Gamer to talk nicely about how little they worry about pirates and how it's not worth their time to chase them down, all the while they are sending thousands of threatening letters out to suspected pirates in Germany. Again, it's not the fact that they are trying to make these people pay up or go to court that's made me lose trust in the company; it's the fact that the CEO of the company said the things he said in this recent interview, presenting himself and CD Projekt as lenient and almost friendly towards pirates, even though the hunt for pirates was well under way. That is what has caused this loss of trust.

I totally agree that given your interpretation of his words it certainly looks the way you describe it.
But then again, if you lost their trust first by pirating games in the past, I morally believe you are in no right to accuse them of loosing your trust now. - You did the "crime" first.
That's my view. I have to apply it on myself first. So I got no moral rights (according to my belief) to accuse them.
For you, well, I don't know if you committed any crimes so I am in no right to judge you (or anyone for that matter).

~Disclaimer: I am not accusing you or anyone of pirating games. I am only stating my beliefs on morals in this case illustrating it for you with the above possibility. I could very well use my own case here to show what I mean (as I already did) but I'm not certain that everyone will understand it this way.~

 

[227]

But maybe CDP wasn't aware of (all) those intricate details as well because they also aren't natively English speaking?

It's incredibly unlikely that something like that would fall together by accident. Besides, chances are that everything he said was run through PR people in the company to eliminate the possibility of an accident like that.

Nah, I didn't say to take extreme measures either. Doing nothing doesn't help and only doing extreme stuff wouldn't do much good either. But somewhere there in the middle lies a good path. It's to only take such actions that don't hurt the good and paying customers and make it a little harder or a little more expensive for the pirates to get away with their deeds.

If the extreme version of what they're doing proved ineffective and expensive, what's the point of taking a lighter (and likely even more expensive due to having to individually check each person) approach? As a deterrent? We apparently weren't even supposed to find out about this, since all the other companies supposedly do the same thing and I imagine NDAs are in play to keep everything all hush-hush. None of it makes any sense, because it seems like a lot of work and money just to surreptitiously irritate a couple thousand pirates (out of an alleged 4.5 million), so do they think that inconveniencing a couple thousand people from one country will somehow magically make a dent in worldwide piracy? I'm inclined to give them more credit than that. /offtopic

Nope, what I was saying is: If you pirated any game yourself you are in no position to complain about CDP loosing your trust because you kind of lost their trust even before. -- You may now call it morally even.
Which means for me: As I pirated games myself in the past I may not complain even if I would feel disappointed by what they said.

Lying to everyone because some people pirate isn't a legitimate excuse. If that's the case, then are those who have never pirated but have been lied to anyway free to go off and pirate for the first time? Then everything would be morally even, right? No, of course that's not acceptable. Maybe my definition of morality differs, but I believe that countering someone's wrong by doing wrong back just makes both of them immoral.

 

[original182]

I really cannot fathom how some people can use strong words like "two faced" and "lying" over something like this. This is just being overly nitpicky and over-exaggeration.

All of a sudden, a company that has faithfully provided games without DRM, free updates, staying true to the PC fan base, not being afraid to push boundaries (inclusion of controversial content like sex, violence, racism, etc) is now as bad as the evil EA and Activision empires simply because they "lied" about going after pirates.

Despite numerous goodwill gestures by Red Projekt, apparently the latest move by them going after pirates is enough to cause numerous customers to lose trust in them. And now some people are "genuinely worried" of the energy and expenses involved in those lawsuits, that it will somehow make their future games not as good? Are you kidding me, now you are worried about their financial planning?

My mind just cannot grasp the route that some people's line of thinking takes them. How they arrived at the point where Red Projekt is suddenly not worthy of trust is really beyond me.

By simply looking at the big picture, at the very worst, Red Projekt merely CHANGED their minds. Maybe piracy is not as low as they originally predicted, so they took action. That's it. That's all there is to it. To now say they are lying, thus implying they had intention to deceive their customers, is too much.

Which is why I feel this is less about Red Projekt, and more about software piracy in general. Them going after pirates is a very trivial matter.

