Control archetypes (artifacts, mass removal and just some unit to win the round) as totally overdominant.
Its normal because in classic CCG, you need to rush them to win but such mechanic don t exist on gwent.
Its useless to try tp build engines/points when everything will be removed with epidemic/scorch/sihil + artifacts
Only deathwish have good time vs those.
Its normal because in classic CCG, you need to rush them to win but such mechanic don t exist on gwent.
Its useless to try tp build engines/points when everything will be removed with epidemic/scorch/sihil + artifacts
Only deathwish have good time vs those.
This is a valid concern, but i do wonder...
Until now gwent have been mainly in a point slam meta (and many were saying that point slam would be the go-to in HC as well, if i remember correctly) and that was bad.
Now control is in a good spot (maybe too good? The meta didn't developed enough to really tell imho) and that's bad.
What do people want from the game exactly? Because i don't really get it.
Seems like the good old aggro face hate/control hate in MTG/HS to me, where someone either complained about how mono red smash everything or Ux counterspell whatever you play...
Until now gwent have been mainly in a point slam meta (and many were saying that point slam would be the go-to in HC as well, if i remember correctly) and that was bad.
Now control is in a good spot (maybe too good? The meta didn't developed enough to really tell imho) and that's bad.
What do people want from the game exactly? Because i don't really get it.
Seems like the good old aggro face hate/control hate in MTG/HS to me, where someone either complained about how mono red smash everything or Ux counterspell whatever you play...
This is your punishment for playing Mill, Sabbath and not giving GGs in open beta
The meta is still somewhat point-slamey. Several cards can get upwards of 25-30 points with the right game state. It feels a bit out of place when most units yield 3-10 points when used alone (3-7 for bronzes, 7-10ish for gold). I've tried slowed paced decks and they simply cannot hold up in R3. The decks finding that little niche where they can end R3 in a brilliant explosion of points pull ahead. There are a few exceptions (some stuff NR can do is a good example) but even the heavy control decks built to keep the opponent board clean work more reliably with some type of 2-3 card point explosion.
It doesn't take long looking at the cards to figure out why the "normal" engine bronze cards are probably under-represented. Most begin around 3-4 point value. Most damage cards are around 2-3. There are quite a few 4-5 value damage cards though. Throw +1 damage pings from artifacts, certain leaders and a number of other stuff and those 3-4 point engine cards get lit the moment they hit the board. It's pointless to try unless you can push them to 5-6+ damn near instantly. Only certain deck builds are capable of doing this, using certain cards.
The only exception to the above is when getting blue coin. Someone thought it was a good idea to let people dump 5 points on a 3-4 point engine card, immediately pushing it well beyond the kill zone. It really should be fewer points and not tied to the board itself at all. If it even needs to exist since hand limit killed CA acquisition early round.
It doesn't take long looking at the cards to figure out why the "normal" engine bronze cards are probably under-represented. Most begin around 3-4 point value. Most damage cards are around 2-3. There are quite a few 4-5 value damage cards though. Throw +1 damage pings from artifacts, certain leaders and a number of other stuff and those 3-4 point engine cards get lit the moment they hit the board. It's pointless to try unless you can push them to 5-6+ damn near instantly. Only certain deck builds are capable of doing this, using certain cards.
The only exception to the above is when getting blue coin. Someone thought it was a good idea to let people dump 5 points on a 3-4 point engine card, immediately pushing it well beyond the kill zone. It really should be fewer points and not tied to the board itself at all. If it even needs to exist since hand limit killed CA acquisition early round.
Control really is ridiculous. I've always hated control, since engines are what make strategies fun, and was kinda hoping at least this HC Gwent would improve on that aspect, but it seems its as bad, if not worse than before.
One of the culprits is artefacts, since they're the new thing everyone wants to try them, hopefully they lose a bit of popularity further ahead.
Also, there are cards that should NOT work as they are right now if we are to have some kind of balance in Gwent, like Regis, which should only give 2 waves of damage on a row, max, but it can obliterate it if the opponent sets it up, which is too easy for the results it brings.
One of the culprits is artefacts, since they're the new thing everyone wants to try them, hopefully they lose a bit of popularity further ahead.
Also, there are cards that should NOT work as they are right now if we are to have some kind of balance in Gwent, like Regis, which should only give 2 waves of damage on a row, max, but it can obliterate it if the opponent sets it up, which is too easy for the results it brings.
I said on another thread they should remove...removal, and only allow locks. Let's see which faction can rack up the most points!
Probably NG
Probably NG
As they remove 1 row, It seems that's why they added heavy control so that you will get enough space to put cards on two rows. Which is definitely bad imo too.
Most ppl have bad time vs control because they put every gold they can come with in the deck and end with a deck full of those 4 provisions bronze, that die in one shot to any other damage bronze, another huge amount of ppl dont even try to protect their engines. But seting aside those ppl who have not adapeted to a more interactive gwent, there is the problem that you described, witch is very true, EPIDEMIC and SCORCH are indeed atrociously good.
Schirru is fine as it is, since he depends on a lot of conditions to trigger.
