And that is a perfectly valid opinionslimgrin said:
And I'm backing out of the thread again now. I still don't expect to change anyone else's views, nor will my own change.
And I'm backing out of the thread again now. I still don't expect to change anyone else's views, nor will my own change.
Sorry Dragon Bird, but I simply don't see where CDPR deceived anyone. They said very clearly what they would do and they did it. BTW, I can play the game offline...not sure where you're coming from with claiming otherwise.
I wonder if Dragonbird even remember's that CDP-R were taken to court and sued because CDP-R removed DRM in first place. It's funny I don't see Bioware or Bethesda doing same with ME3 or Skyrim fighting on behalf of customers in courts and their respective DRM's yet bet he/she will probably bought/buy them titles.
Slim is right in sense I too do not need to be connected to the internet to play TW2, I run the game exe instead of launcher and runs fine even with my router disconnected.Tommy said:
What you have to remember is Dragonbird said just now he refuses to buy games that require needing to be online to play. This would also include for the most part most of steams titles (if not all) including Skyrim which I recently picked up few weeks back even if doesn't need you to stay online 24/7 you have to be online to patch/to register/to check it's 100% version ready. So I guess he does not use steam in first place going by his original comment to begin with in which case no, he does not need to be online to play. If so offended by online playing then I advise he stops using steam and buys a retail copy which does not require being online to play given his stance on refusing to buy online requirement games.
I also have to question whether he owns Skyrim which too requires the need to be online because of steam, whether he will buy Diablo3 and whether he will buy SWTOR or ME3. Even if you are right Tommy and that there is an option inside steam to turn on playing offline, he still doesn't need to be online to play in that situation either of which CDPR still haven't lied because you can play without even being connected to the internet using retail copies which they fought for the "legitimate" customers in courts because they were sued for it's removal. If choose to use online client like steam which does require need to be online then he went back on his own words and bought from a place which goes against what he said he doesn't do. Of which I consider it silly to then blame the developer when he chose to use a version of game from somewhere which breaks his own promise.
I said wouldn't comment in this thread anymore but I had to agree with slim because slim is right you do not need to be online to play TW2, if choose to use steam and steam requires you to be online that's his own fault for not buying retail copy. I'll leave it at that because this thread deserves to fade away as I consider it nothing more than a four man/woman self-righteous vendetta thread and because it's just same four people that have spammed the pages saying same things for 7 pages, it doesn't deserve to be continued imho, but that's not for me to decide I have to concede just ones like you Tommy and other mods make that decision.
They were taken to court and sued because of a contract disagreement regarding the licencing for the Xbox version, i.e. straight commercial matters, and because of a particular kind of DRM on the retail copies that affected performance, was unmanageable when the game released, and that would cost money to put back. Let's not do the deflection bit, shall we?Dragoonlordz said:
Nor is this anything about the Steam offline mode, which works perfectly. It's about the "call home" in the game launcher, code included in the game by CDP, not Valve. Code that can be bypassed, but which still exists in the real world.
Skyrim does not require you to be online to run the game. It requires you to be online to register (which is acceptable) and to do updates (which is unavoidable). Again, let's keep to facts.
The fact is I can disconnect my internet card and still play TW2...what am I missing here? I can play TW2 fully offline.
Of course. That doesn't change the fact that the launcher has "phone home" code in it, nor does it change the fact that the introduction of that code caused problems for legitimate users, both Steam and non-Steam.Zanderat said:
When was it introduced? Or was it there to begin with? you know more about this stuff than me. Are you implying this might be their pirate bait?
Consider it a check for updates with same principle of in you would need to connect to the internet to look for updates. Which you said you have no problem doing on games. As many of us shown you do not need to use the launcher to play and do not need to be online to play either.dragonbird said:
On a side note I would suggest when you disagree with something I said then claim I am deflecting, that you don't go and then admit what I said was true with your comment and I quote "and because of a particular kind of DRM on the retail copies" when I actually said "sued because CDP-R removed DRM in first place" which was the publishers wishes to inflict DRM on customers which CDP-R said no and had it removed hence taken to court by the publishers. The second part of the lawsuit was trying to switch publishers but was a separate issue completely. Removing DRM and removing a particular kind of DRM is still removing DRM.
I'm suggesting the *possibility*, in which case it's a counter-argument to the statements that CDP's actions haven't affected legitimate customers, and to the statements that CDP is somehow better than other gaming companies regarding DRM.slimgrin said:
The bare facts, which I don't think can be argued against:
- Version 2.0 introduced a "phone home" mechanism in launcher.exe. It connects to their servers whenever you run the game.
- This is still present in 2.1
- There is a legitimate reason for 2.0 to phone home because of the new function to post Arena scores.
- For a number of customers, the "phone home" in the launcher caused a problem because, for some reason, the launcher hangs if a) there is no internet connection, or b ) you have an internet connection but the Witcher servers used for this are down. The result is that if a player uses the launcher to start the game, the player is unable to play offline.
- The requirement, and the problem caused, are not related to whether you bought retail, GoG or Steam. There are posts here, in the GoG forums, and in the Steam forums regarding it.