 

[227]

By simply looking at the big picture, at the very worst, Red Projekt merely CHANGED their minds. Maybe piracy is not as low as they originally predicted, so they took action. That's it. That's all there is to it. To now say they are lying, thus implying they had intention to deceive their customers, is too much.

Look at the dates. They said those things about incentive and not bothering with pirates while chasing down pirates. That requires more than them just changing their minds because the two were happening at the same time, hence the rants about lying. You can call it whatever you want, but to say that your company treats an issue in one way while secretly acting in opposition to that statement is to render said statement untrue.

Also keep in mind that since apparently everyone in the industry is doing this and we haven't heard about it there are almost certainly non-disclosure agreements involved. It's not exactly a stretch of the imagination to surmise that he said that assuming that no one would break said NDAs, which would mean that the entire point of saying such a thing would be to deceive his customers since they wouldn't know any better than to take his word for it.

Also, it's CD Projekt, as in the parent company. RED doesn't seem to be involved.

 

[andr01d]

~Diclaimer: This is off topic, hence the spoiler.~

Spoiler

If the extreme version of what they're doing proved ineffective and expensive, what's the point of taking a lighter (and likely even more expensive due to having to individually check each person) approach? As a deterrent? We apparently weren't even supposed to find out about this, since all the other companies supposedly do the same thing and I imagine NDAs are in play to keep everything all hush-hush. None of it makes any sense, because it seems like a lot of work and money just to surreptitiously irritate a couple thousand pirates (out of an alleged 4.5 million), so do they think that inconveniencing a couple thousand people from one country will somehow magically make a dent in worldwide piracy? I'm inclined to give them more credit than that. /offtopic

You make it sound as if every action against piracy is wrong because it costs too much. But not taking actions may even be more wrong. So I only say, as long as it doesn't take away that much money to actually damage the process of making good games and keeping customer support up, as long as CDP does continue with the good work they delivered with TW1 and TW2, I'd let them persecute some pirates.
And does it really work what they are doing. Well I know some people who really have almost no money to spend on gaming, if they are to fear legal actions from CDP (or others) demanding hundreds of Euros they will surely think twice about pirating games. Maybe they will just find better ways to secure their IP to make themselves invisible but maybe they will stop pirating altogether. And that's the outcome CDP wanted to have, isn't it?

Lying to everyone because some people pirate isn't a legitimate excuse. If that's the case, then are those who have never pirated but have been lied to anyway free to go off and pirate for the first time? Then everything would be morally even, right? No, of course that's not acceptable. Maybe my definition of morality differs, but I believe that countering someone's wrong by doing wrong back just makes both of them immoral.

I didn't say this to legitimate their lies (if those were lies in the first place, which obviously is debatable). I said this to make everyone think about themselves whether or not they actually have the right to give such an outcry (of hate even as it may seem) or not. - I checked with my conscience and I feel I don't have the right to personally accuse them of distrustful behavior.

Sure there may be some people out there who didn't do anything bad and still feel lied to. Now those have the right to be a little pissed maybe.

 

[227]

Maybe they will just find better ways to secure their IP to make themselves invisible but maybe they will stop pirating altogether. And that's the outcome CDP wanted to have, isn't it?

Probably the first, or have you forgotten why people moved onto torrents from p2p software like Kazaa and Limewire in the first place? History tends to repeat itself, and the whole thing is a losing battle for CDP. Not because the impact will be negligible (though history indicates that it will), but because the price of that insignificant impact is to move their image closer to that of the archetypal "sue-happy company," something that comes with a significant amount of backlash from even the most loyal of fans. Not all fans, but a far more significant portion of people than will ever be affected by these settlements.

Again, this is off-topic. If you want to discuss this more, go ahead and PM me and we can do it that way to avoid derailing this thread.

I said this to make everyone think about themselves whether or not they actually have the right to give such an outcry (of hate even as it may seem) or not.

This doesn't really seem relevant, and generally speaking I don't believe that one's misdoings require giving CDP carte blanche to mislead as they see fit (again, two wrongs don't make a right), but I'll try to be as clear about this as possible: I haven't wronged this company in any way, ever. Of course I have the right to be offended when a company I've shown nothing but honesty to offers less than that in return.