In my point of view, SCORCH is also fine, more then fine, it takes 12 provisions, you can do other obscene stuff with this amount, but EPIDEMIC is out of line. Its 8 provision and the possibility to add 2 of then for consistancy makes the card very abusive. A quick way to fix the problem is to turn it into a gold card, that would make control eithine less consistant without breaking the viability of the deck. If the card needs to remain a bronze, then making it a 9 a provision to mantain the card on par with golden forfh is a minimum requirement, maybe even 10, altho there are no bronzes of this value.
One thing that should be pointed out is that the excess of eithine decks out there are most because its extremely easy to build around her, different then some other archetypes, so even by fixing epidemic, we will still see her decks in a huge portion of the meta. Another nice point is that its very easy to beat her, she strugles so mutch vs many archetypes, like a proper well built reveal with low creature counts, good deathwish, and she just cant do a thing vs woodland spirit.
I'm trying to track my win rate vs some archetypes that I see constantly and a funny thing is that she is the deck I have most sucess against, currently 69% win rate, altho its less then 30 matchs so not yet a very realible data.
That would be so boring... interaction is what makes HC great.
@magusnigri I am not saying remove or rework Scorch or Epidemic, I'm saying that with the close gap between cars now it's preposterously easy to line up something and burn it to death for huge amount of value. Thus said I can't recall Epidemic seeing so much efficient play since ever, so in way this is a good thing. Problem is, if it is that good the card needs to be "nerfed" into a Gold one.
The biggest problem I see is combining Leader+Artifact+WhateverUnit in one play, making countering some insane combos (Schirru) impossible. On the other side we have Borkh who is nerfed to hit only one unit now, even though with 2 turns timer and Oppo has plenty of opportunity and time to stop him from triggering for sub-par effect compared to the Schirru combo. Still both cards cost 11 Provisions.
I myself hadn't played a lot and am really bad at this Homecoming game, I will admit that (mostly in the part when I forget that there are STUPID cards that are row locked without this being specified with an simple icon on said cards, which we had since W3 Gwent, but also cause I don't feel compelled to try). And games like these are the exact reason I can't get myself engaged with the game. Every time I play a game that plays engaging I'd been hit with a streak of games that were just outrageously infuriating and boring to play.
Control was a bit too much in Gwent the last 6 month - there were too many cards that made the exact amount of Damage needed to shut engines down in one turn which is an even a bigger issue now. Control should not shut immediately engine cards, I think Armor was a good example in that direction. Moving cards by point up or down is also SORT of a solution, but than you get in the trap for engines to become too good.
And here are the Lock cards coming. Remember those couple of metas when Aukes was one of the best cards in the game and auto-include in every NG deck? Even though I was SICK of had to put him in every deck of mine, since Mid-Winter Fiasco I realized that this was for the better. Like, remember that Succubus was a Disloyal card and the only way to shut her down was A-Thunder, cards that specifically did damage to UNITS and not ENEMIES or the best solution - a Lock, cause you had to keep those 2 or 4 points (can't remember her exact value at that time)?
We need more of that and less of "do 2 DMG +1 extra for if it's 6 AM or +2 if it's 6:05 AM".
The biggest problem I see is combining Leader+Artifact+WhateverUnit in one play, making countering some insane combos (Schirru) impossible. On the other side we have Borkh who is nerfed to hit only one unit now, even though with 2 turns timer and Oppo has plenty of opportunity and time to stop him from triggering for sub-par effect compared to the Schirru combo. Still both cards cost 11 Provisions.
I myself hadn't played a lot and am really bad at this Homecoming game, I will admit that (mostly in the part when I forget that there are STUPID cards that are row locked without this being specified with an simple icon on said cards, which we had since W3 Gwent, but also cause I don't feel compelled to try). And games like these are the exact reason I can't get myself engaged with the game. Every time I play a game that plays engaging I'd been hit with a streak of games that were just outrageously infuriating and boring to play.
Control was a bit too much in Gwent the last 6 month - there were too many cards that made the exact amount of Damage needed to shut engines down in one turn which is an even a bigger issue now. Control should not shut immediately engine cards, I think Armor was a good example in that direction. Moving cards by point up or down is also SORT of a solution, but than you get in the trap for engines to become too good.
And here are the Lock cards coming. Remember those couple of metas when Aukes was one of the best cards in the game and auto-include in every NG deck? Even though I was SICK of had to put him in every deck of mine, since Mid-Winter Fiasco I realized that this was for the better. Like, remember that Succubus was a Disloyal card and the only way to shut her down was A-Thunder, cards that specifically did damage to UNITS and not ENEMIES or the best solution - a Lock, cause you had to keep those 2 or 4 points (can't remember her exact value at that time)?
We need more of that and less of "do 2 DMG +1 extra for if it's 6 AM or +2 if it's 6:05 AM".
I liked playing games where you and your opponent were racing to have the best point creation engine. Foltest, Queen, Revenants, Greatswords, I always had good fun seeing which of us can get the higher triple digits and I always hated destruction heavy decks like Scoiatel Spell spammers who would destroy your first 7 cards while putting at best a few 2 point units onto the board.
