Remove all Tutor Leaders (Francesca's Mystic Echo)

[4RM3D]

Remove all Tutor leaders. There, I said it. There are quite a few (7) of them:

Spoiler

Francesca's Mystic Echo
Dana's Call of Harmony
Calanthe's Pincer Maneuver
Eist's Second Wind
Calveit's Tactical Decision
Cleaver's Wild Card
Henselt's Mobilization

And, except for Henselt, they suffer from the same issue. Not only does it limit design space, it also allows unpleasant combos for the same reason Summoning Circle was nerfed. Furthermore, it also makes the game more boring having the same kind of leaders, which aren't tied to an archetype. I am not saying all leaders need to have a single supporting archetype, but I do want some more variety.

I am not going to make suggestions for all leaders, individually, but I'll give one for Francesca, who is the worst (read: best) of them all, thanks to the strong Tutor Specials.

Francesca's Mystic Echo => Harmonic Resonance [12]: Charge 3, Give one unit Harmony and trigger all friendly units with Harmony.
Should the ability be too Strong with Fran, it's possible to give it to Calveit, instead, using Assimilate. But it shouldn't be applied to all factions because that would make the leaders, once again, boring.

On a closing note, a few leaders I find interesting (not necessarily competitive, though)

Spoiler

Arachas Swarm
Fruits of Ysgith
Congregate
Deadeye Ambush
Sacrificial Vanguard

 

[Iuliandrei]

What counts as tutoring is kinda debatable, obviously it depends on the card you tutor so in this sense you could say it limits design space. If you could tutor a Rockslide that wouldn't be a problem because Adda can already do that with her ability.
There is a lot of power in taking 2 actions in the same turn, be it tutored or not, Eithne can get 20 points igni with just few pings while Calveit can pull an assassination from the deck and enable an igni this way.

Personally i was hoping that after this decoupling the leader abilities would get a revamp, for a start i'd like to see Meve and Demevend ability merged. Be it with a choose one effect or having an artifact always on board that can shift like Botchling to dictate the boost/charge, i think it would be a cool way to make this ability unique and feels like Thronebreaker a bit.

 

[DRK3]

I dont really consider Francesca and Eist tutors, they dont get their cards from the deck but the graveyard, but i see your logic.

And i cant say i stand for this suggestion, those tutors are some of my favourites and that type of combos is my favourite, i would prefer they would be more carefully balanced. Those unpleasant combos, are also some of the most fun, remove them and the game gets more boring.

 

[InkognitoXI]

I agree, at some point they have to go or be limited further and futher.
The fact that one can just play another good card is just by construction of homecoming (allowing to use leaders and a card in the same turn) too problematic.

Playing another card has always in the games history (and especially homecoming) turned out to be at the very least close to too good.

 

[nedders]

Tutoring is the only thing that makes this game bearable. Without some kind of strategic control over a percentage of the deck I build, it becomes reliant on the initial deal and coin-flip, more-so and worse than ever.

I say Ardal and Usurper are worse for the game, because they interfere directly and unstoppably with your side of the board, which I find inexcusable. All leaders should absolutely only influence the players side, not the opponent.

There probably should be a provision limit on anything a leader can do. For example Cleavers special is based on having a crime heavy deck; Fran can play a 14 prov card, which kind of defeats the point. Eist is similar, though his absolute maximum is about 11 provs, but you're really only going to use him for Dagur, Covenant or Sukrus.

Simplest idea is probably to restrict leaders to something I'd describe as a double-bronze-level play. Ardal shouldn't have a "better than Muzzle", Fran shouldn't be playing Novi, Scorch or Renew. Eist could resurrect a bronze unit each round, maybe. Fran bronze spell, each round. Eithne damage 4 each round. Make the leader ability more interactive, but more controlled.

 

[Guest 4368268]

I don't support this idea just because I don't think it's fair to compare all of them just because they bring a card from the deck/graveyard. I think Dana's call for harmony for example is a flavourful and sensible ability with a deck building cost (that'll grow more interesting and diverse with each expansion I hope) Calveit also comes with some set up/deck building (and can backfire if played poorly)

Also I'm biased against the term 'design space' as an argument just because of CDPRs' usage of it thus far

 

[4RM3D]

I dont really consider Francesca and Eist tutors [...]