 

[andr01d]

So you are pissed because of two things:

1. You think CDP embarked on a mission that's bound to fail (and so the off topic is kind of relevant). And you fear that they may become like other developing companies whom you don't like.

2. You feel lied to.


Well, after all this debate I can't really argue about the being lied to part. That's just how you feel about what CDP said. I feel different and I can't understand how you could feel lied to, but it's not for me to argue about your personal feelings.

But toward the first part I could argue.
But I won't do that here and now because as stated above: This would be a little off topic. - So only when kindo and the mods allow us to continue with this here, I will continue writing in this thread.

So for now I'm withdrawing from this discussion.
(Opening a new thread is not an option because it would require a topic that has a high potential of becoming a rage and hate thread about piracy in general.)

 

[pomor]

Someone is going after pirates, so pirates rage. What a supprise.

 

[Garrison72]

CDPR gave lots of air time to their principle philosophy - that is, no DRM and a great price. Then they went and followed through with a statement that got very little exposure: they would pursue pirates with lawyers and fines.

If you were both an idiot and selfish, you pirated a game from a company that cut its teeth in the beginning by competing with pirates. These guys live in the land of pirates. They know all about piracy. What the fuck did you all expect? For them to claw their way this far so they could let pirates piss their profits away?

It's a game you guys. You want to pirate go right ahead. But don't get all philosophical when a pirate gets caught. I sure as hell wouldn't

 

[DelighfulMcCoy]

It's a game you guys. You want to pirate go right ahead. But don't get all philosophical when a pirate gets caught. I sure as hell wouldn't

Duh! It's not about getting caught. I own the retail and digital editions of TWEE and the digital edition of TW2, I preordered and never downloaded it any other way. And yet I get a bad taste in my gut, when I see them wasting their resources like that. And also, since they are living in the land of the pirates, as you put it, the land where the game likely got pirated the most, why don't they start cleaning house in front of their own door?

 

[gregski]

And also, since they are living in the land of the pirates, as you put it, the land where the game likely got pirated the most, why don't they start cleaning house in front of their own house?

Yeah, as slimgrin mentioned (it's also in the interview with CDP's CEO) they started their company in the 90's when there wasn't even copyright law in Poland. So yeah, pirates were their competition, as in those dark times people here weren't torrenting games - internet was no that widely adopted - they were buying illegal copies from pirates for maybe 10-20 % of the legal copy price.

EDIT: I just wanted to add something that might not be relevant for you, but I highly respect CD Projekt (not Red this time) for what they did for the legal gaming market in the "land of the pirates" (how you call it). They did the spade work, had the perseverance to go through difficult times and finally evolved into a healthy company that not only distributes, but also makes games like The Witcher.

They clearly said why they are doing this in Germany not in Poland - because German law grants them access to data which makes them 100% (ok, 99.9%) sure that they are targeting a person that pirated the game.

And I wouldn't be so sure about The Witcher 2 being pirated the most in Poland - our Polish pride wouldn't let us do this (in most cases).

 

[Zanderat]

Personal opinion or no, when it is said in an official forum like PC Gamer, it becomes PR and a way to convey a certain image of whatever company he is representing. My point is that CD Projekt was one of the few (very, very few) companies I felt I could trust not to do stuff like this; i.e. say one thing to make them look good, then do the opposite the next day. The term I used was that they are acting 'two-faced' and it is one of the worst things you can do to someone like me, when you want to earn my trust and respect. Honesty is something I value extremely highly, in this world built on lies and deceit.

I truly don't understand the issue. They release a game DRM free and continue to support it. Given that fact, they are most certainly entitled to enforce and protect their copyright. If you didn't steal the game, why on earth should this bother you?

Again TW2 is DRM free. I fail to see how is CDPR is now the equivalent of Bioware. Honestly, people need to grow up and stop defending thieves and pirates.

 

[227]

1. You think CDP embarked on a mission that's bound to fail (and so the off topic is kind of relevant). And you fear that they may become like other developing companies whom you don't like.