- Version 2.1 changelog stated that changes had been made to the launcher, but this specific problem still exists.
- CDP have publicly stated that the method used to find the pirates was not based on IP address.
The strong arguments, which I guess some people may dispute, but which I think are definitely valid:
- The problem with offline working can easily be bypassed if you are NOT a Steam user, by running from witcher2.exe instead of the launcher. However, this does not change the basic fact that the code exists in the launcher.
- If you are a Steam user, it can also be bypassed, although it's a little more difficult. This does not mean that it's a Steam issue. The problem is still in the Launcher, not the Steam client.
- The fact that it can be worked round does not mean that it didn't cause problems. The player has to know that the workround exists and as the player probably didn't have a working internet connection when it happened, there will be a delay in getting assistance.
The questionable arguments, that people may easily disagree with:
- Whether or not the mandatory requirement for internet connection is deliberate, or a bug. I don't know. The only thing I know for certain is that if you have an internet connection, it phones home.
- Whether or not this "phone home" is being used for the piracy identification. Again, I don't know, but the fact that they said they're not using IP, and the timing of them going after the pirates makes it seem likely.
The conclusion, my own opinion, which others may or may not agree with:
CDP introduced a "phone home" mechanism in 2.0 which a) meets the definitions of DRM, b ) is probably being used as a way of going after pirates, and c) has an adverse effect on the legitimate usage of the game.
Even if it is only needed to check for updates or upload arena scores. - The fact remains that it could be that CDP uses this code to check for pirates. This could be done easily, the launcher only has to upload the serial keys alongside (which it probably already does to couple the arena scores with the right forum members' profiles). CDP then only has to check if the key is valid. If not then chances are high that there's a pirate on the other side. A simple test.Dragoonlordz said:
And that's the problem dragonbird seems to have (and I feel a little uncomfortable about it, too): It's not about what it's actually used for but about what it could be used for.
And the problem is: Even if it still is a feature for getting updates and uploading scores--when it's used to detect pirates it has to be considered DRM and then CDP lied about the DRM issue.
But I still think it's only used for uploading arena scores and checking for updates. I can completely disable any internet connection I have and still launch the game via the launcher.Dragoonlordz said:
I agree that it greatly smells of DRM but I don't think it really is.
I think this simply is about were exactly you put your trust in a dev company.
I only demand trustworthiness when it comes to making good games and not lying about it, i. e. I really hate it when advertisement make the game look much better than it is in reality.
That's the main reason I didn't like Dragon Age: Origins for. All trailers (they got my attention with the CGI trailers but even the real trailers later were only from cut scenes) suggested the game experience to be different from what I finally got when I bought the game.
Seen from the other side that means I don't care about (even the heaviest and most restricting) DRM as long as the game experience is satisfying, i. e. the game looks good, the content lives up to my expectations and most importantly I am able to run the game without problems. It lets me enjoy Battlefield 3 and now Skyrim without all the agitation about their DRM (origin and steam) found on most gaming forums.
And from my perspective I still like CDP's way of handling DRM best (even if the launcher turns out to be DRM) because it simply affects me (enjoying the game) less than steam (had issues with that, broken game files mostly, but also area code restrictions, i. e. I couldn't activate certain content because I have a German IP address) or origin (I simply hate it that I can't get Dead Space with English voice-over other than by importing it from the UK or US--which costs more money) or this thing from ubisoft (I don't have any personal experience but my brother complained that he couldn't play The Settlers often because the servers were down).
~only typos edited~
I have with Ubisoft (AC2) and yes you can't play when offline. Game checks everytime for your internet connection and it also uses it to save checkpoints online. Same story with Batman AC, but you can choose to play offline and your savegames are on your pc instead than on Windows LIVE server.
if they are going to chase the pirates can i sue them for making me pay additional money to get all the DLCs which they later made free to all people? 'you'll get the mystery merchant only by pre-ordering, you'll get the alchemist set in an issue of a gaming magazine etc'
what about all the promises before the game was released? where is the 'open world'? i can't even get back to Flotsam while i'm in the 2nd chapter... it was also said that after ending a quest i could post the glossary entry to facebook and compare the outcomes with my friends. where is that? major battle improvements done in so called 'version 2.0', while the stability of the games is on a beta level. on a high-end PC i still getting crashed to desktop... never gonna buy the witcher 3
what about all the promises before the game was released? where is the 'open world'? i can't even get back to Flotsam while i'm in the 2nd chapter... it was also said that after ending a quest i could post the glossary entry to facebook and compare the outcomes with my friends. where is that? major battle improvements done in so called 'version 2.0', while the stability of the games is on a beta level. on a high-end PC i still getting crashed to desktop... never gonna buy the witcher 3
It would have worked if their statements on piracy had lulled the illegal users into a sense of complacency. You only need to read the daily "banned" list over at The Nexus to see how many pirates are dumb enough to think nobody will notice ("Hey, does this mod work on the non-Steam version of Skyrim?" seems to be a fairly typical reference post for "admitted to piracy" bans)Zanderat said:
However, embarassing climb-down follows:
On further investigation, it appears that they did use IP to track the pirates, so my argument is flawed.