Not in the general sense, but their potential is great and Fran with CotF might just as well be a Tutor.

I think Dana's call for harmony for example is a flavourful and sensible ability with a deck building cost [...]

True, she is less of an issue compared with the rest because of the deck building costs. Such costs could also be introduced to other leaders are some form of compensation.

 

[MysticJoey]

i say nay!

 

[akhorahill]

Remove all Tutor leaders. There, I said it

Maybe it is not the tutor, but the ability to play two cards per turn in a one card per turn game.

That's why Portal is insanely powerful as are all the abilities you listed. Mystic echo gets the prize because it can lead to four cards played in a turn.

While we are at it, CDPR might as well address Marching orders into Vigo into triple impera brigade as well.

 

[4RM3D]

Maybe it is not the tutor, but the ability to play two cards per turn in a one card per turn game.

Yes, that's definitely part of it. Those leaders allow for some near unstoppable combos. I am not saying any of it is OP, but it remains problematic.

 

[Mancoon1980]

Fix Mystic Echo. Your dwarf nerf was not enough. No card should be to set up 10 points of removal a turn. I tore my ps4 controller in half tonight facing this trash. I havnt broke a controller since 1988 so that tells you something about how frustrating this is to face. Especially at rank 15. I can't imagine this is fun for your new mobile audience either.

 

[Guest 4368268]

Fix Mystic Echo. Your dwarf nerf was not enough. No card should be to set up 10 points of removal a turn. I tore my ps4 controller in half tonight facing this trash. I havnt broke a controller since 1988 so that tells you something about how frustrating this is to face. Especially at rank 15. I can't imagine this is fun for your new mobile audience either.

I have to ask, what made you break it in 1988

 

[RaynStargaze]

While i think tutors are pretty good theres other pretty good leaders. If anything id rather see the weaker ones buffed.

I dont think the tutor leaders themselves are the problem but rather cards that produce multiple engines in 1 round. E.g. Portal, Waters, Novigrad Justice - making it impossible to adequately react to them yourself before they get out of control.

Tutor leaders do a similair thing but with Eist and whatever the NG woman is called its a pretty predictable strong 1 round play the same way other 1 use leaders have a strong 1 round play.

With fran in particular it is also the problem that due to her hero power allowing her to play 1 of these 2 overtuned cards 2 times in 1 round - it produces 4! Engines in 1 round at which point youre pretty much doomed. OR she can use it to produce double engines in 2 seperate rounds. Its a lot harder to play around overall.

Theres also ways to play portal multiple times which is pretty much as stupid but its harder to set up (e.g. requires more rounds and is overall less consistent) compared to fran.

 

[Duhad]

Personally I think the issue is less in the idea of tutor leaders and more in the way some of the tutor/play 2 card leaders have been designed. Call of Harmony is fine since you have to build you deck in a special way to make it work and even then its best option is to basically insure you can play a key card from your deck if you don't draw it. Wild Card likewise works the same way, just with different restrictions...

But then you have Mystic Echo which is basically just, "Play a high cost gold special twice in one turn." Which is nutty! Even over Pincer Maneuver and Second Wind which are also kinda troublesome, ME is utterly wild since it was trash for the longest time till suddenly a good enough special card was printed that it suddenly became busted!

Honestly I think SOME of the tutors are problematic and limit design space, Second Wind and Pincer Maneuver more or less stand as just blandly 'good' leaders who really don't bring anything special to their factions and can and likely will be troublesome in future when good enough SK and NR cards are printed that interact with them.. BUT Mystic Echo stands above all the rest as something that just HAS to change! It cannot remain in the game without being a massive threat to ANY new ST special cards! And you can't fix it by just making Justice and Waters worse, because all that does is make Mystic Echo unplayable again... Until the next good ST card comes out that makes it once again broken. Its always ever going to be unfairly good or unplayable trash and that's NOT a good place for a leader ability to be in.