No, I wasn't pissed about any of that. The lies, sure, but not this part. I was concerned because of how unpopular such techniques are and the fact that they'd reflect badly on CDP (and CDPR, by association), but that was because this is potentially bad for their interests and image. Call it a personality quirk, but I can't concern myself with any person/company that lies to me so now my interest in that particular facet of this is purely out of curiosity.

If you didn't steal the game, why on earth should this bother you?

This has been covered and re-covered. I don't understand why so many people are having trouble understanding that some people don't enjoy being lied to. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not what they're doing to pirates affects us.

Again TW2 is DRM free. I fail to see how is CDPR is now the equivalent of Bioware. Honestly, people need to grow up and stop defending thieves and pirates.

Three things. One, there's no need to be so condescending. Two, is it really so hard to understand that some people consider dishonesty as bad as DRM? Third, having a problem with said dishonesty doesn't mean that we're defending pirates. No one in this thread has supported piracy in any way, so for you to make that assumption simply because you don't understand or agree with the sentiments expressed is incredibly insulting.

 

[dragoonlordz]

Listen 227 and Kindo we get it, your pages and pages of repeating same thing over and over again...

"I don't like being lied to (perceived or otherwise)."
"I don't like being lied to (perceived or otherwise)."
"I don't like being lied to (perceived or otherwise)."
"I don't like being lied to (perceived or otherwise)."

"There's an element of risk in 'method' used aka 99% as opposed to 100% pursuing pirates (thieves)."
"There's an element of risk in 'method' used aka 99% as opposed to 100% pursuing pirates (thieves)."
"There's an element of risk in 'method' used aka 99% as opposed to 100% pursuing pirates (thieves)."
"There's an element of risk in 'method' used aka 99% as opposed to 100% pursuing pirates (thieves)."

Getting quite tired of your constant complaining about the same issue over and over and over. If you so offended feel free to leave because your not changing anyone's opinions. Your just repeating the same thing over and over again aka venting. Problem is your venting has gone on for a great deal of days and if your that angry then why not stop hanging out on here, if do not wish to buy anymore games from CDP-R that will be your loss as the millions of rest of us will continue to support CDP-R plus the millions of new customers once the 360 version is completed will all make up for your loss.

This thread itself is a dead end because nothing new has been said in days, it's the same few people yourself included saying the same thing over and over. You should also stop +1'ing your own comments to give impression that your opinion is widely held by others too (see I did it too to prove point). Most of CDP-R's customers and fans of both the games they made and the developer themselves will be here long after you are done venting, this number will vastly increase once they release the 360 version so that console players who do not own a high end PC will join the ranks of fans of CDP-R work and work ethics. While a few others have jumped on your bandwagon your still a truly tiny group of very vocal people but tiny all the same, so make a decision and quit moaning of either 1) continue to support CDP-R or 2) leave.

You can log in every day and -1 this comment to your hearts content (as it resets to allow another days rating allowance) but make a decision and quit moaning. Either continue to support or leave and the rest of us plus millions of new fans upon 360 release will support them in your place. I am pretty sure any continued comments from you will be the same repeat of the same thing you (very few) people have said for pages now, so this thread is already dead and your just beating a dead horse. Man up and make your choice stay or leave, support or don't but quit throwing toys out your pram and repeating same thing for pages and in response to every single comment. Yes I do 'get' the irony of my avatar.

 

[227]

Getting quite tired of your constant complaining about the same issue over and over and over.

I've responded to comments when I'd much rather be done with this thread because of people like you putting words in my mouth and completely misconstruing my arguments. Did I say I was boycotting CDPR's games? No, I didn't. Sorry that you don't like this thread, but no one is forcing you to click on it.

You should also stop +1'ing your own comments to give impression that your opinion is widely held by others too (see I did it too to prove point).

Except for the part where we're not actually doing that. People who share our opinions are +1ing the posts, and I'd be more than happy to take screencaps to prove it to you, if necessary (edit: I did just that and made screenshots of every post of mine in this entire thread with +rep on it while either editing or with the edit bar on top to prove that I'm the one logged in). You can only hit +1 or -1 once per post (ever) anyway, though your admission than you're abusing the rep system is refreshingly honest.

