Remove Orders ability

[kaalev]

Remove Orders ability

I think that pulling more than 20 strength with first move in the game as well as thining your deck at the same tims is a gamebreaking feature. Not to mention it's limited to a few factions, ST (Leader, Saskia, Roach + silver unit) and NG (Leader, 3 golems + bronze/silver/gold card) to be specific.

That's a hella lot of power to match and usually guarantees winning 1st round with a single card or having a significant card advantage on 2nd round. ST and NG also have easy access to resilient units so the huge tempo gain from this ability can be devastating to their opponents.

Hence, I suggest removing Orders ability completely and replacing with something else. Alternatively adding Orders ability to units for all factions could be implemented but I'm afraid the game would become pretty boring and unfair to certain leader cards. For example, unseen elder needs units to consume so calling him first turn would be quite stupid.

 

[NatoGreavesy]

Wait, people actually use Golems? I tried running them for a day, and wound up milling the lot because they kept clogging up my mulligans and emissary draws.

 

[kaalev]

Wait, people actually use Golems? I tried running them for a day, and wound up milling the lot because they kept clogging up my mulligans and emissary draws.

Everyone and their grandmother runs golems.

 

[Jerush]

Well actually one fog or rain is good enough for those golems. And everyone runs weather now that RNR and drought are OP

 

[MrRagdoll]

While the opponent will most likely win round 1 this way do note that they will loose leader, gold, 2 silver AND 3 bronze.
If you just pass you will have 1 card more or equal based on who started the round.
There is now high chance that you will have more gold and silver units giving you upper hand.

 

[QESiriusWolf]

Using order ability has drawbacks. If you put Saskia in your deck, you will have 1 less gold card (excluding Saskia). So when you are about to draw a gold card you are more likely to draw a bronze or silver insdead (since after Saskia is out there are fewer golds in your deck). Besides, you will have less mulligan options because sometimes you draw Saskia and have to put her back, meanwhile you are not likely to use the last chance of mulling if Saskia is not in your hand, or you might just draw her and suffer a net -1 hand. The same is true for golems, and bronzes are also possible to be drawn by random effects such as rally or some NG spies (Forget their names, wasn't playing in English, sorry).

It's worth mentioning that all decks can use Roach (I've seen him in Foltest in ranked play). Besides other decks can use abilities similar to order, like the 3 hags in Monsters.

If order is really as broken as you think, then maybe everyone should be using them. But that is not true. For example only ST Dwarfs use Saskia in mainstream construct (while ST Spells don't) . Mostly decks that are steady and need to win the 1st game.

Don't think it's broken. It's a fine part of gwent.

 

[frbfree]

As long as Daerlun Foot Soldiers are Melee and Imperial Golems are Melee, this isn't really a problem for Reveal NG. One Frost is all you need to handle that situation.

The worst for the money is Calveit, Imperial Golems into Cahir into Tibor. That's a 43 point opening play, 34 of it Gold, at -1 CA. If you are holding Cantarella in your hand, you are pretty much getting a free round.

The opening ST play doesn't bother me as much, because an immediate RNR or Drought can reverse it, and the card cost is brutal. This would be a better play if Roach still came back from the dead, but since she doesn't, this play isn't nearly as strong as the opening Calveit play.

 

[MooshieMooshie]

It seems less of a problem with Golems and more with Saskia. Golems are pretty high risk/reward, at least in a spy deck. It's almost never viable to use your leader turn one as NG, and if you play the bounce deck you usually have to draw two extra cards before you use your leader, giving you a pretty decent chance of being forced to play at least one Golem off the draws. Add to that they are 3 low strength units and any weather deals with them really efficiently. The benefit of course is that they're bronze so it doesn't cost you anything to play them, unlike Saskia. It seems like the problem with her is she's either going to be strong enough every ST deck will just run her, or weak enough that she's not worth the gold slot in pretty much every deck.

 

[Tschjo]

I think that pulling more than 20 strength with first move in the game as well as thining your deck at the same tims is a gamebreaking feature. Not to mention it's limited to a few factions, ST (Leader, Saskia, Roach + silver unit) and NG (Leader, 3 golems + bronze/silver/gold card) to be specific.

That's a hella lot of power to match and usually guarantees winning 1st round with a single card or having a significant card advantage on 2nd round. ST and NG also have easy access to resilient units so the huge tempo gain from this ability can be devastating to their opponents.

Hence, I suggest removing Orders ability completely and replacing with something else. Alternatively adding Orders ability to units for all factions could be implemented but I'm afraid the game would become pretty boring and unfair to certain leader cards. For example, unseen elder needs units to consume so calling him first turn would be quite stupid.

Not saying this isnt true cause i totally agree. Deploying 20+strength and then beeing able to just pass and your opponent has to play at least 2 if hes lucky but often 3 cards to combat that is insane. But i will also say that NR can fight those plays easily by having a play set of dun banner cavalry in their deck. That means they always get to swing back with 12 power and then adding a card from your hand should do the trick.