Which is the other extreme, where you don't interact with your opponent (at all) and might as well be playing a singleplayer game. Both extremes can be problematic for the game.
Personally it feels even more like a glorified rock paper scissors than before, where I keep going round in circles to tech against the most recent deck I lose to only to run into a different counter because of not being able to tech sufficiently and flexibly against multiple things.
I think there's not enough flexible card and instead too many very specific things - eg only destroy an artifact, only lock a unit, only unlock a unit, can only damage immune with untargeted abilities, and so on... Cards which either win you a match or are completely useless - not helped by the limited mulligans.
Like before lock cards could also unlock - now you have to have separate unlock cards like mahakam ale.
I'd like to see some streamlining here, and overall instead of a binary "destroy this or that", have similar mechanics as weather that last for a number of turns - eg disable a unit or artifact for x turns rather than outright removal.
And yes I'm feeling pushed to only play instant value removal or points because engines are in some ways more vulnerable than ever.
For example I tried playing Francesca with Johnny/Sarah and Sages but even with extra fluff/bait engines and artifacts to protect from removal this kind of deck simply doesn't work when faced with heavy removal.
Anyway lets see what they do with the first balance patch as there's a lot of stuff to look at.
I think there's not enough flexible card and instead too many very specific things - eg only destroy an artifact, only lock a unit, only unlock a unit, can only damage immune with untargeted abilities, and so on... Cards which either win you a match or are completely useless - not helped by the limited mulligans.
Like before lock cards could also unlock - now you have to have separate unlock cards like mahakam ale.
I'd like to see some streamlining here, and overall instead of a binary "destroy this or that", have similar mechanics as weather that last for a number of turns - eg disable a unit or artifact for x turns rather than outright removal.
And yes I'm feeling pushed to only play instant value removal or points because engines are in some ways more vulnerable than ever.
For example I tried playing Francesca with Johnny/Sarah and Sages but even with extra fluff/bait engines and artifacts to protect from removal this kind of deck simply doesn't work when faced with heavy removal.
Anyway lets see what they do with the first balance patch as there's a lot of stuff to look at.
I personally think that Eithne is a bigger problem than any control cards we have now.
I'm not saying those cards are not over performing compared to what they should but the real core problem is Eithne at least imo.
Having 3 pocket damage EVERY TURN considering the size of 8O% of the roaster now is just atrociously good.
I would remove her ability to refresh her pins on turn start and make the appropriate adjustement in term of mulligan if necessary. Or even change her ability plain and simple (she's not the most interesting leader in the game anyway).
Also tweak a few control cards obviously but I think nerfing Eithne is the base requirement.
I'm not saying those cards are not over performing compared to what they should but the real core problem is Eithne at least imo.
Having 3 pocket damage EVERY TURN considering the size of 8O% of the roaster now is just atrociously good.
I would remove her ability to refresh her pins on turn start and make the appropriate adjustement in term of mulligan if necessary. Or even change her ability plain and simple (she's not the most interesting leader in the game anyway).
Also tweak a few control cards obviously but I think nerfing Eithne is the base requirement.
Gwent (old one too) doesn't have control, it has removal.
That's a bit of an exaggeration, I know, but with removal being so strong and cheap no one bothers with control. Gwent's main distinction from other CCGs is drawing a big hand and executing a game plan in accordance with those draws. Control should be about throwing a wrench in your opponent's strategy, not dismantling the whole machine.
Consider the following situation:
Opponent playing NR. Anna Strenger, some unit and a shield on one row, tridam infantry on the other. On your side a pinging thingy. If you ping Anna you're forcing the opponent to choose between buffing her or the infantry. That's controlling the opponent, it can be tactical depending on board state and expected plays. If you just zap Anna and remove her from play, there are no longer any tactical considerations, just buff infantry and move on to next card. A simplistic example, but I think it gets the point across.
Outright removal is also less tactical for the person playing it. It's a lot more strategical having to decide which aspect of the opponents game plan you want to hinder than simply killing everything they play.
That's a bit of an exaggeration, I know, but with removal being so strong and cheap no one bothers with control. Gwent's main distinction from other CCGs is drawing a big hand and executing a game plan in accordance with those draws. Control should be about throwing a wrench in your opponent's strategy, not dismantling the whole machine.
Consider the following situation:
Opponent playing NR. Anna Strenger, some unit and a shield on one row, tridam infantry on the other. On your side a pinging thingy. If you ping Anna you're forcing the opponent to choose between buffing her or the infantry. That's controlling the opponent, it can be tactical depending on board state and expected plays. If you just zap Anna and remove her from play, there are no longer any tactical considerations, just buff infantry and move on to next card. A simplistic example, but I think it gets the point across.
Outright removal is also less tactical for the person playing it. It's a lot more strategical having to decide which aspect of the opponents game plan you want to hinder than simply killing everything they play.
She can hit for 3 every turn? I thought it was every round haha
I'm an idiot!
I'm an idiot!