As for your "if you have a problem, leave" attitude, I'm here because I like the people. Hell, I like CDPR and all the people from it that I've met. The problem here is with the parent company, so I don't see why it'd be necessary to leave when this is a forum for CDPR's game, not CDP in general.

I'm trying as hard as possible to show you respect despite your unwillingness to show me the same courtesy, though I will say that you're doing no one any favors by being as blatantly rude as you are.

 

[andr01d]

No, I wasn't pissed about any of that. The lies, sure, but not this part. I was concerned because of how unpopular such techniques are and the fact that they'd reflect badly on CDP (and CDPR, by association), but that was because this is potentially bad for their interests and image. Call it a personality quirk, but I can't concern myself with any person/company that lies to me so now my interest in that particular facet of this is purely out of curiosity.

Alright, I'm done arguing with you. I tried to understand your motives, I tried to reason and I tried to give you possibilities and look what you may think about the whole matter then. - You dismissed every thought I offered as not possible or not the matter here. Sure, sometimes you were right and my thoughts were a little too far fetched but still no matter what I said your single answer was: I don't like feeling lied to.
If it truly only is about the lying then I will voice my opinion of that matter here once and for all: This is childish!

I can understand you feeling hurt and disappointed because you put your trust into someones' actions and now it turns out they did something completely different from what you thought all along. But what you do here goes a little too far.

My reasons to think that way:
1. You were (I suppose) no personal friends or relatives with anyone at CDP. So why bother being lied to? I mean you are not that close to have the right to feel personally insulted by anything they do.
2. People lie to you. That's life. Deal with it.
3. You feel hurt because you praised them as the one and only dev company that doesn't bother with pirates and now it turns out they aren't. That's somehow understandable. - But given the fact that they seem to have a history of waging wars against pirates (this I didn't know myself, but then again I don't care for this that much as long as their games are good) it shouldn't surprise you. So maybe some more research would have been in order before you got all pissed.
4. CDP never asked you to be all supportive-like and wage a holy war for their cause of not fighting pirates. They never even asked you to put your trust with them. They only asked you to buy their games if you deemed them good. This you did and apparently you thought (and still think) their games to be good.
The support for not fighting pirates was done on your part and only on your part. They never asked for it. - So now don't complain if they don't come crawling back to you apologizing and begging you to support them again. They don't need that kind of support apparently. So don't be disappointed if they turn you down by doing something you wouldn't believe they'd do and don't care if you are pissed. You can't demand their gratefulness and you can't demand them acting solely on your beliefs.
You are no stockholder (again: I suppose) so you have no rights to question their course of actions and demand a change or even an apology. - You are a customer. Your rights are to buy their stuff if you want to support them or don't buy their stuff if you don't like them for any reason but don't think CDP to change its course because you feel hurt.


Again: I don't deny you the right to feel angry and hurt because it seems to you that they lied to you. But they way you write about that matter makes me (and possibly some others) think you condemn CDP to be as bad as those pirates they try to fine because CDP lied to you in your eyes.

 

[Kindo.824]

I follow the replies posted in this topic with great interest, but I generally don't feel that I have neither the time nor the energy to get involved. Sometimes, however, certain posts catch my interest specifically, and I decide to reply to a few things here and there, anyway. Most of the time, however, I'm just reading, and of course I click the rep-button(s) when I come across something that someone has written, that is particularly well-written and formulated, and whose opinion I might agree with (it's not my fault that 227 carries a voice of reason and form of articulation that I connect with); likewise if someone is particularly out of line, erroneous, or offensive in some way, in my opinion.

Dragoonlordz: You, sir, are venting. Couple that with a generally rude and obnoxious tone, and I can't possibly take what you are saying seriously.

 

[tommy5761]

Let`s not turn this thread into one for personal attacks on anyone . Everyone has his or her own opinion on the topic and whether or not you agree or disagree is of no consequence one way or the other . I don`t think opinions are likely to be changed anytime soon . So stick to the topic at hand with no insults or attacks to other users .