Still playing this much power with a single card of which often 12+ cant even be attacked cause they are on gold cards is pretty insane and there is pretty much no cost to it cause using a gold card that way is easily viable and worth it.

 

[RickMelethron]

Wait, people actually use Golems? I tried running them for a day, and wound up milling the lot because they kept clogging up my mulligans and emissary draws.

they're the best NG bronze in the game... of course, you need to run 3 and play your leader as soon as you can; and toss any of them that show up in your hand.

 

[DanielSens]

I think that pulling more than 20 strength with first move in the game as well as thining your deck at the same tims is a gamebreaking feature. Not to mention it's limited to a few factions, ST (Leader, Saskia, Roach + silver unit) and NG (Leader, 3 golems + bronze/silver/gold card) to be specific.

That's a hella lot of power to match and usually guarantees winning 1st round with a single card or having a significant card advantage on 2nd round. ST and NG also have easy access to resilient units so the huge tempo gain from this ability can be devastating to their opponents.

Hence, I suggest removing Orders ability completely and replacing with something else. Alternatively adding Orders ability to units for all factions could be implemented but I'm afraid the game would become pretty boring and unfair to certain leader cards. For example, unseen elder needs units to consume so calling him first turn would be quite stupid.

RED-point for your post !!!

Order ability is totally overpowered!

It was a nice Idea, yes! But every Order that summon more than 3 additional points for bronzes or 5 additional points for a gold is far away from being balanced! (As well Orders should at least block Roach from being summoned.)

 

[Skryba86]

Using order ability has drawbacks. If you put Saskia in your deck, you will have 1 less gold card (excluding Saskia). So when you are about to draw a gold card you are more likely to draw a bronze or silver insdead (since after Saskia is out there are fewer golds in your deck). Besides, you will have less mulligan options because sometimes you draw Saskia and have to put her back, meanwhile you are not likely to use the last chance of mulling if Saskia is not in your hand, or you might just draw her and suffer a net -1 hand. The same is true for golems, and bronzes are also possible to be drawn by random effects such as rally or some NG spies (Forget their names, wasn't playing in English, sorry).

It's worth mentioning that all decks can use Roach (I've seen him in Foltest in ranked play). Besides other decks can use abilities similar to order, like the 3 hags in Monsters.

If order is really as broken as you think, then maybe everyone should be using them. But that is not true. For example only ST Dwarfs use Saskia in mainstream construct (while ST Spells don't) . Mostly decks that are steady and need to win the 1st game.

Don't think it's broken. It's a fine part of gwent.

As long as Daerlun Foot Soldiers are Melee and Imperial Golems are Melee, this isn't really a problem for Reveal NG. One Frost is all you need to handle that situation.

The worst for the money is Calveit, Imperial Golems into Cahir into Tibor. That's a 43 point opening play, 34 of it Gold, at -1 CA. If you are holding Cantarella in your hand, you are pretty much getting a free round.

The opening ST play doesn't bother me as much, because an immediate RNR or Drought can reverse it, and the card cost is brutal. This would be a better play if Roach still came back from the dead, but since she doesn't, this play isn't nearly as strong as the opening Calveit play.

^^^ This. You're giving up a lot of mulligan options by running orders units, especially in the golems' case. You can't safely mulligan your 3rd card if you didn't mulligan one of them away before, and if you get them in hand you're relegated to mulligan them away even if you have other cards that aren't useful in the matchup. You're also pretty much forced to play your leader ASAP or you risk getting a dead draw on any triggered draw ability or between rounds draw.

@frbfree that's a ridiculously strong opening indeed, but it also requires you to have two specific golds in the top 4 cards of your deck and not in your hand. Hardly something you can pull off turn 1 consistently, I'd say.

 

[kaalev]

^^^ This. You're giving up a lot of mulligan options by running orders units, especially in the golems' case. You can't safely mulligan your 3rd card if you didn't mulligan one of them away before, and if you get them in hand you're relegated to mulligan them away even if you have other cards that aren't useful in the matchup. You're also pretty much forced to play your leader ASAP or you risk getting a dead draw on any triggered draw ability or between rounds draw.

@frbfree that's a ridiculously strong opening indeed, but it also requires you to have two specific golds in the top 4 cards of your deck and not in your hand. Hardly something you can pull off turn 1 consistently, I'd say.

Honestly, that sounds silly coming from NG players that have insane control over their and their opponent's deck. Monsters have to deal with 3 Foglets and 3 Crones and risk not drawing Fog card that summons Foglets but I don't hear them complain. Yet you're worried about 3 golems that you can summon anytime with leader.