In beta Aglais basically did was ME does now, though it could also play ANY special card played by either player. I don't think bring that back would be a good thing, but I DO think that removing Mystic Echo's mechanic from the leader and putting it on a card would be better for the game. Keep the ability in the game, but make it something that you have to play a card to get. Even if that opens up the possibility of this same sort of combo happening with playing a special card, then using Call of Harmony to pull out new Aglais to replay the special card, the fact that it would require putting another high cost card into the deck, making sure you DON'T have it in hand and DO have the special card you need should pump the brakes enough to make the combo a hell of allot less oppressive. And if it ends up being a problem, changing or rotating out a card is allot less troublesome then reworking a leader.

Meanwhile you can then rework Mystic Echo to be something that fits better into ST's game plan in a less oppressive way. Maybe it could be a passive that ups special cards damage making a control deck more viable or something that does something based on the number of special cards in your deck or even just something like what 4RM3D said about giving a card harmony and triggering all the harmony's on the board. Whatever, point is ST having a special leader makes sense, spells and control are part of STs core theme, BUT Mystic Echo should NOT be how that is represented. Its to swingy, to reliable and basically insurers no special card can be printed for the SPECIAL CARDS MATTER FACTION without having to ask, "Is this card over powered if played twice?"

 

[FG15-ISH7EG]

Limiting most of those tutor leaders to bronze cards only, might be an option too. Bronze cards are a lot less swingy than golds and have a pretty clear power cealing.
As a compensation those leaders could get a small passive ability.

Mystique Echo: Play a bronze special card from your graveyard. Whenever you use a special card on an ally damage a random enemy by 1.

Pincer Maneuver: [old text but with bronze]. Whenever you play a soldier on an empty row, boost it by 1.

Second Wind: Play a bronze unit from your graveyard. Whenever you play or summon a unit from the graveyard, heal adjacent units by 2.

 

[Hassene_Gadacha_As]

I only agree for Mystic Echo and Pincer Maneuver.

The other abilities have big limitations enough, but Echo and Pincer they are just too versatile and straight-up 2 more cards in hand with no drawbacks or limitations

They could stay, but they would need a hard, very hard provision nerf

Thay should be glass cannon abilities

 

[nedders]

Had a thought elsewhere, should they just get rid of all leader abilities, incorporate them into new or broken cards and instead have an 11th card in hand that can be played at the same time as another? And it would be hidden from the other player?

 

[Imm0rtaleflame]

Easy fix:
--> bring back Silver color cards and restrict Tutor leaders to bronze and silver

--> revert Call of the Forest to it's true form

 

[YveSteel]

In my opinion, all game features which aim to play multiple cards in a single turn uninterruptedly and without negative tradeoffs are unhealthy for a turn-based game. Such completely unconditional behavior even threatens the very core mechanic of a turn-based game (card for card).
Lets look at a simple analogy: imagine a game of chess, where Black has the one-time ability to move two pieces. Almost certainly in such a chess world Black had to be considered the favored starting position instead of White.

Similarly, competitive decks aren't primarily characterized by their number of favorable card combinations, but first and foremost by their leader ability. Obviously, the "most favorable" (or unfair) leader ability features either a direct or indirect play of multiple cards in a single turn (e.g. direct: Mystic Echo and Pincer Maneuver, or indirect: Roche Merciless and Blue Stripes Commando with Inspired Zeal).
In the case of Nilfgard we note, that Damien de la Tour can be seen as starting point of a conditional, indirect multi-card play, i.e. Damien needs to survive, and the requirements of the subsequently applied leader ability needs to be fulfilled. Such conditional behavior and/or the implementation of negative tradeoffs should be the standard for all existing multi-card plays and not the other way around.

I mean, lets be honest: an unconditional multi-card play in Gwent is the same as is magic in our real world. Yes, it is awesome - but, way too0oo awesome to be considered fair play.


P.S.
In case you didn't notice, but the above discussion also answers the question, why there are so many monster decks of equal tier but with different leader abilities - there exists no unconditional multi-card leader ability for monsters.

 

[Moors-]

Easy fix:
--> bring back Silver color cards and restrict Tutor leaders to bronze and silver

--> revert Call of the Forest to it's true form

Silvers are basically <10 provision cost gold cards, so it could be done anytime, just need to add provision restriction.