 

[Skryba86]

Honestly, that sounds silly coming from NG players that have insane control over their and their opponent's deck. Monsters have to deal with 3 Foglets and 3 Crones and risk not drawing Fog card that summons Foglets but I don't hear them complain. Yet you're worried about 3 golems that you can summon anytime with leader.

Who said I'm worried about the golems? I chose to run them for a reason. But they're also a big part of the reason why I don't run daerlan foot soldiers. Too many mulligan limitations.

Not saying the golems aren't really good. Just saying there are drawbacks to running them, and I wouldn't run them on a spy deck, which is actually the deck that has the great amount of control over our deck that you mention. I play a reveal control build, and I have one card that allows me to tamper with my deck. One. And it's a gold.

As for monsters, they don't have to deal with all of that. They will, if they decide to run all of those cards. There's a reason why I never ran fogglets and crones in the same deck. It's the same reason why I don't run golems and daerlan foot soldiers. But by all means, if you want to do so, then go ahead. Good luck with your starting hand, though.

 

[frbfree]

@frbfree that's a ridiculously strong opening indeed, but it also requires you to have two specific golds in the top 4 cards of your deck and not in your hand. Hardly something you can pull off turn 1 consistently, I'd say.

It sounds ridiculous, but is not so much as you might think. The mulligan system is flawed, and if you mulligan properly (Cahir first, followed by Tibor second) there is about a 50% chance (that might be slightly exaggerated, but not much) that you could get them both in the top 4, especially if the leader triggers the Golems that might be before them in the draw.

I would say that in my experience, when I have them both in the opening hand, and don't have to mulligan Golems first, this combo works for me pretty reliably.

I will say, it's better to go second in this instance. If you open, you will get down 2 CA.

 

[Skryba86]

Humm well, I still think it's pretty situational. Having the two golds in your hand and no golems is already something I find won't happen very often. Then even if you do, and you mulligan them out, even with the very strange way mulligans work in this game, there's still quite some probability that they won't be there for calveit.

And then there's also the fact that you use all of your burst power on turn 1, including 2 golds, one of which is one of your best last turn plays, and if your opponent passes you're down -2 in CA.

While it is good to take the first turn, this doesn't seem like it's too strong, IMO. It's kind of a steamroll, and very hard to get up from, but that's about it, I'd say.

 

[pthieu1986]

No Title

Can we stop this madness? This guy go 1st and he pull out 8 cards at a time, thin his deck to 8 remaining cards. His leader ability and favorable cards allow him to choose which card to play, which enable him to use all of the silver & gold cards while other factions have to depend on good luck. One player is able to put all gold cards & silver cards (even all of the 25 cards) onto the battle field while the other doesn't. This is not balanced and ruins the game really.

 

[SkippyHole]

With Saskia and Roach combo, its pretty much fine - you are taking up a gold and silver slot just to burst some power out really early. Golems on the other hand seem a bit unfair - many bronzes are run JUST to thin the deck, so having that happen when you basically just play another part of your strategy (you don't even have to play a card like you do with BMC or Temerian Infantry) seems stupid. Maybe it might be fairer if it was one 9 strength silver that came out as 3 cards or something, or even if they were neutral so they weren't just another part of Nilfgaard.

 

[Nimraphel]

Order mechanic needs to go.

The reasons for why Orders as a mechanic is problematic has been outlined numerous times, mostly on Reddit, but to provide a brief summary:

• Any Nilfgaard player will always be faced with the following question: Do I want to run a 25 card deck or a 22 card deck? The answer is always a 22 card deck. For a ST player it is the same; do I want a 24 (23 if running Roach) card deck or 25? The answer is the same.
• Orders as a mechanic will inherently always present design limitations rather than design opportunities; CDPR can never add more faction-specific (or, God forbid, neutral) Orders cards on top of the ones already existing (Impera Golems and Saskia), except if they want every faction to only have one Orders unit (in which case the first problem outlined is still pertinent). Imagine, for instance, NG also having a Silver or a Gold (i.e. Saskia) Orders unit. The default play would always be to pop your leader first thing every game in order to thin your deck first and foremost, second to provide a tempo swing. It is also why a more reactive leader, like Emhyr, is not seeing play.
• The value of thinning your deck for free is immense (as well as the tempo Orders currently provides as well). The only "challenge" associated with the Orders mechanic is the mulligan, where you might end up with several on hand, but this is a low risk if you know about blacklisting, and the rewards in the form of consistency (and currently also tempo) are far too immense compared to the risks. Impera Golems could even be 0 strength and they would still be run, as any experienced CCG player can testify (and which has been pointed out over and over by the competitive scene).

Orders is a mechanic that inherently limits rather than expands gameplay. Removing it would improve the health of the game, decrease the consistency, power and prevalence of particularly John Calveit Nilfgaard, and would allow much more flexible competitive deckbuilding.

 

[4RM3D]

Nimraphel thread merged

And yes, the orders ability is too good for NG. Though one could argue it's okay for ST because you have to give up a gold slot.